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* sigh* Just Another Day In Heaven

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
That is beautiful. What do you do there, though? I love going out in nature. I love art. That's my out. These things are also my heaven. It doesn't need to be "divine" and "spiritual" but to me, it is. I can describe it. Many artists of different fields can describe it from poetry (as in what many parts of revelation is) and I write poetry, so I understand that... to black and white art and sculpting. I can explain these things in beautiful words and to talk in an place of nature with art would be heaven to me. Yet, how can I describe it without using poetic words, metaphors, and fancy language?

Can't be dogmatic when the Bible is silent. IMO life in heaven will be like life on earth today, without the things that cause stress in our life. You can go out into nature as much as you want to. I would like to take a walk with you one day.

Maybe the best thing to say is, "I don't know."

:leafwind:

So when jesus comes to whipe your tears, is he doing this literally? There are so many people. Then when you are all tearless and worry free, what do you do while you are looking at crystals and sinking in rivers? Are they real rivers? [/QUOTE]

IMO wiping away our tears is a metaphor saying there will be no sadness in heaven.

I mean, rivers, crystals, gold, colored jewels (all in Rev. I read it), gold walk ways, et cetera are all earthly things. So, it goes beyond what we have on earth. How do you describe heaven? Is it a feeling? Thoughts? [/QUOTE]

I am doing this from memory, which is dangerous these days, but what you describe is the temple where God is, no the new heaven and earth.

How do you describe it without earthly terms like what it looks like-jewels, gold, crystals, rivers-and so forth; and how do you describe it without using the human psyche-thoughts, feelings, emotions, things that are part of the body/flesh (in christian view)?

The earthy terms are terms God gave us. They can describe anything that exists, As they describe beauty on earth, they can also describe beauty in heaven. God did not borrow the term "king" from the kings of the earth. He lent them His title so man can better understand what king is and does.

Is there a way to describe heaven without these things?

Not that I know of.

Without worry... that's like taking out reality for a dream. Everything is based on cause and affect. What we do will always cause some stress positive and/or negative. Spiritual world is no exception.

What is true on earth is not true in the spiritual realm.

How can it be, or is heaven described as an desire?

Anything is possible with an omnipotent God. Heaven is as real as earth is. God created of them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The devil? Nah...no such thing as the supernatural boogeyman.

If the devil isn't real, then none of scripture makes sense. Christ coming to earth is meaningless and his death accomplishes nothing.

He is not a supernatural bogeyman but he is called in Hebrew the "adversary"....."one's opponent in a contest, conflict, or dispute". As a free willed creatures, both spirits and humans can exercise their will in all things. To place reasonable restrictions on that exercise, the Creator wanted to ensure that no one went beyond his boundaries by unleashing something unnecessary....a knowledge of evil. As Creator, God was fully aware of what good to introduce to his humans creatures, and what evil to keep at bay. By their obedience he could safeguard his children from harm. But a spirit being made himself God's adversary by abusing his free will. He then induced the first humans to do the same thing. We have been on a downhill slide ever since.

What is your explanation for the situation we face on this earth if there is no devil and an apparently uncaring God? :shrug:

Some of it has merit, especially the stuff about being moral.

Is that all? You see no merit in Jesus' parables and teachings? No value in prophesy? No lessons in Israel's relationship with God? No illustrative value in his temple and priesthood arrangement?

There's a lot more than 10. A total of 613 to be exact.

But God only personally wrote the 10 Commandments.....Moses wrote down the rest. Do you put store by what Moses wrote? Or do you pick and choose?

There is no evidence that the exodus ever happened. Not one shred of anything about a few million people wandering around the area for 40 years. I view it as a campfire story.

I have heard all that before. I believe what the Bible says....I have no reason to doubt it. I trust its authorship.

I believe in free will. We make our own choices and take the consequences, good or bad.

Free will was originally given as a gift...but selfish humans turned it into a curse.....we now have greedy and arrogant humans imposing their will on us, and there is little we can do about it at present. They have power over us, but I don't believe it will be so for much longer.

God, being the creator and all powerful, can pretty much do whatever the heck He wants...which includes giving me an afterlife if that is His choice.

Indeed....and thankful we can be that it is his choice and not ours. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Sounds a bit like North Korea

The head of Nth Korea is a despotic dictator. The head of the universe is a loving and benevolent dictator.

With all the various forms of government that humans have tried, I can't see one of them that works for the good of the people....can you?
If I had my choice to live under the rulership of a loving and benevolent dictator....I would.
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Altfish

Veteran Member
The head of Nth Korea is a despotic dictator. The head of the universe is a loving and benevolent dictator.

With all the various forms of government that humans have tried, I can't see one of them that works for the good of the people....can you?
If I had my choice to live under the rulership of a loving and benevolent dictator....I would.
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But both demand full time unquestioning devotion and praise. I don't do devotion and praise so both sound awful. You can also escape from North Korea.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Yes, I know that feeling
4chsmu1.gif
.....I have reduced myself to two now.



Jesus was resurrected by his Father. (Acts 2:31-33) No one can be resurrected without the power of holy spirit.
If the scriptures say that NO ONE had ascended into heaven except Jesus, why does that have to be untrue? If you understand the ancient Jewish belief about death, then you will know that they had no concept of life after death.


Let me start by saying as much as I respect Jewish theology, they did not get many things right. It i untrue because Enoch and Elijah went to heaven without dying.

Every person who died, both righteous and unrighteous, went to sheol to sleep peacefully until the resurrection. No one went anywhere but to sheol, so there was no need to invent other places for them to go. When Christ begins his rule on earth, he will awaken those dead by calling them from their graves to resume their lives.

They did go there but the story of Lazarus and the rich man shows they were not asleep. The Paradise side(Abraham's Bosom) was emptied when Christ was resurrected.

John 5:28-29:
"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."


That's a tough verse for one with my Sheol theology. It seems to be reference to when Jesus returns but then I have to explain--being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord(2 Cor 5:8). Do you believe when we die we go directly to heaven?

Both righteous and unrighteous come forth from the same place....their tombs. The righteous will be granted permanent residency in the earthly realm of the Kingdom of God, whereas the unrighteous will have a judgment period whereby they can learn about God and adjust their ways. Christ will reign for 1,000 years, after which one final test will determine who gains permanent residency.

There is no second chance after death. After the 1000,years, Satan and his angles and all who were not save are judged and thrown into the lake of fire. It would help if you told me what denomination you belong to.

The incorrigibly wicked will not wake up at all having been consigned to "gehenna"....a place from which no one returns. They will "sleep" eternally....completely eliminated from existence.

IMO that is not Biblical.

Even when Jesus was going to resurrect his friend Lazarus.....the account says:
John 11:11-14:
"This He said.....“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will [a]recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead" (John 11:11-14)

Right. Most times sleep is a metaphor for death.

Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Jesus said he was "sleeping". If Lazarus had gone to a better place, how was Jesus doing him any favors by bringing him back to this life, only to die a second time?

Actually Jesus asks God to raise Lazarus(Jn 11:41).


Job was expressing his hope of the resurrection, one very dear to him because of the loss of all his children. He asked to go to sheol for relief from his suffering, but expressed his faith that he would live again.


Right

All the dead respond to the call of Jesus Christ according to John. Humans cannot wake themselves up from the sleep of death, but Jesus can. Lazarus responded to his call as will all those who come back to this earth to resume a life interrupted. Imagine the joy!
bliss.gif

Only the saved before they die will return to the new earth.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Yes, to me, angels are in heaven because of being created as spirit creation.
David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - and John the Baptizer is also Not in heaven - Matthew 11:11
that is because No one on Earth was called to heavenly life before Jesus died - John 3:13
What Scripture teaches Enoch or Elijah were resurrected to heaven:
Enoch was taken by God - Genesis 5:24 - but taken does Not have to mean resurrected.
God simply disposed of Enoch's body as in the case of Moses - Hebrews 11:5; Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Jude 1:9
None of the people mentioned at Hebrews 11 were resurrected - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' because physical resurrections will take place in the future millennium time of Jesus governing over earth for a thousand years.
Elijah taken in the windstorm - 2 Kings 2:11 - Not to the dwelling home of God, but into the mid-heavens where the birds fly. Our physical atmospheric heavens where Elijah was transferred from one place to another by the wind.
Elijah was still alive on Earth at least 5 years later because living Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram according to 2 Chronicles 21:1,12-15.
Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state according to John 11:12-14
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach un-conscious sleep in death:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, Enoch and Elijah are still asleep in the grave as is King David and John the Baptizer.
Those called to heaven start with the new covenant including those of Luke 22:28-30, and Not those who lived and died before Jesus died.

Your problem is Your don't understand the Scriptures you quote.
Acts 2:34-5 is not about Davis, it is about Jesus
Mt 11:11 is not about when anyone is.
Jn 3:13 means no one has ascended into heaven without the help of God.
Enoch and Elijah were not resurrected. They were taken alive.
2 Ki 2:11b - ...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind to HEAVEN.
Enoch wss taken UP. That means to heaven, not to Sheol.
Those in Sheol are not dead as the story of Lazarus and the rich man clearly teach.
It is usually the SDA who push "soul sleep." Did I guess right?[/QUOTE]

The sinning soul dies according to Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20
Gospel writer Luke wrote the soul can be destroyed at Acts of the Apostles 3:23
The wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7

I do realize a lot of people think the parable or illustration of Luke 16:19 is a literal happening and Not a parable.
Even though Matthew 13:34 makes plain that Jesus only spoke to the crowds in parables or illustrative stories.[/QUOTE]

Jesus did not always speak in parables.

Jesus' dead friend at John 11:11-14 is Not a parable as Luke 16 is.
Jesus' dead friend was a real dead person, and Not an illustrative story as found at Luke 16

Both Lazaruses were real people. Luke 16 is not a parable.

ust as a tornado windstorm can take a person "UP" does Not mean resurrected to heavenly life - John 3:13
Being transported from one place to another by a whirlwind does Not mean resurrection but re-location.

Agreed but the story of Elijah says it took him to heaven.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
If the devil isn't real, then none of scripture makes sense. Christ coming to earth is meaningless and his death accomplishes nothing.

Nope, no devil.

Jesus was born, lived and died. He was executed by order of Pilate as an example of what happens if you try to incite rebellion within the Roman Empire. Jesus was a rabble rouser and was crucified for sedition. Besides, there is more than one planet in the universe. Earth is not unique for sentient beings. The odds are stacked against it. The concept of "Jesus died for our sins, and if we accept him as our savior, then we can go to Heaven," is nothing but a spin on the ancient, barbaric blood sacrifices that primitive people used to believe in. I believe in an omnipotent God that does not need our help in determining who or how people get to paradise.

He is not a supernatural bogeyman but he is called in Hebrew the "adversary"...

In Hebrew, the term is ha-satan which translates into "the adversary" in English. It is not a name, but rather a title.

But a spirit being made himself God's adversary by abusing his free will. He then induced the first humans to do the same thing. We have been on a downhill slide ever since.

Nonsense. God's will is done in Heaven, therefore spirits/angels can't rebel against Him, otherwise it is not God's will being done.

What is your explanation for the situation we face on this earth if there is no devil and an apparently uncaring God?

Our situation is one that we create by way of our actions. We have free will. Bad things happen because some people choose to do bad things that affect others. :shrug:

Is that all? You see no merit in Jesus' parables and teachings?

They have merit. They provide a good guideline for one's moral compass.

But God only personally wrote the 10 Commandments.....Moses wrote down the rest. Do you put store by what Moses wrote? Or do you pick and choose?

God wrote the 10 Commandments according to whom? Charlton Heston? :rolleyes:

I am not Jewish, and therefore the 613 commandments do not apply to me. According to Judaism, which you (as a Christian) seem to be borrowing from, we are bound by the 7 Noahide laws as Gentiles. I am quite sure you pick and choose which of those 613 you follow. Had any bacon, sausage or ham lately? Thrown a football around?

I have heard all that before. I believe what the Bible says....I have no reason to doubt it. I trust its authorship.

Good for you. I worship God, not a book.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That's a tough verse for one with my Sheol theology. It seems to be reference to when Jesus returns but then I have to explain--being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord(2 Cor 5:8). Do you believe when we die we go directly to heaven?
There is no second chance after death. After the 1000,years, Satan and his angles and all who were not save are judged and thrown into the lake of fire.
Only the saved before they die will return to the new earth.

First of all, the setting for Revelation is for our day or time frame - Revelation 1:10
So, the heavenly resurrection did Not take place before the time of Revelation 1:10
Jesus' ' brothers ' resurrected to heaven are the ' first fruits ' of 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
Un-like those who died before the time of Revelation 1:10, they do Not now sleep in death- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54
They are Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' of 1 Corinthians 15:50; Matthew 25:40
They do Not return to the new earth but reign with Christ for a thousand years in heaven - Revelation 20:6

Since only those who 'endure to the end ' are saved - Matthew 24:13, then as stated above, if 'only the saved before they die will return to the new earth ', that would leave out the majority of mankind.
Jesus' ransom covers MANY according to Matthew 20:28. The majority of mankind.
And since ' death ' is the price tag that sin pays the dead are entitled to a resurrection - Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
There is going to be (future tense) a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
It is the wicked who will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Satan does Not get a second chance because there is No resurrection for a living Satan.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
( ' second death ' is the definition of the symbolic ' lake of fire' - Revelation 20:13-14; Revelation 21:8 )
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B, and since Satan ends up in ' second death ', then to me, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
For example, each person in Oz was a member of Dorthy's family. If someone asked me who Dorthy's family was, I wouldn't say "The Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Lion." I know that's what the movie depicts the family as though the question is pretty straight forward. In this case, the answers are given in the beginning and end of the movie so I can name the names the actors played.
The Bible doesn't have that advantage. So the only way I know "who Dorthy's actual family are" is to ask believers. But as long as they give me the Tin Man, Scare Crow, and Lion (Revelations and Genesis among others), I would never know.
So, on that note of comparison, what is the literal side of heaven? Can you describe the literal part of heaven and do you believe this true?​

Since the majority of mankind will live here on earth forever ( the meek inherit the earth ), then there is No way for us to describe the literal part or parts of heaven. Most are never going to be in heaven but inherit the earth, or the earthly part of God's kingdom. However, we do know what a description of a beautiful paradisical park-like garden is.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
First of all, the setting for Revelation is for our day or time frame - Revelation 1:10
So, the heavenly resurrection did Not take place before the time of Revelation 1:10

John was not dead, he was not resurrected. He was in the Spirit, which indicates he was in prayer or mediation and the Holy Spirit spoke to him, and in a loud voice.

Jesus' ' brothers ' resurrected to heaven are the ' first fruits ' of 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
Un-like those who died before the time of Revelation 1:10, they do Not now sleep in death- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54
They are Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' of 1 Corinthians 15:50; Matthew 25:40
They do Not return to the new earth but reign with Christ for a thousand years in heaven - Revelation 20:6

15:20-23 is future. Jesus' resurrection guarantees our resurrection. Christians are also first fruits(Jas 1:18).

Since only those who 'endure to the end ' are saved - Matthew 24:13, then as stated above, if 'only the saved before they die will return to the new earth ', that would leave out the majority of mankind.
Jesus' ransom covers MANY according to Matthew 20:28. The majority of mankind.
And since ' death ' is the price tag that sin pays the dead are entitled to a resurrection - Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
There is going to be (future tense) a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
It is the wicked who will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Satan does Not get a second chance because there is No resurrection for a living Satan.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
( ' second death ' is the definition of the symbolic ' lake of fire' - Revelation 20:13-14; Revelation 21:8 )
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B, and since Satan ends up in ' second death ', then to me, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.

Everyone will be resurrected and as you say, the wicked will be destroyed(Jn 5:29). The lake of fire is not symbolic. It is illogical togive the unrighteous thew same inheritance as the righteous.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
John was not dead, he was not resurrected. He was in the Spirit, which indicates he was in prayer or mediation and the Holy Spirit spoke to him, and in a loud voice.
15:20-23 is future. Jesus' resurrection guarantees our resurrection. Christians are also first fruits(Jas 1:18).
Everyone will be resurrected and as you say, the wicked will be destroyed(Jn 5:29). The lake of fire is not symbolic. It is illogical to give the unrighteous the same inheritance as the righteous.

Yes, agree, John was Not literally in our century (Revelation 1:10), but by God's spirit spoke to him about the future time of Revelation 1:10; 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Yes, Christians are first fruits, and those Christians who comprise or make up those first fruits are called ' brothers'.
The specific ' brothers ' of 1 Corinthians 15:50; Matthew 25:40. They have the first or earlier resurrection before the rest of resurrected mankind because of being of the ' little flock ' of John 10:16, whereas the ' other sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33 'who have already fallen asleep in death' have a later resurrection - Luke 12:32; Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Those of the ' little flock ' are the saints or holy ones of Daniel 7:18; Daniel 7:22; Daniel 7:27

Since there is a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, then the unrighteous can choose to become righteous ones. The majority of mankind have lived and died without ever having the opportunity to know about Jesus so they never had the opportunity to put faith in him, so after they are physically resurrected they will have that opportunity. On the other hand, the wicked ' perish ' (destroyed forever) - 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 82:7

Since the definition of the lake of fire is defined as: second death, then the lake is symbolic of: second death.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' according to Revelation 21:8. Jesus destroys sinner Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
Even if the lake was literal it is emptied-out biblical hell (grave) that ends up in the lake -> Revelation 20:13-14
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
These are excellent questions. I propose we take it one step at a time. Lets consider who Baha'u'llah is and take it from there:)

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

OK, I have checked out the links (thank you) and I see that Baha'u'llah was a follower of Baba and that he is considered a prophet, like others.....Jesus and Mohammad. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

These four topics are listed on Baha'is home page.....

"The Human Soul »
Every human being possesses an immortal, rational soul that passes through this world for a brief time and continues for eternity to advance towards God. Our life’s purpose is to progress spiritually by serving our fellow human beings. In doing so, we acquire the divine qualities we will need in the life to come.

Devotion »
Acts of devotion such as prayer, meditation, fasting, pilgrimage, and service to others are inherent to religious life. Through them, individuals and communities are able to continually reinforce the unique bond that exists between God and humanity.

A Life of Generous Giving »
Just as a candle’s purpose is to provide light, the human soul was created to give generously. We fulfil our highest purpose in a life of service in which, with humility and detachment, we offer our time, energy, knowledge, and financial resources.

Character and Conduct »
The cultivation of spiritual qualities in this world is inseparable from an ongoing refinement of our conduct in which our actions increasingly come to reflect the nobility and integrity with which every human being is endowed. Such spiritual qualities are not acquired through focusing on the self; they are developed in service to others."

Apart from the first mention of an immortal human soul, there is much that we agree upon.
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From my perspective though, I see that the scriptures (the Bible in my case) list God's prophets and their words and deed as having been used by him in directing his people, in specific instances. The apostle Paul relates....
Hebrews 1:1-4:
"Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

Because we believe that Jesus is "the son of God" and the 'last' prophet sent by God to correct mankind, we see no need of any successors. It would be impossible to prove anyhow because the age of miracles is long passed and many wise sages have come and gone in the world's various religions....all with some merit to their teachings.

However, we do not believe that God would provide conflicting prophets and give mankind conflicting books of scripture.

Jesus gave this illustration.....
Matthew 21:33-41:
“.....There was a man, a landowner, who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and erected a tower; then he leased it to cultivators and traveled abroad. 34 When the fruit season came around, he sent his slaves to the cultivators to collect his fruit. 35 However, the cultivators took his slaves, and they beat one up, another they killed, another they stoned. 36 Again he sent other slaves, more than the first group, but they did the same to these. 37 Lastly he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 On seeing the son, the cultivators said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and get his inheritance!’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?” 41 They said to him: “Because they are evil, he will bring a terrible destruction on them and will lease the vineyard to other cultivators, who will give him the fruits when they become due.”

This pictures the treatment given to prophets that God sent to correct his nation. You see that "lastly" he sent his son in the hope that he would be respected....but no, those wicked men plotted to kill him. God would destroy the murderous cultivators and then give the "vineyard" over to those who would "give him the fruits when they become due".

Universalism is a nice concept, but not one that is supported by the Bible.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman.....
John 4:22-24:
"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

If "salvation originates with the Jews", then it is clear that it does not end with them, since Jesus also said...
Matthew 23:37-39:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

The Jews have never made such an acknowledgement. They still await their Messiah.

And even those who do acknowledge Jesus as "Lord" will not be guaranteed salvation. Jesus says to "many" of these ones....
Matthew 7:21-23:
Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

I am sure that God would love it if we all acknowledged him as our Creator and obediently presented ourselves to do his will. (2 Peter 3:9) But we know that "many" will not....only "few" will be found on the cramped and difficult "road to life". (Matthew 7:13-14) It isn't God who made the way hard.

If we do not have the right idea about why we are here, why God made us as material beings on a material planet in such a vast universe, and why the majority of humans at present fail to acknowledge the Creator or want to serve his interests, then life on earth will be a bit of an unsolvable mystery, with an unknown future and only man to look to for hope of relief. Given his track record, that would give us nothing to look forward to.

Heaven and earth exist, but what do we really know about their relationship?

I have one source of truth and one prophet whose teachings govern my whole life. Do you see Bahá'u'lláh the same way that I see Jesus Christ? Or are all prophets relatively equal in your faith?

How do Baha'is see the future if they regard all scripture and prophets to be from God?

Do they seek political office or vote in candidates to further God's will on earth?

Do they celebrate religious holidays? If so, which ones?

Thanks for the info in advance.....
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for your thoughtful and considered approach to the information I provided. It is no easy matter to learn about another person's religion. I appreciate that you have started by identifying points of agreement. :)It has to be the starting point for any interfaith dialogue. Its also good to be clear about points of differences as well. :rolleyes:You have a lot of questions too and that's good. Our respective Faiths need to withstand critical analysis.

I don't want to overload you with information but to have an understanding of the Baha'i Faith or any Faith its important to take the time study it. Once you have the framework with sufficient breath and depth then you will have the answers to the questions you ask.

The best starting point is to consider the life and teachings of the founder Baha'u'llah and so a start has been made.

The next step is to learn about the Bab (literally translated means the Gate).

The Báb | What Bahá’ís Believe

Báb - Wikipedia

You will notice that as is with Baha'u'llah I have provided a link from an official Baha'i website and good old Wikipedia which of course is not written by Baha'is although I'm sure they will have contributed to its development.

Now to touch on some of the many issues you have raised:)

Because we believe that Jesus is "the son of God" and the 'last' prophet sent by God to correct mankind, we see no need of any successors.

Baha'is accept the station of Jesus as the son of God but would see this as being spiritual rather than physical. We uphold the reality of the virgin birth as a Divine mystery. We do see the need for a successor and believe there is extensive evidence from both Old and New Testament scripture to support this. At some point we can investigate further.

However, we do not believe that God would provide conflicting prophets and give mankind conflicting books of scripture.
Nor do Baha'is. However before we address this we need to understand the Baha'i concepts around the purpose of religion and progressive revelation.

Universalism is a nice concept, but not one that is supported by the Bible.
Baha'is would see it differently of course. Once you understand who Baha'u'llah is in regards to scripture the way Baha'is think about this will become clear

The Jews have never made such an acknowledgement. They still await their Messiah.
Agreed. Many Christians await the same Messiah and this is Central to the Baha'i Faith.

And even those who do acknowledge Jesus as "Lord" will not be guaranteed salvation. Jesus says to "many" of these ones....
The whole issue of salvation is a major theme to be discussed at a future date.:rolleyes:

Heaven and earth exist, but what do we really know about their relationship?
Through Baha'u'llah we can know more than we can through Jesus. That will become very clear through a more in depth examination of Baha'i writings

I have one source of truth and one prophet whose teachings govern my whole life. Do you see Bahá'u'lláh the same way that I see Jesus Christ? Or are all prophets relatively equal in your faith?
Yes I do. I see Baha'u'llah as being equal to Jesus and in some ways the same. However Jesus was 2,000 years ago. The revelation of Baha'u'llah was much more recent and so through Baha'u'llah God has revealed a message for the era in which we currently live.

How do Baha'is see the future if they regard all scripture and prophets to be from God?
Baha'u'llah provides the New Covenant not just for Israel and Judea, but for all humanity. Jesus only partially fulfilled the prophecy in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Baha'u'llah will fulfil it completely:)

Do they seek political office or vote in candidates to further God's will on earth?
No. We participate in elections but we are not trying to take it over. It is part of the broken old world order and only the New World Order based on Baha'u'llah's teachings can remedy it.

Do they celebrate religious holidays? If so, which ones?
Yes, These revolve around the Central figures, namely Baha'u'llah, The Bab, and Abdu'l-Baha.

Thanks for the info in advance.....
interview.gif
You're welcome. Thanks again for taking the time investigate the Baha'i Faith

Once you have read about the Bab we can talk further if you like:)
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Yes, agree, John was Not literally in our century (Revelation 1:10), but by God's spirit spoke to him about the future time of Revelation 1:10; 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Yes, Christians are first fruits, and those Christians who comprise or make up those first fruits are called ' brothers'.
The specific ' brothers ' of 1 Corinthians 15:50; Matthew 25:40. They have the first or earlier resurrection before the rest of resurrected mankind because of being of the ' little flock ' of John 10:16, whereas the ' other sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33 'who have already fallen asleep in death' have a later resurrection - Luke 12:32; Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Those of the ' little flock ' are the saints or holy ones of Daniel 7:18; Daniel 7:22; Daniel 7:27

Since there is a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous, then the unrighteous can choose to become righteous ones. The majority of mankind have lived and died without ever having the opportunity to know about Jesus so they never had the opportunity to put faith in him, so after they are physically resurrected they will have that opportunity. On the other hand, the wicked ' perish ' (destroyed forever) - 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 82:7

Since the definition of the lake of fire is defined as: second death, then the lake is symbolic of: second death.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' according to Revelation 21:8. Jesus destroys sinner Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
Even if the lake was literal it is emptied-out biblical hell (grave) that ends up in the lake -> Revelation 20:13-14

I basically agree except after death, there is no second chance and the lake of fire is not symbolic. The second death is the eternal death that comes after the first literal death, then those who were not Christian are thrown into the lake of fire. That is the second death.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Consider: you finally die and find yourself in Heaven. A year goes by and you start taking stock of your life there.




What is your day-to-day existence like?


What do find that's keeping you from being bored, day after day after day---like forever?






I believe there is no time in Heaven nor the perception of it.

I don't remember much. I remember walking through a field of flowers.

I didn't stay there forever since I prefer life on earth. I believe Heaven is like dream life. It has countless scenarios.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
We can't possibly know...

"The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High." Baha'u'llah

I believe it is possible that the B man just didn't know.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe it is possible that the B man just didn't know.

You need to investigate Baha'u'llah's teaching and demonstrate you have understood them before you can meaningfully answer that question.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I basically agree except after death, there is no second chance and the lake of fire is not symbolic. The second death is the eternal death that comes after the first literal death, then those who were not Christian are thrown into the lake of fire. That is the second death.

Yes, agree that second death could be considered as ' eternal death ' in the sense that the wicked are ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7. Eternal death then equals destroyed forever. - Jeremiah 51:57

The words from Jesus' mouth will execute the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 ( execute as in capital punishment as in second death). No resurrection from second death. No resurrection from being executed by Jesus.
No future life for those experiencing second death - Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 3:9 B
The dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 - they feel No bliss or feel No pain.

To me, Jesus has the keys to unlock the Bible's temporary hell/grave according to Revelation 1:18
Since emptied-out hell (grave) and death are both cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:13-14, then there is No one left in vacated biblical hell/grave to be cast into a literal fire.
The definition of the lake of fire is defined at Revelation 20:14 as: second death.
Who ends up in what is defined as second death according to Revelation 21:8
 
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