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The Human Jesus

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
JamesThePersian said:
I find it interesting that you adhere to this belief and yet consider yourself to be Gnostic. I can't think of a single Gnostic group that believed in a purely human Christ and, in fact, if anything they erred on the side of Docetism. That is, the heresy that says Christ, being God, only appeared to be human.James

Well I haven't met every Gnostic group and neither have you.
Plus of course Gnostics where inclined to schism as much as any group really.
But fundamentally Gnostics reject the notion that man can reach God only through Jesus, this is blasphemy, this is cultism.
Unnacceptable to any Gnostic of any description.
Christ was purely human, thats what made him special, he opposed his own animalism and become God like.
Jesus would never ever have said 'I am God' those who said he did are clergy using his divine authority to exert the authority of the church over the people long after Jesus died.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Simon Gnosis said:
Well I haven't met every Gnostic group and neither have you.
Nor did I claim such, but I have read up on the beliefs of the Gnostic sects of antiquity and cannot remember coming across a single one which claimed that Christ was merely human.
Plus of course Gnostics where inclined to schism as much as any group really.
Many of the Gnostic groups were never one to begin with, but you have no argument from me on this.
But fundamentally Gnostics reject the notion that man can reach God only through Jesus, this is blasphemy, this is cultism.
Unnacceptable to any Gnostic of any description.
And unacceptable to Orthodoxy also. Only God, and not man, can jusge a man and we do not state that all non-Christians are damned. All men do come to God through Christ but this does not imply conscious belief but rather that it was the Incarnation that made salvation possible.
Christ was purely human, thats what made him special, he opposed his own animalism and become God like.
Jesus would never ever have said 'I am God' those who said he did are clergy using his divine authority to exert the authority of the church over the people long after Jesus died.
On this we must agree to disagree. If Christ were not God then any hopes of salvation would be in vain, though I don't expect you to accept that belief.

James
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
JamesThePersian said:
On this we must agree to disagree. If Christ were not God then any hopes of salvation would be in vain, though I don't expect you to accept that belief.

Well no not in a billion years.

I dont believe in heaven or hell, God does not judge his own creation like some twisted monster for his own amusement.
What comes from God is God, for God to judge itself is paradoxial and only points out how isolated believers of christianity and islam feel from their God.

However there is such a thing as karma....now thats entirely different.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Simon Gnosis said:
I dont believe in heaven or hell, God does not judge his own creation like some twisted monster for his own amusement.

I think you'd be quite surprised to see the Orthodox take on this. It's very different from the western view that you appear to be railing against.

James
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
JamesThePersian said:
I think you'd be quite surprised to see the Orthodox take on this. It's very different from the western view that you appear to be railing against

Well eastern orthodoxy and gnosticism have similar roots so maybe , maybe not.
Its catholism and its offspring that I despise, perhaps I shouldn't, but I do, I cannot bear that insidiously vile doctrine, the very sight of a pope or bishop annoys me.
Pure blasphemy, saying that only through the papal authority of Rome (because of the apostle Peter) can man find God, utterly political, utterly wrong.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Rejected said:
Then what was the garden of Eden?

First of all, we don't live in the garden of Eden, and it was never intended that we all live there.

The garden was effectively a transitional state where man was introduced to life away from God's presence. God clearly knew what would happen in the garden and it was all part of the plan that Adam and Eve partake of the fruit and be cast out and be cut of from God's direct influence. That's the only way we could really learn and grow for ourselves.

Rejected said:
If god created everything, and evil and suffering exist, then they must have come from god.

How do you explain it?

God didn't create evil. Evil isn't something that is created. Evil comes as a natural consequence of imperfect beings making incorrect choices. And yes I did say imperfect beings. We, God's creations -- even his children, are imperfect beings, but we are here to progress that eventually we may become like him and ulitmately even attain perfection.

Rejected said:
This is why I hate religious debates. I try to make a valid argument and instead of a decent rebuttal all I ever hear is "well, god is mysterious, and thats the way he wants things."

Try thinking about the question for yourselves instead of falling back on what you've been told to beleive.
If you still can't figure out an answer then have the dignity to say "I don't know" instead of attributing it to a mythical, malevolent man in the sky.

OK, someone needs to show a little maturity here. What about my response came across as "mysterious"? I gave responses that were quite logical in attempting to explain why I believe God allows evil to exist. And for your information I'm not falling back on what I've been told to believe -- I honestly believe what I tell you. I don't blindly regurgitate information. I have studied and considered many different ideas and this is the one that just makes sense to me. Let me restate what I said before and please point out what part of this comes across as mysterious, mythical or even malevolent:

- God has given us freedom to choose our actions and behaviors. (That seems reasonable to me)
- He gave us this freedom because it serves as an important part of the learning process. (Nothing too mysterious about that)
- God allows pain, suffering, and temptation to exist so that we can make right and good decisions and progress. (Is that too malevolent?)
- We are strengthened through this opposition. (Makes sense to me)

So what part of that is so mysterious?
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
Polaris said:
- God has given us freedom to choose our actions and behaviors. (That seems reasonable to me)
- He gave us this freedom because it serves as an important part of the learning process. (Nothing too mysterious about that)
- God allows pain, suffering, and temptation to exist so that we can make right and good decisions and progress. (Is that too malevolent?)
- We are strengthened through this opposition. (Makes sense to me)
So what part of that is so mysterious?

:yes:
 

Yasin

Member
The hypostatic union, Jesus Christ (pbuh) being both Man and God may rase some interesting questions, like who died on the cross God or Man?
If God then he is not immortal and if Man then he is not God.

Maybe that explains the phrase:

"God is Dead" (God forgive me for even stating it)

Respectively, Yasin:rolleyes:
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
Polaris said:
First of all, we don't live in the garden of Eden, and it was never intended that we all live there.

The garden was effectively a transitional state where man was introduced to life away from God's presence. God clearly knew what would happen in the garden and it was all part of the plan that Adam and Eve partake of the fruit and be cast out and be cut of from God's direct influence. That's the only way we could really learn and grow for ourselves.

On what grounds to you claim to know the will and plans of god?


Polaris said:
God didn't create evil. Evil isn't something that is created. Evil comes as a natural consequence of imperfect beings making incorrect choices. And yes I did say imperfect beings. We, God's creations -- even his children, are imperfect beings, but we are here to progress that eventually we may become like him and ulitmately even attain perfection.

OK, evil comes as a by product of imperfection. Why would god, in his perfection, need or even want to create something so "imperfect" as man?

Was he lonely? Bored? Did he need an ego-boost, so he created us to muck around with and punish/reward according to his whims? Doesn't sound like a very benevolent, perfect god to me.

Why would he require us to suffer to achieve perfection? Couldn’t he have just made us perfect to begin with?

You say he gave us free will to make decisions as we see fit. Yet he insists on punishing us with eternal suffering for making the wrong choices. Again, not very nice of him.
A little like ancient Rome and the slave gladiators. I’m sure if they really had free will they would have chosen not to fight, but alas, they didn't. You’re telling me I have free will, but at the same time if I don't conform to the will of god then I’m damned. Sure, I’ve got a choice, be a sheep or burn.

Sorry, I think I’ll take door #3


Polaris said:
OK, someone needs to show a little maturity here. What about my response came across as "mysterious"? I gave responses that were quite logical in attempting to explain why I believe God allows evil to exist. And for your information I'm not falling back on what I've been told to believe -- I honestly believe what I tell you. I don't blindly regurgitate information. I have studied and considered many different ideas and this is the one that just makes sense to me. Let me restate what I said before and please point out what part of this comes across as mysterious, mythical or even malevolent:

- God has given us freedom to choose our actions and behaviors. (That seems reasonable to me)
- He gave us this freedom because it serves as an important part of the learning process. (Nothing too mysterious about that)
- God allows pain, suffering, and temptation to exist so that we can make right and good decisions and progress. (Is that too malevolent?)
- We are strengthened through this opposition. (Makes sense to me)

So what part of that is so mysterious?

So, god’s will is no mystery to you, you claim to know the thoughts of an Infinite intelligence, omniscient and omnipotent. Wouldn’t that make you god? Isn’t that blasphemy?
Why would a Perfect Being need to create an imperfect being?
If he's perfect then he doesn't need anything.
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
Rejected said:
So, god’s will is no mystery to you, you claim to know the thoughts of an Infinite intelligence, omniscient and omnipotent. Wouldn’t that make you god? Isn’t that blasphemy?

No it doesnt make him God because the divine part of him is already God, he percieves with his Gnosis....his intuition, his faith.
The Godly part of him already knows....
He observes a spectra of Gods will in his world around him, nothing odd about that, he certainly isnt alone.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
Simon Gnosis said:
No it doesnt make him God because the divine part of him is already God, he percieves with his Gnosis....his intuition, his faith.
The Godly part of him already knows....
He observes a spectra of Gods will in his world around him, nothing odd about that, he certainly isnt alone.

That was just a little jab to keep him grounded. I don’t believe its possible to know the whole will of god and I just wanted his justification for claiming to do so.
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
Rejected said:
That was just a little jab to keep him grounded. I don’t believe its possible to know the whole will of god and I just wanted his justification for claiming to do so.

Well my satanic brother keep jabbing away, be fair though.
He can only express his faith from his perception, all we can do is assimilate and or reject....
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
Simon Gnosis said:
Well my satanic brother keep jabbing away, be fair though.
He can only express his faith from his perception, all we can do is assimilate and or reject....

I never claimed to be a Satanist, but strictly speaking I am an adversary of the church, so whatever.

I know that belief is contingent upon personal experience and I’m not saying that his beliefs are any more or less valid than mine.

I apologize if I’ve been a tab abrasive. I know I get irritated at times and it comes out in inappropriate ways.

I just have a hard time understanding how people can believe things that seem so impossible to me, especially when they claim to have reviewed all the information.

It just seems that humanity in general has a hard time saying "I don't know, but I beleive this to be the truth: (insert personal beliefs here)"

Most people seem so hasty to desert established scientific facts when it comes to religion and, to me, the two should go hand in hand.
 

Simon Gnosis

Active Member
Rejected said:
I never claimed to be a Satanist, but strictly speaking I am an adversary of the church, so whatever.

I know that belief is contingent upon personal experience and I’m not saying that his beliefs are any more or less valid than mine.

I apologize if I’ve been a tab abrasive. I know I get irritated at times and it comes out in inappropriate ways.

I just have a hard time understanding how people can believe things that seem so impossible to me, especially when they claim to have reviewed all the information.

It just seems that humanity in general has a hard time saying "I don't know, but I beleive this to be the truth: (insert personal beliefs here)"

Most people seem so hasty to desert established scientific facts when it comes to religion and, to me, the two should go hand in hand.

Sorry, I thought you were a satanist (I miss interpreted loyal adversary) however being a heretic I technically am satanist lol

Yeah its annoying, but its not without some truth anyway.
As for science and religion going hand in hand...spot on...what could be better?
 

Polaris

Active Member
Rejected said:
On what grounds to you claim to know the will and plans of god?

The same grounds that we claim to know anything about God -- through His chosen and ordained prophets. He also didn't intend on just leaving us in the dark concerning Him or concerning our purpose. He reveals such things to His prophets.

Rejected said:
OK, evil comes as a by product of imperfection. Why would god, in his perfection, need or even want to create something so "imperfect" as man?

Why would he require us to suffer to achieve perfection? Couldn’t he have just made us perfect to begin with?

We are his children, there is a process involved in obtaining knowledge and wisdom. There is a process involved in reaching any degree of perfection. If or when you have children you don't automatically expect them to know all you know. They have to learn, they have to progress. The same is true for us.

Rejected said:
You say he gave us free will to make decisions as we see fit. Yet he insists on punishing us with eternal suffering for making the wrong choices. Again, not very nice of him.
A little like ancient Rome and the slave gladiators. I’m sure if they really had free will they would have chosen not to fight, but alas, they didn't. You’re telling me I have free will, but at the same time if I don't conform to the will of god then I’m damned. Sure, I’ve got a choice, be a sheep or burn.

You are describing a God that is not even remotely similar to the God I believe in. God doesn't "insist on punishing us with eternal suffering for making the wrong choice". I'm not sure how you ever reached that conclusion. I believe in a God who is both just and merciful. He has established laws that we are required to obey, but he also has provided means by which we can be forgiven of our transgressions against his laws so that we don't have to pay to appease the demands of justice. It does however require some effort and faith on our part. I believe him to be much more merciful and loving than you try to make him out to be. I don't believe in this heaven or hell notion of salvation that you seem to imply... I believe that God will provide at least some degree of glory and salvation to the vast majority of his children.

Rejected said:
So, god’s will is no mystery to you, you claim to know the thoughts of an Infinite intelligence, omniscient and omnipotent. Wouldn’t that make you god? Isn’t that blasphemy?
Why would a Perfect Being need to create an imperfect being?
If he's perfect then he doesn't need anything.

I don't claim to know everything concerning God's will, only that which he has chosen to convey to his prophets, who in turn share them with the world (at least those who are willing to listen).

How do you know a perfect being doesn't need anything? Just because God is perfectly righteous and wise doesn't mean that his creations and his children don't bring him additional joy and fulfillment.
 

jorylore

Member
Rejected said:
Most people seem so hasty to desert established scientific facts when it comes to religion and, to me, the two should go hand in hand.

I agree with this statement. And although it's not a science book, when the Bible touches on issues involving established scientific fact, it's surprinsingly accurate.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Hi Katzpur,

I promise I didn't mean to highjack your thread... I've just gotten carried away with a discussion that was a little off topic.

Some dismiss your question as irrelevant because if God can create a world and if God can create Adam then He could certainly make up the difference in chromosome count. But the fact remains Jesus must have had 46 chromosomes, and there must have been genetic information contained in those "mysterious" 23 chromosomes. The question is what genetic information or whose genetic information. Did God just assemble some convenient mix of genes or did those chromosomes somehow contain God's own genetic information? Due to the fact that Jesus almost always referred to God as his father I would argue that it was the latter, not to mention the uniquely divine qualities that Jesus possessed. That suggests that God has genetic information in the first place and therefore must be a physical being, which all seems quite reasonable to me.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
jorylore said:
I agree with this statement. And although it's not a science book, when the Bible touches on issues involving established scientific fact, it's surprinsingly accurate.

Care to cite examples? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not exactly a biblical scholar and I'm curious.
 
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