Why does God hide himself?

PopeADope said:

I ask God to reveal himself every day...the things he reveals, many Christians would tell me is from the Devil...so, I simply don't know

Click to expand...

God gave an answer. First, a warning. Talking to me, He said if someone is without a sincere heart in this matter, then they are practicing blasphemy.

He said to you (words in parenthesis mine). Dark is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. Black is the absence of color. Evil is the absence of good (whether pure evil exists is debatable; evil is choosing that which is not good). You are channeling Satan (an angel) instead of the good. You seek to hear, but you do not because of that which only you know (that which only you know among mortals).

That's it. My recommendation, if this means something to you, is to say the Lord's prayer ten times and then ask God to reveal Himself. Underline emphasis is mine.

Lord's Prayer
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.
Amen.

How in the world can you have faith god exist if you don't know he does?

Can you say it is a fact that god exists if knowledge is not more important to you than faith?

interminable said:

This is clear that right now u have knowledge that 100% your grandmother existed. So do u need to have faith in her existence??? Nope

Click to expand...

Faith means trust in something. It's not what they call "blind faith"; so, if that is what you have, no I don't have that. I have faith/trust in my grandmother's presence and existence because I know she exists and is here. It's not one or the other. It's both.

If you don't know god exist, what is your trust based on? (It has to be something outside yourself-but if it were, you'd have to know it not depend on your trust and your feelings. It should be independent of yourself). My great grandmother exist before me and I know there presence because my family knows their presence and we are all one unit.

I know this so I have a he/ of a good reason to put faith into my family and family in spirits because of this.

interminable said:

And notice that God created animals with passions without reason
And angels with reason without passion
And human with both of them

Click to expand...

I don't agree animals are without reason anymore than I believe all humans have reason. We are all on the same level. Angels don't exist.

interminable said:

God hasn't promised hell or heaven to animals and angels since they are who they are.
But human being since has ability to choose one day should be responsible for his acts.

Click to expand...

I rather for animals to go to heaven if that be the case because animals are pure and live simple. That, to me, is more reasoning and rational (even if we are too complex to understand it), than my trying to figure out why you say something is real but you only trust it is but don't know it is because you don't want to base your belief in knowledge but just on trust.

interminable said:

No because before we become a creature we didn't exist.
U can't say to your parent why did u create me in summer I liked to be born in winter.

Click to expand...

We can say, I have a parent, I know I have a parent, and because I know I trust in/have faith in my parent and what my parent did for me growing up to where I would not be alive today (no pun) without my parent. If I told my parent, I just trust her but I don't acknowledge her actual existence, she could be way on the moon it wouldn't matter. That relation-ship helps nurture a full growth in a person.

I do not see god as an exception to this.

Yes, I do tell my parent, "If I were born on Christmas, you don't have to use up money for us on food because the presents would be both Christmas and Birthday. What child would know the difference?

I don't know why believers can't question their god especially when they say god is their parent and creator. Why have an intermediary (a book, a person, a prophet, an angel), and just ask god directly.

interminable said:

So we face with a fait accompli

In this case we should see what He wants from us. He wanted us to use our reason and trust his prophets and by practicing his orders gain salvation.
U know many Muslims in the middle of war ran some even didn't participate. Even when our prophet was in the battle. This is how God tests people

Click to expand...

That's your specific belief. If someone did not have a belief and just believed in a creator, he or she can still build a relationship with that creator. I mean, I haven't met my great grandmother but I finally got a picture of her, her husband, and our whole family finally in the black and whites!

That doesn't mean I can't build a relationship. It just means there are different ways to do so and not all are through people (prophets, believers, and so forth). It is your relationship with the creator.

I don't worship my family, so I don't understand the concept of worship. Sacrifice to an extent, worship, no.

james bond said:

I don't think I'm ignoring the question

Click to expand...

Please understand that my comment was not meant to be about you, but about the two gentlemen mentioned in the story at the beginning of the video you posted.

james bond said:

Click to expand...

One of those gentlemen decided to believe something despite the contradictions he could not address, and the other decided to take it upon himself to study and learn more about scripture and his faith. It is interesting (to me anyway) that the person who decided to study more became an agnostic. I think the intended take away message from that part of the video is that you should not study the bible too deeply or else you might end up losing your faith. I think that is an interesting point.

PopeADope said:

Then why do I feel 100% convinced that God wants me to preach against the Koran?

Click to expand...

Do you know what motivates these feelings? Something you read or heard or someone told you.?

It is important our motives are just and fair so I think it's important to ask ourselves why we want to oppose another Faith.

loverofhumanity said:

Do you know what motivates these feelings? Something you read or heard or someone told you.?

It is important our motives are just and fair so I think it's important to ask ourselves why we want to oppose another Faith.

Click to expand...

Yes, the bigotry motivates those feelings. I see it in the Bible and it disgusts me as well!

O

Ouroboros said:

Hah! That's very true.

Click to expand...

Wierd experience isn't it!! My avatar the Cheshire cat is basically because of the line "everyone here is mad, and I am not all there myself. " btw I always take the ouroboros as self referentialism or recursion. JC himself (Joseph campbell) said " that this" , as he pointed at his cranium said "it is a secondary organ that tends to falls in love with itself."
The ouroboros turned slightly can also be seen not, self referential, but like a spring. I think the Phoenix is symbolic of that. Which BTW Nietzsche was into eternal return which ironically he never read pope Clement I in 80ad write about the Phoenix. Apparently the earliest part of the church envisioned themselves as " the order of the Phoenix". Jk rolling wrote Harry potter while she was attending the church of Scotland. So art, is for me sane, philosophy we end up with the mentally ill Nietzsche or the very dead David Foster Wallace. Imterestimg as to why the Phoenix is not the main symbol of Christianity. I think it has to do with early empiricism development which we call science today.

james bond said:

God gave an answer. First, a warning. Talking to me, He said if someone is without a sincere heart in this matter, then they are practicing blasphemy.

He said to you (words in parenthesis mine). Dark is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. Black is the absence of color. Evil is the absence of good (whether pure evil exists is debatable; evil is choosing that which is not good). You are channeling Satan (an angel) instead of the good. You seek to hear, but you do not because of that which only you know (that which only you know among mortals).

That's it. My recommendation, if this means something to you, is to say the Lord's prayer ten times and then ask God to reveal Himself. Underline emphasis is mine.

Lord's Prayer
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.
Amen.

Click to expand...

Thank you! I don't know if you have spoken exactly what the Lord told you or if it was your imagination, but I will try to be as sincere as possible and pray the Lord's prayer.

As far as I know I'm sincere, just confused.

George-ananda said:

I believe they are objectively true or they wouldn't be my beliefs.

Click to expand...

I don't care what you believe, I care what you can prove. Kids who believe in Santa Claus believe he is objectively real. They're just wrong.

How a person feels is very relevant to that person but feelings should not sway our objective consideration. I want to know the truth, not what makes me feel good.

Click to expand...

Then where is your objective evidence that your particular deity exists in factual reality? Remove it entirely from emotional consideration, I want to see the facts, just the facts and only the facts. And I also want to know how you objectively determined these facts without any appeal to emotion.

I believe we certainly do or I wouldn't be a theist (pantheist actually) from objective consideration.

Click to expand...

Yet lots of people claim it, they just can't back it up.

interminable said:

We don't have rational arguments or u don't consider them rational??

If causality isn't rational so what's rational?
I saw how atheists evade to answer my questions. Unfortunately since they have no scruple they reject everything easily

Click to expand...

You don't have rational arguments. You just spin them so you think you do. There are tons of problems with Kalam, but the one thing Kalam can never do, even if it is accurate, which it isn't, is demonstrate that *YOUR* deity is the one responsible. You can't get from point A to point B rationally. It always requires a leap of faith and faith, by definition, is not rational. And people reject your arguments because your arguments are logically faulty. You don't want to accept it, but your acceptance is not required for truth.

Cephus said:

I don't care what you believe, I care what you can prove. Kids who believe in Santa Claus believe he is objectively real. They're just wrong.



Then where is your objective evidence that your particular deity exists in factual reality? Remove it entirely from emotional consideration, I want to see the facts, just the facts and only the facts. And I also want to know how you objectively determined these facts without any appeal to emotion.



Yet lots of people claim it, they just can't back it up.

Click to expand...

This conversation is going in circles. The bottom line is I believe in pantheism based on a consideration of the evidence and argumentation from all sides. And you determine what your beliefs are after considering all evidence and argumentation from all sides.

PopeADope said:

Thank you! I don't know if you have spoken exactly what the Lord told you or if it was your imagination, but I will try to be as sincere as possible and pray the Lord's prayer.

As far as I know I'm sincere, just confused.

Click to expand...

In light of this reply, do you think talking to an elder in faith and/or discussing it more inclusively in DRs would help as well?

I mean elders as in any person who you feel are called from god to help you out, type of thing? Or however defined.

I would also set aside the quran. From what I read of the quran, its not bible friendly. But then neon orange doesnt go well with silver and pink glitter but by themselves, its fine. Well, for some.

Dont read either books and just talk to the creator. That may help. And if that all doesnt work, take a break from RF, ignore people for your sanity, or stick with specific forums if you dont want to get more confused than now.

《《--- tricks from the trade

George-ananda said:

This conversation is going in circles. The bottom line is I believe in pantheism based on a consideration of the evidence and argumentation from all sides. And you determine what your beliefs are after considering all evidence and argumentation from all sides.

Click to expand...

Of course it is, because you have nothing to present but your claims. There is no actual evidence.

Carlita said:

In light of this reply, do you think talking to an elder in faith and/or discussing it more inclusively in DRs would help as well?

I mean elders as in any person who you feel are called from god to help you out, type of thing? Or however defined.

I would also set aside the quran. From what I read of the quran, its not bible friendly. But then neon orange doesnt go well with silver and pink glitter but by themselves, its fine. Well, for some.

Dont read either books and just talk to the creator. That may help. And if that all doesnt work, take a break from RF, ignore people for your sanity, or stick with specific forums if you dont want to get more confused than now.

《《--- tricks from the trade

Click to expand...

Talking to elders can be helpful if they are filled with the spirit of God, meaning if they have more than just what they read in some book, but actually are enlightened and have the spirit guiding their thoughts and responses.

I knew a lady once (who lives in another state) who would pray in tounges and have visions that pertained to things that were going on with me.

She had something more than most people have, so I often called her and prayed with her. Yes, talking to such people is helpful. I don't know anyone like that currently or nearby.

PopeADope said:

Talking to elders can be helpful if they are filled with the spirit of God, meaning if they have more than just what they read in some book, but actually are enlightened and have the spirit guiding their thoughts and responses.

I knew a lady once (who lives in another state) who would pray in tounges and have visions that pertained to things that were going on with me.

She had something more than most people have, so I often called her and prayed with her. Yes, talking to such people is helpful. I don't know anyone like that currently or nearby.

Click to expand...

I hear what you're saying. There are plenty of religious folk here and I only met three that I would consider actually following his/her religion and the rest growing in faith to get to that point of "rest." What they all have common, though a cliche, is they probably all gone through what you are doing now. Who knows....

but yesterday I was cleaning up my apartment. It's pretty small. I used to have a daily affirmation calendar with inspirational comments and so forth. So I found a few sticking out and one said (before I threw it away earlier, good timing) "Find something positive in another person's opinion." or something similar. So if someone is saying something critical about the creator, find something positive in that statement even if it's "oh, that is his opinion and that is okay." Remember to put ands not buts.

I read and try to write more often, and a author gave tips on how to write during her Zen Coming Out days. Natallie Goldberg, in her book Writing Down the Bones, says that when we (she is referring to women) put "buts" in our sentences, its not only decretiting ourselves as women (or minorities, as a whole), on this topic, it's also making us see "them vs. us" and not realizing that "we are the ones in war-we are the ones doing the killing-we is not a replacement for they." Type of thing.

So my point, sorry, is try not to brush by people who may not look inspired or have that feeling of inspiration. I mean, I got a reading from a Santera, I know nothing about the religion, and I had more connection with someone I did not know from a religion I probably would have never thought of going into than the Catholic faith I had been practicing and been intimate my whole life all because of that small, ten minute conversation of talking about the spirits. Doesnt mean Catholics have less Jazz any more than the rock band down the street.

I'm serious with these puns, though. Try to see some positivity even if you have to write it down. If someone calls you a name, let yourself go through the emotions, grab a tea, take a couple of days to wait it off, sit down, and then think of something positive.



I think this exercise will help in finding spiritually enlightened people around your area. A couple of themes I read throughout a lot of religious text is, they won't be "in your face" when you see them. The Buddha puts responsibility in action and what you do to see these people. Christianity puts more responsibility in observation and waiting so that god can show you. Both of them (you-religion and he-religion) requires patience.

Just using The Buddha as an example. In between time, pray. I wish people (including us) people would trust each other enough to where we can actually help people online not just in person. But that's a dead man's wish.

Cheers

PopeADope said:

Yes, the bigotry motivates those feelings. I see it in the Bible and it disgusts me as well!

Click to expand...

I am a Bahá'í not a Muslim or a Christian but we believe these are the Word of God.

We only have beautiful and noble understandings of both the Bible and Quran that makes them more precious to us.

interminable said:

Besides for thousands of time I repeated that God is immaterial and can't be seen by material things

Click to expand...

If God is immaterial how can he perform miracles on a physical plane?

interminable said:

U have already gained certainty about it

Click to expand...

I like certainty, certainty is truth.

interminable said:

Besides for thousands of time I repeated that God is immaterial and can't be seen by material things

Click to expand...

If God cannot be seen by material things, how do you know God exists? You have absolutely no way of objectively verifying this belief.

PopeADope said:

So, God must have a reason for hiding himself and hiding the truth. A lot will say, the truth isn't hidden, just read the Bible and the Koran. I've read them both, and the truth is hidden. Both books contain verses that say the opposite of what other verses say, leading people to opposite conclusions. Much of the Bible is hyperbole, poetry, parable, allegory, and symbolic, leading to God only knows how many conflicting interpretations. It simply isn't clear. The Koran severely contradicts itself. I'd be happy to provide a list of verses from the Koran that justify ISIS atrocities.

Even if the Bible and Koran contained clear instruction that didn't contradict itself, that still isn't enough. Everyone is different. Many of us need more than a book. We need clear instruction on what to do personally with our lives.

If God would just leave us clear messages every now and then, imagine how much good it would do. Imagine if every heretic heard the voice of God correcting them and telling them their errors. There wouldn't be so much division and confusion.

How many atheists would still be atheist if God was speaking clear messages to them and telling them what to do with their lives? Even if God just left a message in the sky once every 10 years, do you think even 1% of the world's population would still be atheist? Clearly God wants there to be Atheists.

I pray every day that God would tell me what to do with my time and my life because I simply don't know. I'd like to be doing with my time, what he/she wants me to do with my time. No matter how much I pray for those instructions, I don't get them. How is that benefiting me for God to refuse to give those instructions? If it does no good, and in fact does harm to the world, why does God do it?

What good does God hiding himself/herself do our world? If it doesn't do any good, then why does he/she do it?

Click to expand...

because i only pull it off for a few that want it bad enough.

The answer to this OP's quest has to do with the word "Stop".

If, you for example, misplaced your eye glasses, you would search diligently until you found them. And if you didn't find them, the thought would continue to hound you until you did find them or got a new pair. At that point your search would stop.

Similarly, God's Spirit beckons us continuously within our spirits by all our surroundings, our relationships and our actions.
Had we all the answers to and of those three things, we'd stop wondering, searching and frankly, be bored to death.

But, if one searched to find what God means in our lives, we'd find Him to be loving, comforting and never ending attempts to know more about Him.
Now, God is not hidden that He can't be found, be it whatever religious beliefs one might find one self in, because He is not bound by any human attempts to label Him as but by only one thing........LOVE.

If, you have love in your religious beliefs you will have found God because the very essence of His existence is love.

If, you can not exercise love, regardless of religious beliefs, than God is hidden from you........by you....... and not by Him.

Don't stop.........keep on searching for there is a wealth of information that will entertain you for the rest of your earthly life........for the better of your existence.

Blessings, AJ

Carlita said:

How in the world can you have faith god exist if you don't know he does?

Can you say it is a fact that god exists if knowledge is not more important to you than faith?

Click to expand...

Knowledge is something in your mind
But faith is something that its effect will appear in your heart
And this is very important
By death knowledge will be gone but that's not true about faith

To prove that there is a good example

Most of the people fear from sleeping near a dead person in a dark house
While they know this corpse can't do anything
This because they know he is dead but their hearts haven't accepted it

Faith means trust in something. It's not what they call "blind faith"; so, if that is what you have, no I don't have that. I have faith/trust in my grandmother's presence and existence because I know she exists and is here. It's not one or the other. It's both.

If you don't know god exist, what is your trust based on? (It has to be something outside yourself-but if it were, you'd have to know it not depend on your trust and your feelings. It should be independent of yourself). My great grandmother exist before me and I know there presence because my family knows their presence and we are all one unit.

Click to expand...

So as I explained we know god exists
Because causality proves his existence and what is more than causality as an logical argument???

Right now I know god exists because of some logical argument but it doesn't mean that my heart accepted that too.

By practicing religion's order and purification of soul A man can gain certainty

I know this so I have a he/ of a good reason to put faith into my family and family in spirits because of this.



I don't agree animals are without reason anymore than I believe all humans have reason. We are all on the same level. Angels don't exist.

Click to expand...

Reason is the ability to understand good and bad.
Do animals have this ability? Or they just act according to their distinctions?

I rather for animals to go to heaven if that be the case because animals are pure and live simple. That, to me, is more reasoning and rational (even if we are too complex to understand it), than my trying to figure out why you say something is real but you only trust it is but don't know it is because you don't want to base your belief in knowledge but just on trust.

Click to expand...

Gnostics strictly reject philosophical arguments about understanding the nature and the concept of existence
Why?
Because they say philosophical arguments are best for beginners not for those who want to reach certainty

We can say, I have a parent, I know I have a parent, and because I know I trust in/have faith in my parent and what my parent did for me growing up to where I would not be alive today (no pun) without my parent. If I told my parent, I just trust her but I don't acknowledge her actual existence, she could be way on the moon it wouldn't matter. That relation-ship helps nurture a full growth in a person.

I do not see god as an exception to this.

Yes, I do tell my parent, "If I were born on Christmas, you don't have to use up money for us on food because the presents would be both Christmas and Birthday. What child would know the difference?

I don't know why believers can't question their god especially when they say god is their parent and creator. Why have an intermediary (a book, a person, a prophet, an angel), and just ask god directly.

Click to expand...

We Shia ask from our prophet and our imams but we believe God is the only creator and by his permission some infallible personalities can be asked too.

Actually we believe they are alive and can cure people as they do
There are lots of people in holy shrine mashhad in Iran have been cured just because they asked remedy from our imam
But this is just because God let them to do

That's your specific belief. If someone did not have a belief and just believed in a creator, he or she can still build a relationship with that creator. I mean, I haven't met my great grandmother but I finally got a picture of her, her husband, and our whole family finally in the black and whites!

That doesn't mean I can't build a relationship. It just means there are different ways to do so and not all are through people (prophets, believers, and so forth). It is your relationship with the creator.

I don't worship my family, so I don't understand the concept of worship. Sacrifice to an extent, worship, no.

Click to expand...

Nope
God sent some prophets so u and me should act according to god's will and order not ours

There are many people that have their special relationship with God but r all of their actions true?
Is god satisfied with them???
How can we understand He loves us?

Just to believe in him and his prophets not others