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Who does God want the Antichrist to be?

Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Janet Waters said:
You have made quite of few theological assumptions that have caused to you to be out in left field. Most of the above.....I don't even know what to say about it! The headings don't really make any sense and I 'm not sure what the point is for 1. a, 2. a, 3. a, and 4. a.

1. b, c WRONG
2. b, c WRONG
3. b WRONG
4. b WRONG
Click to expand...


Points proven.

Your god is not God. You have a surmountable force, being worshipped alongside other surmountable forces. This is no longer monotheism. You also ignore inescapable logic, when it comes to evident Law.


None of these things were assumptions, but rather scientific and logical consistencies. You cannot refute any aforementioned a) bulletpoint directly, with clear, logical reasoning. Bulletpoints b) and c) are logical necessities.
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Janet Waters said:
You have made quite of few theological assumptions that have caused to you to be out in left field.
Click to expand...

God Himself said that you act according to your faculty. Your faculties permit your ignorance of this fact, and its evidence in everyday life.


In any case, it's always interesting to converse with people who are steadfast in illogical dogma.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
omega2xx said:
It is a FACT that those who live by the Bible are the only ones who Are free.
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I remember thinking like that. But, truthfully, then I could not see my own shackles, and the chains weighed me down heavily.
loverofhumanity said:
But we should discriminate and have a discerning eye between what the Holy Books teach and what the leaders of religion teach.
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What it instructs? Killing a man who picks up sticks on the Sabbath, kill your kids if they worship other gods, kill your wife if she isn't a virgin on your wedding night, kill homosexuals. Your god is angry and jealous.
 
Janet Waters

Janet Waters

Member
Sleeppy said:
God Himself said that you act according to your faculty. Your faculties permit your ignorance of this fact, and its evidence in everyday life.


In any case, it's always interesting to converse with people who are steadfast in illogical dogma.
Click to expand...


Give me the book, chapter, and, verse saying, "God said, "You act according to your faculty." I have only talked about the DOCTRINES coined and taught out of the Bible.....I do not support present day dogmas (madmade theories about what people want the Bible to say) no matter how clever.
 
Janet Waters

Janet Waters

Member
Sleeppy said:
Points proven.

Your god is not God. You have a surmountable force, being worshipped alongside other surmountable forces. This is no longer monotheism. You also ignore inescapable logic, when it comes to evident Law.
Click to expand...

Do you see the danger in using terms that are not Biblical and then claiming it's source is taken straight from the Bible?

No where in the Bible does it say.....Trinity or Monothesism. Those terms are THEORIES (not DOCTRINES) about what people have come to believe that the Biblie is "trying" to teach. Just stick to Doctrine and don't take the leap to the later-created Dogmas (needed to justify other misunderstood beliefs). This is how all the confusion started and the need for thousands of different churches to emerge....to teach the "correct" truths.

Yes.....you may THINK......that the Trinity THEORY correctly describes the Godhead Doctrine.....but why the need to change the term? Because the incorrect THEORY (dogma) is what you are talking about not the true Biblical Doctrine.

What about the Monotheism claim? Do you realize that over the course of compiling the Bible.....that anti-Biblical theory....was used as the standard when deciding to alter "unclear" verses in describing God? Then if leaving those "unclear" verses one would have to create another dogma to explain what was considered "unexplainable." This sort of thing is what Timothy, Titus, and Peter warned us of doing....."Not giving heed to Jewish FABLES, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

Other FABLES warned about by the Bible: said:
1 Timothy 1:4
4 Neither give heed to FABLES and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Timothy 4:7
7 But refuse profane and old wives’ FABLES, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Timothy 4:4
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto FABLES.

Titus 1:14
14 Not giving heed to Jewish FABLES, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised FABLES, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
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Even the Jewish Scribes struggled to apply such "Monotheistic standards" to the writings of the prophets and not be tempted into rewording the "unclear" (unclear to them) verses. Even though as Scribes they were not authorized to alter the "words of God" penned by prophets who knew God and could describe him. These Scribes were afraid of "the confusion" that might make them appear just like all the "polytheistic" Nations surrounding them.

Sleeppy said:
None of these things were assumptions, but rather scientific and logical consistencies. You cannot refute any aforementioned a) bulletpoint directly, with clear, logical reasoning. Bulletpoints b) and c) are logical necessities.
Click to expand...

Not according to the Biblical Scriptures....only according to your assessments ABOUT the theories and dogmas ABOUT the scriptures. There is a big difference between those three assessments.
 
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Janet Waters

Janet Waters

Member
Shadow Wolf said:
I remember thinking like that. But, truthfully, then I could not see my own shackles, and the chains weighed me down heavily.

What it instructs? Killing a man who picks up sticks on the Sabbath, kill your kids if they worship other gods, kill your wife if she isn't a virgin on your wedding night, kill homosexuals. Your god is angry and jealous.
Click to expand...


You do realize that you are confusing the OLD COVENANT (which was Judaism of the Old World and it was a Theocrasy) with the NEW COVENANT (created for Christians in the New World ---it not being a Theocrasy).

Your assertion is the equivalent to the religious standards used during the Mid-Eval Dark Ages in Europe and applying those same cultural standards to our current society in the New World in America. Those "old wives' tales" [culturally acceptable beliefs and standards] of the past may filter into our society from time to time.....however they are quickly disseminated.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Janet Waters said:
You do realize that you are confusing the OLD COVENANT (which was Judaism of the Old World and it was a Theocrasy) with the NEW COVENANT (created for Christians in the New World ---it not being a Theocrasy).
Click to expand...
Jesus said, at least a few times, he did not come to do away with the law, not a word of the law is to be changed or lessened, and there will be consequences for those that do.
Janet Waters said:
Your assertion is the equivalent to the religious standards used during the Mid-Eval Dark Ages in Europe and applying those same cultural standards to our current society in the New World in America. Those "old wives' tales" [culturally acceptable beliefs and standards] of the past may filter into our society from time to time.....however they are quickly disseminated.
Click to expand...
It's still a fact those things are in the Bible, and commanded by the Bible. It's the same book that today is used to restrict the rights of non-Conservative Christians. Not all things "have been fulfilled," thus, if we truly follow Biblical law, the leader who enforced it would be considered a monster to the rest of the world.
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Shadow Wolf said:
I remember thinking like that. But, truthfully, then I could not see my own shackles, and the chains weighed me down heavily.

What it instructs? Killing a man who picks up sticks on the Sabbath, kill your kids if they worship other gods, kill your wife if she isn't a virgin on your wedding night, kill homosexuals. Your god is angry and jealous.
Click to expand...

I'm a Bahá'í and we have none of those such laws but you should quote from the Holy Books because there are many man made laws and dogmas that do not originate from the Bible or Quran which only teach good not evil.

So do you have references you can provide please?
 
M

Marty

Member
PopeADope said:
So there is so much end-time hysteria and talk about some false prophet who will rule the world.

Is the Antichrist called to be a good guy or a bad guy? Do you honestly think God wants him to be something other than what prophecy States he will be?

If he's just being what God wants him to be, God clearly wants him to have followers, so what's wrong with following Him?
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To begin with, God doesn't WANT the antichrist to be anything. He said there would BE antichrist, not AN antichrist, but MANY ANTICHRISTS. And no, they won't "rule" the world, since Satan is the ruler of the world, and has been for thousands of years.

And "the antichrist" is the entire group of those who are antichrist. It refers to all of them, not just one individual. Anywhere in the scriptures. 1John 2:
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.

If you take what God's word SAYS, instead of what religions CLAIM it says, you will begin to understand a lot more of God's word.
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Exodus, Leviticus, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, if you say you need references of this you are basically admitting you have not read the Bible.
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Those laws were relative not absolute. And relative only to the age in which they revealed. This subject is addressed directly in Bahá'í scripture.

"Consider, could the Law of the Old Testament be enforced at this epoch and time? No, in the name of God! it would be impossible and impracticable; therefore, most certainly God abrogated the laws of the Old Testament at the time of Christ. "

"To recapitulate: our meaning is that the change and modification of conditions, and the altered requirements of different centuries and times, are the cause of the abrogation of laws. For a time comes when these laws are no longer suitably adapted to conditions. Consider how very different are the requirements of the first centuries, of the Middle Ages, and of modern times. Is it possible that the laws of the first centuries could be enforced at present? It is evident that it would be impossible and impracticable. In the same manner, after the lapse of a few centuries, the requirements of the present time will not be the same as those of the future, and certainly there will be change and alteration. In Europe the laws are unceasingly altered and modified; in bygone years, how many laws existed in the organizations and systems of Europe, which are now abrogated! These changes and alterations are due to the variation and mutation of thought, conditions and customs. If it were not so, the prosperity of the world of humanity would be wrecked.

For example, there is in the Pentateuch a law that if anyone break the Sabbath, he shall be put to death. Moreover, there are ten sentences of death in the Pentateuch. Would it be possible to keep these laws in our time? It is clear that it would be absolutely impossible. Consequently, there are changes and modifications in the laws, and these are a sufficient proof of the supreme wisdom of God.

This subject needs deep thought. Then the cause of these changes will be evident and apparent.

Blessed are those who reflect!"

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Some Answered Questions (p.96)
 
Janet Waters

Janet Waters

Member
[QU

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
OTE="Shadow Wolf, post: 5013275, member: 2558"]Jesus said, at least a few times, he did not come to do away with the law, not a word of the law is to be changed or lessened, and there will be consequences for those that do.[/QUOTE]



  • Matthew 5:17-18
    17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Here we learn----that all the prophesies and promises contained in the Old Testiment were guarenteed to be fulfilled. Including the the prophesy of the Promised Messiah---who would come and save the world from our sins and give us a higher Law to live (Gospel of Jesus Christ).

    It is true......Jesus did not come to destroy the MOSIAC LAW....He came as the fulfillment of the Law (he completed the law--by his coming)..

    In other words, the purpose for the Mosaic Law was to be a harsh school-master to point a rebellious people to Christ. Christ would come and add the higher law to the lesser laws (becoming the full Gospel of Jesus Christ). The goal of the Mosaic Law was to present a strict Law of performances and ordinances that would be used to "bridle the passions" of the people (so they were no longer heathen but civilized people). When Christ came this group of civilized people would be prepared to learn the higher laws (that they did not have the ability to follow or understand in their previous heathen state).

    The Old Testiment contains the Old Covenant [Mosaic Law:school master] to humble the people and the New Testament contains the Higher Law [The full Gospel] which was designed to turn "good men into great men." Both Laws together provide the path to turn a rebellious Nation to be a Chosen Nation.

It's still a fact those things are in the Bible, and commanded by the Bible. It's the same book that today is used to restrict the rights of non-Conservative Christians. Not all things "have been fulfilled," thus, if we truly follow Biblical law, the leader who enforced it would be considered a monster to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
 
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Janet Waters

Janet Waters

Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Jesus said, at least a few times, he did not come to do away with the law, not a word of the law is to be changed or lessened, and there will be consequences for those that do.
Click to expand...


  • Matthew 5:17-18
    17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Here we learn----that all the prophesies and promises contained in the Old Testiment were guarenteed to be fulfilled. Including the the prophesy of the Promised Messiah---who would come and save the world from our sins and give us a higher Law to live (Gospel of Jesus Christ).

    It is true......Jesus did not come to destroy the MOSIAC LAW....He came as the fulfillment of the Law (he completed the law--by his coming)..

    The purpose for the Mosaic Law was to be a harsh school-master to point a rebellious people to Christ. Christ would come and add the higher law to the lesser laws (the full Gospel of Jesus Christ). The goal of the Mosaic Law was to present a strict Law of performances and ordinances that could be used to "bridle the passions" of the people (so they could advance from a heathen people into a civilized people). Then when Christ came to this group of civilized people---they would be prepared to hear the message and learn the higher laws (that they did not previously have the ability to follow or understand in their previous heathen state).

    The Old Testiment contains the Old Covenant [Mosaic Law:school master] to humble the people and the New Testament contains the Higher Law [The full Gospel] which was designed to turn "good men into great men." Both Laws together provide the path to turn a rebellious Nation into a highly evolved Chosen Nation.

Shadow Wolf said:
It's still a fact those things are in the Bible, and commanded by the Bible. It's the same book that today is used to restrict the rights of non-Conservative Christians. Not all things "have been fulfilled," thus, if we truly follow Biblical law, the leader who enforced it would be considered a monster to the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

It was the path that Israel was required to follow to advance them from the present rebellious state to the place where they spiritually needed to be in order to qualify themselves to be God's Chosen people and receive the PROMISED BLESSINGS of the faithful (which promises where continued in the Old Testament).
 
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Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Janet Waters said:
In other words, the purpose for the Mosaic Law was to be a harsh school-master to point a rebellious people to Christ. Christ would come and add the higher law to the lesser laws (the full Gospel of Jesus Christ). The goal of the Mosaic Law was to present a strict Law of performances and ordinances that would be used to "bridle the passions" of the people (so they were no longer heathen but civilized people). When Christ came this group of civilized people would be prepared to learn the higher laws (that they did not have the ability to follow or understand in their previous heathen state).
Click to expand...
If you take this interpretation, then you have to excuse Christ's return, which Christ promised that even some of the Apostles would still be alive when it happened. Jesus said it doesn't change until everything has been fulfilled. His return has not been fulfilled.
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
If you take this interpretation, then you have to excuse Christ's return, which Christ promised that even some of the Apostles would still be alive when it happened. Jesus said it doesn't change until everything has been fulfilled. His return has not been fulfilled.
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His return is happening everyday for those who have eyes to see, it was never a future return, it is the inner Realization that Christ is within you already, go within for that is where you will find him, for that is where heaven on earth is.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Janet Waters said:
The Old Testiment contains the Old Covenant [Mosaic Law:school master] to humble the people and the New Testament contains the Higher Law [The full Gospel] which was designed to turn "good men into great men."
Click to expand...
Turning "good men into great men" does not include ordering to them to kill all the men, all the women old enough to have "known a man," keep those who haven't for themselves, kill the kids, kill the cattle, scorch the earth. There is nothing great about demanding a parent be the first to cast the first stone in killing their own child, not over anything, not ever. The same goes for slavery. Every time the Bible mentions "servants," it's not what we think of as maids, but they are slaves. And slavery is condoned, affirmed, supported, and demanded in this "Higher Law." Moses condemned a man to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath, and their are many other offenses that mandate death. Women are also more-or-less property.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
psychoslice said:
His return is happening everyday for those who have eyes to see, it was never a future return, it is the inner Realization that Christ is within you already, go within for that is where you will find him, for that is where heaven on earth is.
Click to expand...
Literalists do not approach it this way. Baptists, Evangelicals, Pentacostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, there are many denomination that firmly believe it will be a literal second coming, with a good enough chunk of them thinking it will happen more-or-less as it does in the Left Behind series.
 
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