My post said: "Then give us a detailed account of why your god would exist in the first place, which organisms he designed and created, how he did it and when he created the different organisms. Just so that we know exactly what it is we are supposed to believe." If we are supposed to believe something you have to give us something to believe Deeje but you don't give us anything. You don't give us a reason why your god would exist in the first place or exactly which organisms or species or "kinds" he designed and created when or how he created them or how many... you Christians don't even agree so what are we supposed to believe?
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Just Accidental?
- Thread starter Deeje
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ROTFL he wrestled with Jacob. Genesis 32 NIV
In verse 24 it says..."Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to wrestle with him until the dawn broke."
Jacob was wrestling with a materialised angel. God is not a man and has never been one. The "man" that Jacob wrestled was not God because Jacob won the contest. You think God can lose a wrestling match with a mere mortal?
gnostic
The Lost One
Say that to some of the Christian sects in which they believe that Jesus is both God and Man.
Or that God made man in his image (Genesis 1:26-27).
Or when Genesis say that God walk with Enoch (Genesis 5:24).
Should we take those verses literal or metaphorical speaking?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
But by saying as such, you have slipped into polytheism since you believe that God has his realm and the Devil has his. If that's what you believe, fine, but then you've really slipped away from the belief of there being just one god.
And I hope you & yours have a Happy New Year weekend. Take care.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
God or Gods have done a wonderful job of that so far.
I have reasons to live and I don't need a deity to make it as such.
See above.
Whether this all occurred by accident or was ordained I can not determine because I simply wasn't there when our universe emerged and when life first appeared on Earth. How I feel about my life and the life of others doesn't depend on how we all got here.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
As previously explained several times by several posters, evolution is not merely "undirected chance." It's guided by natural selection and various other mechanisms like genetic drift, mutation and migration. Your assertion is an inaccurate one.God communicated with his human creation in several ways....not just through human representatives. Angels materialised on occasion to deliver messages or to direct God's ancient servants. There were visions and dreams as well as direct communication to the consciousness of individuals. God is not limited. He can "walk" with humankind in a variety of ways.
Undirected chance could not possibly be responsible for the extraordinary array of life forms on this planet. Each of them are unique and designed to live in the environment prepared for them.
How many beneficial flukes happen in real life? How much random chance can produce something as complex as a computer? The human brain is thousands of times more complex, yet it is "just accidental"? Really?
I am not aware that God has pets. Interaction with his human creation was personal until they became defective by their disobedience to one vital command. But rather than eliminate them from existence, he appointed a mediator to act as a spokesman for him. This one is identified as the "Word". He is the one who came to bring about reconciliation with God and mankind. We are all free to reject his efforts if that is our choice, but, according to the scriptures, there is only one road that leads to a future. The other road is a dead end. We choose which road we travel.
Combine that with the apparent fact that about 99.99999% of every species that has ever lived on the earth has gone extinct and I have to wonder how anyone can claim with such certainty that some creator god specifically designed each individual creature to perfectly fit their environment "prepared for them." The extinction of the vast majority of species that have ever lived is what we we expect to see if evolution is a reality.
Maybe you could explain what reason anybody has to believe anything the Bible has to say about anything at all. Especially these things you seem to be asserting with absolute certainty while simultaneously dissing science for honestly and openly assessing the available evidence.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Thanks for reinforcing what I said. If you had evidence, you'd present that instead of relying on "things unseen" that are neither demonstrable nor testable.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I strongly disagree. I'm not into fascism.The Bible reveals "who" God is and what his expectations and requirements are. It does not reveal "what" God is, other than to call him "the Creator" and to identify him as a spirit, meaning that he has no form visible to man.
As the one who is responsible for our existence, he has a right, as Universal Sovereign to expect obedience to his laws. This is his earth....we are just the tenants. Bad tenants will be served an eviction notice. Science in the hands of greedy men has created many bad tenants. (Revelation 11:18)
The Creator does not demand that you believe in him, nor does he force people to worship him. He doesn't have to. He is scanning human hearts to see who has the necessary qualifications to be accepted as citizens of his incoming kingdom. By our words and actions we either qualify or disqualify ourselves.
That depends on who "yourselves" are. Like evolutionists there are differing points of view on how and what took place and when.
I am not a YEC proponent because the earth itself reveals its age. I am not sure that it is an accurate thing to guess how old the earth is, but suffice it to say, it is way older than 6,000 the years that YEC gives it. Living things on this planet, long extinct also tell an ancient story. The Bible allows for that....but many want to stick to the 7/24 hour "days". I do not support that idea.
We know enough to appreciate that purpose needs a purposer and that programs need a programmer. The things in creation demonstrate both, so it is you evolutionists who go by what "appears" to be true, rather than what is right under your noses.
It is possible to be completely blind even though you have fully functioning vision. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
No, you are going with what "appears" to be true, hence your continued posting of photographs of random animals that you think are pretty to look at. It's the most shallow examination of evidence one can participate in.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
This still doesn't tell me what it is.
Ah, how convenient. Again.
This is the same being that created human beings in the first place, right? Yet "he" can't come into contact with them? Please explain how that makes any sense.
Where do we find these "other lifeforms" so that we can measure and test for their existence?
Ah, right. He just causes mutations to occur and supposedly individually designed every living creature on the planet.
I have to wonder why so many people bother praying then, if this god doesn't interfere in human affairs much at all.
"He" created the scenario in which we have "rope to hang ourselves" in the first place. So I'd say he deserves some blame for it.
I'd say human beings have done pretty well for ourselves. We've come a long way in just the last two hundred years or so alone. Never mind all the great minds that came and went long before that.
Just following God's lead, I suppose. How many times in the Bible does this god tell his people to go out and slaughter entire villages, witches, homosexuals, etc., etc., etc.How many weapons have they invented to slaughter one another, but they can find no way to make peace on this planet so that we can live without the threat of war and violance?
How much pollution will it take to kill of all life down here? At no other time in history has man possessed to means to destroy every living thing in existence. He seems to exhibit no thought past his own lifetime, leaving his grandchildren to clean up his mess.....how clever is he really?
Genesis 2:21. NIV. "So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh."
You have to allow scripture to interpret scripture. To do otherwise is to pit one person's opinion or interpretation against another's. This is why Christendom is so divided, yet claiming to be united in Christ.
The scriptures do not teach that Jesus is a god/man. The Bible says that Jesus was sent from heaven by his Father to earth to be born as a human child in the family line of Abraham and David, in the tribe of Judah. This was to fulfill prophesy and also to validate the law of redemption. In order to redeem someone, an equivalent price (the amount of the debt) had to be paid to free the debtor. Jesus did not have to be God to pay the ransom price demanded....all he had to be was sinless.
In God's law, a life was to be paid for a life lost. Adam lost his perfect life as a consequence of his disobedience, but he also lost perfect life for all his children. Only the offering of another perfect life could redeem them. This is what Jesus came to offer....his perfect life in exchange for the perfect, sinless life Adam lost for his children.
Romans 5:15-17:
"For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
Being "made in God's image" only means that we possess his attributes and qualities. We have a moral sense that is missing in the animal kingdom. There is a great chasm between man's sensibilities and those in animals. There is a communication gap too....no other species on earth can communicate like we do. We alone possess a sense of past, present and future. We alone can plan a future event based on past knowledge and make a conscious decision based on a probable outcome.
"Walking with God" simply meant walking in the way God directed. Walking with him physically is impossible.
I have not found God to be so elusive. Why do you think some people can have rock solid faith whilst other find it hard to believe in much of anything? At this point in my life, my faith is stronger than it has ever been. Seeing the fulfillment of prophesy right before my eyes has strengthened my faith whilst I try to tell others about the good things to come.
I understand, but your reasons to live don't seem to go beyond this life. Are you sure that this life is all there is? Why do we all seem to have some innate sense of life not being as it should. Why do you think we should expect to, collectively, live a better life than this?
It does to me. Because if I am the product of a Creator who had a purpose in bringing life to this planet, then he should, by rights, have left us some instructions and an explanation as to why we are falling short in our expectations. I believe that the Bible is his survival manual and that in it we find all we need to navigate this life whilst preparing for the next.....the real one that we should have had all along. I don't believe it involves everyone flitting off to heaven, but I do see the earth as our permanent home.....free from all the things that ruin our present existence. Everlasting life was meant to be lived right here, and God provided the means to do it.
Do you have beliefs or hopes beyond this present life metis?
You do know what you are saying, do you not? That you, a mere human, have knowledge of "God's estimations?" Can you, therefore, tell us what He thinks about the stock market for 2017? And how, exactly, do you become privy to such knowledge of the Divine Mind, anyway?
It seems to me that "natural selection did it" is science's substitute for "God did it". Call it whatever you like.....you still cannot provide a single link for the "chain" of slowly evolving creatures that evolution claims. You have assumptions galore, and lots of speculation, but no actual evidence.
See post 1807 [URL="https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/just-accidental.191045/page-91#post-5010156"]Just Accidental?[/URL]
Who said 99.99999% of species have gone extinct? Again we have a 'guestimate', not a fact. Science is good at throwing those around. If the Creator was creating and chose only those species he wanted to share the planet with man, what is that to anyone? He has the power over life and death as its source....we do not.
Can science explain extinction? The Bible never mentions it probably because it had nothing to do with Man.
There are many reasons, but to those who put no store by what the Bible says, why bother enumerating them? You either believe the Bible is the word of the Creator or you don't. You apparently put no store by what it says at all......but have you ever really examined it in any depth?
Evolution is built on what science never saw and cannot test.
The fossils are not talking so science has to speak for them.....its all made up of guesswork. Its about diagrams and graphics, assumptions, conjecture.....not verifiable facts.
The "evidence" is interpreted to fit the theory by those who have an agenda. Yet evolutionists accuse us of the same thing. Neither is provable, so pick your belief system.
Its not fascism.....the Creator is actually a benevolent dictator who has a perfect sense of justice. If we were all governed by such a ruler, our lives would be so much simpler, way more peaceful and secure and much more rewarding. I look forward to his rulership...the one Jesus taught us to pray for..."Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"....bring it on!
Its harder to deny the evidence when you have to confront it face to face. Seeing what God has created makes belief in evolution an act of denial. Your eyes are telling you the truth, whilst science is telling you to deny it.
We live in an artificial world where we are not face to face with the wonders of the natural world, to a large extent. Seeing what science is denying should make people think twice. Science has no more "evidence" for their theory than we do. What nature does is speak to our senses, not just to our cold intellect.
Spirituality is what makes some people seek out spiritual things, which includes worship, knowledge of the Creator, appreciation for what he has created and also what he has done and is doing to bring us back to the Edenic conditions we long for. You think its just a strange co-incidence that we all desire to live in paradise? Why is every paradisaic location crawling with tourists and vacationers? They all seem to want to go there even if its just for a short time.
The Bible tells us about 'extra-terrestrial beings' (which simply means that they do not come from planet Earth) who inhabit a realm that is unseen to human eyes. It tells us that these beings are "spirits" or lifeforms that have great power but cannot be contained by any material constraint. The natural human reaction to them is fear.....the hairs on the back of our neck stand up as we physically prepare for 'flight'.
There are forces in the universe that are powerful...science knows about them, but their knowledge is pretty sketchy at present.
What makes you think that these beings cannot exist just because mere humans cannot test for them? There is enough proof in the world for their existence, but these are not good enough for scientists who would rather just relegate personal experience to the trash can because it cannot comprehend them. Puny human methods of testing are a joke to them.
They are wreaking havoc in the world right now, pitting nation against nation and causing a level of evil that should be unheard of in this day and age. Man's inhumanity has reached new heights in an age where they should have been overcome.
I like the use of the word "inhuman" because it means "not human"......this level of evil is not coming from humans, but they are being manipulated from behind the scenes to perpetrate this horrible situation. Man has no solutions and is heading for what the Bible calls "the great tribulation"...a time of trouble so great, that it has never been experienced before...and will never happen again. (Matthew 24:21) Imagine the worst atrocities you have ever seen in the world up to now and then imagine them worse. This is what the Bible predicts.....and we are seeing the fulfillment right before our eyes...it will only get worse before God steps in. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:22)
Prophesy is one of the reasons why I trust the Bible.....these events were prophesied almost 2,000 years ago.
Denial really doesn't benefit anyone in the long run.
We have to take steps now to preserve our lives.
No, actually mutations occur because he does not intervene in human affairs just yet. He is just letting things play out naturally as he knew they would. The devil claimed that he was a lousy excuse for a father, keeping vital knowledge from his children. He is allowing his human creation to experience life without his direct intervention. This is a life lesson for all humanity....God was right to withhold a knowledge of evil...what good has it ever done in the world?
We will never want to demand it again. Actually man created that situation. All he needed to do was obey his Creator in one specific command....nothing too difficult, but self interest got in the way. The penalty for breaking that law as death.
Why is that unfair? They were on his earth in his garden and they stole something that rightfully belonged to him. Like a child who is told, "don't touch the stove because it will burn you". If you have to test that out, who do you have to blame for a painful injury? Or the child who plays with matches and burns the house down taking the lives of family members.
God has allowed us the avenue of prayer so that we can demonstrate our reliance on him, rather than on our now imperfect selves. Prayer is one of the ways we demonstrate our faith. And when prayers are answered, it reinforces our faith and makes it stronger.
I am sad for people who have never had a prayer answered.
God has been answering mine for most of my life....sometimes way before I knew I even needed to ask.
Look at the state of the world and tell me that again.....do you live in a bubble? What have the great minds achieved really?...apart from accolades for themselves?
In all the important areas, we are going backwards, not forward.
I can't think of any that were not warranted. The only people who had to fight Israel were those who chose to attack them. Israel were defenders. God allowed them to defend themselves.
I can't think of any witch hunts or gay bashers in the Bible. The "church" may have committed those atrocities, but like the inquisition, they were not sanctioned by God, I can assure you.
The Bible is a book of recommendations, but God does not force people to obey him...he lets them choose to do that. He will grant them citizenship in his new earth. (2 Peter 3:13)
"God's estimations" are all in the Bible....perhaps you should read it sometime. Its very enlightening.
He has rules of behavior that are commonly contravened in the world at present.....but not for much longer.
Your educational background in evolution would help us to understand how you come to know so much so definitively. Can you provide it? What science courses, in which universities, have provided this great knowledge you profess?
So you demand precise accuracy, and then go on to say "if this" and "if that" and "what's it to us?" Your bias is showing.
Actually, yes, science can explain extinction. The Bible doesn't mention it because the writers of the bible were ignorant of it. And when man becomes extinct (as we shall) it shall have everything to do with us.
God, one really does get tired of talking to people who claim to know everything about the Urdu language except any of it's words, grammar or idioms. And that's what the religious twits do when they get on their evolution twaddle. You don't know what you're talking about, and you can't stop talking about it. This is the positive summit of ignorant twaddle.
Sneer as you like, but I rather suspect that I have both read it -- and understood it -- more often, and in more depth, than you have. I'll take a snap Bible quiz (without props) against almost any Christian I've ever met, and fully expect to win."God's estimations" are all in the Bible....perhaps you should read it sometime. Its very enlightening.
He has rules of behavior that are commonly contravened in the world at present.....but not for much longer.
And your "not for very much longer" should have ended a very great long time ago -- in Christ's own words -- Luke 21:32, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Also Luke 9:27 and Mark 9:1.
TheSecretAntitheist
Member
They just designed themselves to be too irresistible to their women? Really?
The world's top designers would win awards for color co-ordination and fashion accessories like these.
//They just designed themselves to be too irresistible to their women? Really?// This just shows a stunning lack of understanding about evolution. They were not 'designed' like that. Natural selection has favoured the most brightly coloured of the male or female species, as this is what attracts a mate and allows the lineage to continue. A good example as to how this works would be African Elephant tusks becoming smaller. Selective pressures such as hunting and poaching for ivory has meant that more Elephants with larger tusks have been killed over and above those with shorter ones. This means that the ones that survive, the elephants with shorter tusks, are more freer to breed and produce other elephants that, due to genetics, will also have smaller tusks. Thus ensuring, at least for a short evolutionary time, the survival of elephants.
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