Mikveh.

In many ways biological history seems to recapitulate creation overall. Throughout Jewish midrashim the separation of the waters is a picture of the male waters (above) being separated from the female waters (below).

Genesis 1:7-10 makes it clear that the female waters below are the first mikveh; while, prior to the separation, male and female waters aren't distinguished in any particular manner. They're an unadulterated body (so to say) undifferentiated by concepts like above or below, male or female. In this sense they're a cosmological representation of the biological Adam prior to Genesis 2:21.



John

If you have to get this far out to explain why the Mikvah is needed, then I'm not sure how much of an argument you have.

I doubt God created things to represent Adam, but maybe Adam, made in the image of God, was himself a representation.

I always found that part of Genesis interesting because, the waters were divided twice, the waters in heaven and the waters of Earth. The waters in heaven weren't divided, or at least it's not mentioned.

So you have the waters, divided into the water of Heaven and the water of Earth. Then the water of Earth divided into Land and Sea. Perhaps walking on water is more necessary in Heaven.

John D. Brey said:

And God God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the mikveh, the waters [below], called he seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:7-10.

O Lord, the mikveh of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed . . ..

Jeremiah 17:13.
​

In many ways biological history seems to recapitulate creation overall. Throughout Jewish midrashim the separation of the waters is a picture of the male waters (above) being separated from the female waters (below).

Genesis 1:7-10 makes it clear that the female waters below are the first mikveh; while, prior to the separation, male and female waters aren't distinguished in any particular manner. They're an unadulterated body (so to say) undifferentiated by concepts like above or below, male or female. In this sense they're a cosmological representation of the biological Adam prior to Genesis 2:21.



John

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. . . Following the recapitulation theme noted above it's interesting that commenting on this passage of scripture (Genesis 1:7-10) the Zohar, (Be-Re****, 1:32b) equates the establishment of the "firmament" with Song of songs, 4:12: "A locked garden is my sister, bride; a locked fountain, a sealed spring." ---- In the minds of these careful Jewish exegetes, the "firmament" separating the male waters from the female waters signifies the closed nature of the fountains of the deep (female waters); the intact nature of the closed mem-brane (the "firmament") signifying the sanctity of a betrothed bride:

There's a membrane on the human body that's something like a firmament separating the male waters above from the female waters below. The membrane is know as the "membrane of virginity" since it signifies the sanctity of the one for whom the membrane remains intact. The zoharic sages equate this membrane not only with the "firmament" in Genesis 1:7-10, but with the curtain in the Temple, which, like the firmament in Genesis 1:7-10, separates mundane creation from heaven itself.



John

syncretic said:

If you have to get this far out to explain why the Mikvah is needed, then I'm not sure how much of an argument you have.

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. . . Not sure what you mean by "this far out"? ---- What do you see as a requiring a leap-of-faith?


John

Kemosloby said:

I doubt God created things to represent Adam, but maybe Adam, made in the image of God, was himself a representation.

I always found that part of Genesis interesting because, the waters were divided twice, the waters in heaven and the waters of Earth. The waters in heaven weren't divided, or at least it's not mentioned.

So you have the waters, divided into the water of Heaven and the water of Earth. Then the water of Earth divided into Land and Sea. Perhaps walking on water is more necessary in Heaven.

Click to expand...

. . . Nice observation. You're actually jumping ahead of things. That's good.



John

John D. Brey said:

. . . Not sure what you mean by "this far out"? ---- What do you see as a requiring a leap-of-faith?


John

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Being this 'Scriptural debates', I assume you are implying that /and from the inference from the original premise/, that Mikvah is somehow necessary. It's great to have that idea, but I can post verses from Scripture, of people doing various things, and claim then it a necessity.

Hence, if it is 'argument', it's far out

John D. Brey said:

. . . Following the recapitulation theme noted above it's interesting that commenting on this passage of scripture (Genesis 1:7-10) the Zohar, (Be-Re****, 1:32b) equates the establishment of the "firmament" with Song of songs, 4:12: "A locked garden is my sister, bride; a locked fountain, a sealed spring." ---- In the minds of these careful Jewish exegetes, the "firmament" separating the male waters from the female waters signifies the closed nature of the fountains of the deep (female waters); the intact nature of the closed mem-brane (the "firmament") signifying the sanctity of a betrothed bride:

Rabbi Yitschak said, "There's a membrane in the midst of the human body, partitioning below and and above . . .".

Be-Re****, 1:32b.
​

There's a membrane on the human body that's something like a firmament separating the male waters above from the female waters below. The membrane is know as the "membrane of virginity" since it signifies the sanctity of the one for whom the membrane remains intact. The zoharic sages equate this membrane not only with the "firmament" in Genesis 1:7-10, but with the curtain in the Temple, which, like the firmament in Genesis 1:7-10, separates mundane creation from heaven itself.



John

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The world starts as a non-gendered mass. -----Then the male waters are separated from the female waters and a barrier ("firmament" or "membrane of sanctity") is place between them.

Throughout Jewish midrashim the separation of the once unified waters is considered nefarious. -----It's noted throughout Jewish scripture that no statement, "and God saw that it was good," occurs for the separation of the waters, as is stated when the female waters below are gathered as a mikveh to allow the appearance of the "dry earth"?

Similarly, when the male is separated from the female in the creation of Adam and Eve the sages of Midrash Rabbah sense something nefarious going on beneath the text:

In two parallel myths, male is separated from female, a barrier is made to separate them, and evil enters the world:


The passage from the Zohar is rather amazing in that it moves seamlessly from the separation as the creation of male and female, to the membrane in the middle of the human body, heaven and earth, and the Temple, to the creation of Hell through the separation of the original waters of Eden.

All of the passages quoted from the Zohar occur within a paragraph of one another. They're a linear progression leading to the pièces de résistance. ----Which is to say that not withstanding the brilliance of the parallels already established (which are found throughout Jewish midrashim) the writers of the Zohar have as yet merely provided the groundwork (so to say) for something that transcends what has so far been laid out.



John

syncretic said:

Being this 'Scriptural debates', I assume you are implying that /and from the inference from the original premise/, that Mikvah is somehow necessary. It's great to have that idea, but I can post verses from Scripture, of people doing various things, and claim then it a necessity.

Hence, if it is 'argument', it's far out

Click to expand...

. . . Before it could be determined if the mikveh is or isn't necessary, we'd need to get to what it is? We haven't come that far yet. Some preliminary ideas are being used to see if the soil is able to accept these particular seeds?



John

John D. Brey said:

The world starts as a non-gendered mass. -----Then the male waters are separated from the female waters and a barrier ("firmament" or "membrane of sanctity") is place between them.

Throughout Jewish midrashim the separation of the once unified waters is considered nefarious. -----It's noted throughout Jewish scripture that no statement, "and God saw that it was good," occurs for the separation of the waters, as is stated when the female waters below are gathered as a mikveh to allow the appearance of the "dry earth"?

Similarly, when the male is separated from the female in the creation of Adam and Eve the sages of Midrash Rabbah sense something nefarious going on beneath the text:

R. Hanina, son of R. Adda, said: From the Beginning of the Book until here no samech is written, but as soon as she [Eve] was created, Satan was created with her. . .. AND HE CLOSED UP THE PLACE WITH FLESH INSTEAD THEREOF (TAHTENNAH).

Midrash Rabbah, Bere****h, XVII, 6.
​

In two parallel myths, male is separated from female, a barrier is made to separate them, and evil enters the world:

Waters ascend and descend until this expanse comes to be, separating them. Division occurred on the second [day], on which Hell was created, a blazing fire----as is said: He is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24)---destined to rain upon the heads of the wicked.

Zohar, Ibid.​

Why is that it was good not written concerning the second day? Rabbi Yohanan said . . ., "Because on that day Hell was created."

Midrash Rabbah, Bere****h 4:6.
​

The passage from the Zohar is rather amazing in that it moves seamlessly from the separation as the creation of male and female, to the membrane in the middle of the human body, heaven and earth, and the Temple, to the creation of Hell through the separation of the original waters of Eden.

All of the passages quoted from the Zohar occur within a paragraph of one another. They're a linear progression leading to the pièces de résistance. ----Which is to say that not withstanding the brilliance of the parallels already established (which are found throughout Jewish midrashim) the writers of the Zohar have as yet merely provided the groundwork (so to say) for something that transcends what has so far been laid out.



John

Click to expand...

In the worldview of the sages, both Christian and Jewish (and I was taught this comprehensively by Col. Thieme) the separation of the waters, upper and lower, created a real and tangible upper canopy of frozen water that encircled the earth like a shining one, a brilliant sapphire (perhaps Lucifer: the shining one). In the context of the passage of the Zohar being discussed, we read:

Professor Daniel Matt says, as commentary to the statement above: "Because the north wind blows . . . The harsh power of Gevurah freezes the waters that have gathered . . . preventing them from streaming onto the worlds below":

There was a frozen barrier separating heaven above and earth below. Not the clouds we have today, but an actual frozen barrier that separated heaven from earth.

Prior to the universal flood, which brought down this frozen barrier, there was no rain upon the earth. All watering came from rivers and streams on and beneath the earth. The sages play on all of these principles to form a comprehensive and compelling picture of the parallels between terrestrial and biological creation myths.



John

syncretic said:

I'm not trying to derail your thread

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. . . How could you? I've not hardly laid any rails yet. <s>



John

John D. Brey said:

In the worldview of the sages, both Christian and Jewish (and I was taught this comprehensively by Col. Thieme) the separation of the waters, upper and lower, created a real and tangible upper canopy of frozen water that encircled the earth like a shining one, a brilliant sapphire (perhaps Lucifer: the shining one). In the context of the passage of the Zohar being discussed, we read:

. . . the north wind blows on those [upper] waters and they congeal, unable to flow out, eventually turning to ice (1:32b).
​

Professor Daniel Matt says, as commentary to the statement above: "Because the north wind blows . . . The harsh power of Gevurah freezes the waters that have gathered . . . preventing them from streaming onto the worlds below":

Rav said, "The works of Creation [i.e., the heavens] were fluid, and on the second day they congealed. Let there be an expanse [in the midst of the waters]! (Gen. 1:6), Let the expanse be firm!"

Midrash Rabbah, Bere****h, 4:2 (bracketed comments in Professor Matt's translation of Bere****h Rabbah 4:2).
​

There was a frozen barrier separating heaven above and earth below. Not the clouds we have today, but an actual frozen barrier that separated heaven from earth.

Prior to the universal flood, which brought down this frozen barrier, there was no rain upon the earth. All watering came from rivers and streams on and beneath the earth. The sages play on all of these principles to form a comprehensive and compelling picture of the parallels between terrestrial and biological creation myths.



John

Click to expand...

. . . Throughout Jewish midrashim a clear theme is seen in these passages. There's a clear parallel between the creation of male and female in biology (the creation of Adam and Eve) and the terrestrial creation that begins with the throwing down of Lucifer from heaven.

In the myth, found throughout scripture and midrashim, Lucifer is thrown to earth with such great force (like a giant meteor from space) that earth, which at the time is covered by water, is rocked to its very core. So much water is thrown into the upper atmosphere by the shock of the meteor blow to the planet that this water freezes in space forming a shiny glass-like barrier between space and earth.

The universal flood is merely this frozen water eventually being disrupted in a manner that cause the whole canopy to come raining down on earth causing Noah's flood.

Part and parcel of the passages from the Zohar, which imply that Hell is created simultaneous to the creation of the firmament is the idea that this meteor striking earth with such force causes the core of the earth to heat up causing the very earthquakes and volcano's that cause the "dry earth" to rise up out of the oceans creating mountains, valleys, and the general geography we see today.

. . Somewhere, perhaps on the ocean floor, there should be an absolutely giant crater where this Luciferian meteor collided with earth. There are scriptures in John the Revelator's Apocalypse that suggest that not only will this crater be found, but that something is beneath it that will affect the end times dramatically.



John

And Mikveh?

is that it?

John D Brey,
You have just proved the concept, Egocentric Predicament. This shows that a person, any person, because of a limited knowledge,should not try to reason on things, from his own mind to form an idea different than what is explained in the Holy Word of God. When you do your own limited knowledge will, invariably lead you wrong. Read and try your best to understand the Bible!!! The best thing you can do is to genuflect humbly and ask God to give you the necessary Holy Spirt to understand, 1Corinthians 2:10.
Remember, it makes no difference that you are wise in your own eyes, because God allows only people who are like BABES, to understand, Luke 10:21. Only people who become like young children can understand God's words Matthew 18:1-4.

12jtartar said:

John D Brey,
You have just proved the concept, Egocentric Predicament. This shows that a person, any person, because of a limited knowledge,should not try to reason on things, from his own mind to form an idea different than what is explained in the Holy Word of God. When you do your own limited knowledge will, invariably lead you wrong. Read and try your best to understand the Bible!!! The best thing you can do is to genuflect humbly and ask God to give you the necessary Holy Spirt to understand, 1Corinthians 2:10.
Remember, it makes no difference that you are wise in your own eyes, because God allows only people who are like BABES, to understand, Luke 10:21. Only people who become like young children can understand God's words Matthew 18:1-4.

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Thank you. I agree with everything you've said except your judgment of my motivation, motives, knowledge of scripture, and relationship with the Holy Spirit.



John

syncretic said:

And Mikveh?

is that it?

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. . . Can you throw me a bone? ----- Do you know anything about the Jewish concept of a mikveh? . . . Although one can bathe alone, it takes two to tango.



John

John D. Brey said:

. . . Can you throw me a bone? ----- Do you know anything about the Jewish concept of a mikveh?



John

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How are you arguing to necessity of Mikvah?