• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"Our Mother Who art in heaven"?

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
MidnightBlue said:
Nothing at all. The problem is that people don't understand that it is inclusive. The see it as comparable to womankind.

I think that they are correct. The usage of the word harkens patriarchal days when men only were heads of the homes, state, and church. The men were the only recognized choice-makers and thus one only had to refer to mankind. Thus, there is a very practical reason why mankind was inclusive.
 

Cuthberta

Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Christians: Does it matter whether God is described in male or female terms? Why or why not?

In my opinion, yes - but only to the worshipper. Christians have always had a tough time relating to God as a "Father" because many of our earthly fathers are utter failures: drunks, molesters, alduterous greedy ********.


All: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?

The Bible makes it clear that we are to relate to God as one relates to a parent. IMO, gender-inclusive language like "Parent" only sterilizes our view of God, who in the Bible is described in both male and female terms. Perhaps it could work.

Personally, I'd like to see "Holy Mother" and "Holy Father" refer to the same divine Being, but I would not be opposed to "Divine Parent" or "Holy Parent" and allow the worshipper to think in terms of a good father or good mother.
Boy! This sure sounds bitter. Not all men are drunk, molesting, adulterous, greedy sleezeballs.

Of course, I have had the benefit of associating with the men of the Atheist branch of my family. The men on the Christian side didn't shape up as well, truth be told.
 

Cuthberta

Member
I have always been delighted with the Christian Science version of the Lord's Prayer (interspliced with my commentary):

http://www.csfirstlessons.com/csfirstlessons_016.htm

Here is the Lord's Prayer, with its spiritual interpretation, as given by
Mary Baker Eddy in the chapter "Prayer" of Science and Health:

Our Father which art in heaven,
Our Father-Mother God, all harmonious, (Granted, the "all harmonious" sounds a tad "New Age")

Hallowed be Thy name.
Adorable One. (I absolutely adore using the words "Adorable One" in reference to the Deity. The word "adore" has been used to death in abominable ways for far more trivial things.)

Thy kingdom come.
Thy kingdom is come; Thou art ever-present. ("Thou are ever-present." What a nice and reassuring reminder of the ever-presence of God. Geeze, if I'm going to have a god, it better not be a remote, unreachable, somewhere in the sky sort of god.)

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Enable us to know, -- as in heaven, so on earth,
-- God is omnipotent, supreme.
(What can possibly be added to this statement?)

Give us this day our daily bread;
Give us grace for to-day; feed the famished affections; (Okay, "feed the famished affections" may be a tad affected.)

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And Love is reflected in love; (By Jove, this sentiment works with me.)

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil;
And God leadeth us not into temptation, but delivereth us
from sin, disease, and death.
(OK, this does venture into the realm of the Christian Science belief system.)

For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever.
For God is infinite, all-power, all Life, Truth, Love, over all, and All. (Another sentiment that works for me.)
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Cuthberta said:
Boy! This sure sounds bitter. Not all men are drunk, molesting, adulterous, greedy sleezeballs.

That's why I said

Daddy said:
many of our earthly fathers are utter failures: drunks, molesters, alduterous greedy ********.

You're right, I am bitter, angry, frustrated, and heartbroken over the many children that I have seen who have been abused by their fathers.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
MidnightBlue said:
All: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?
I think it would be useful for people or deities that don't identify as either gender (*waves arms around*). Obviously some people won't like it, but they don't have to use gender-neutral pronouns if they don't want to.

I just wish I could find some gender-neutral pronouns that don't sound strange.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
MidnightBlue said:
All: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?

Don't know what the original scriptures said but the KJV is chauvanistic and some of the branches of religion for example refuse to women priest, pope, etc. Now that participation has gone down, gender neutral seems to be another way to exploit the beliefs of future generations. If religion is still around in a thousand years, people would never know that the KJV was written by chauvanists. A perfect plan to change the pass for religions gain.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
ProfLogic said:
Don't know what the original scriptures said but the KJV is chauvanistic and some of the branches of religion for example refuse to women priest, pope, etc. Now that participation has gone down, gender neutral seems to be another way to exploit the beliefs of future generations. If religion is still around in a thousand years, people would never know that the KJV was written by chauvanists. A perfect plan to change the pass for religions gain.

Only if people completely forget history. First, the patriarchal nature of Elizabethean England would have to be forgotten as well as the very recent shift from gender exclusive language to inclusive language. Second, the preservation of English literature would be forgone.

Religion does not exist (and has not previously existed) in a vaccum. The KJV translation actually set the standard for English grammar and spelling as it was one of the first books in English with a standard printing. The Lutheran translation did the same for German.

Now that English is changing yet again, gender inclusion is a requirement - the effect of language on religious expression has inverted.

I cannot understand for the life of me how you can argue or conclude that gender neutral seems to be another way to exploit the beliefs of future generations.

footnotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version_of_the_Bible#Literary_influence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible#Impact_of_the_Luther_Bible
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
MidnightBlue said:
Would you feel better about it if I had said "gender-inclusive" instead of "gender-neutral"?

Yep. I would have felt more comfortable about that.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Women: Do you feel alienated, marginalized or excluded by the use of male terms to describe God?

Although I'm not a woman, I've always felt excluded by exclusionary language of any sort, and in reference to anyone or any group. There's always been a part of me that's felt if they are excluding one individual or group, what's to stop them from excluding me. And, yes, that is one reason I'm not keen on becoming a Christian, for instance. Or a Buddhist, for instance.

All: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?

I wish English made it much easier to be gender neutral. It is so cumbersome at times to be gender neutral that we can only make a nod towards it.

On a larger scale, The Grand Klutz is neither male nor female so far as I understand it. Indeed, The Great Folly that is Ultimate Reality in this universe is beyond our understanding except for what we might possibly speculate about Its Alleged Character from looking at nature.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
MidnightBlue said:
Christians: Does it matter whether God is described in male or female terms? Why or why not?
No. It only matters to show in order show anthromorphisms in regards to God's qualities.
MidnightBlue said:
All: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?
What purpose would it serve?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Christians: Does it matter whether God is described in male or female terms? Why or why not?

I will always "see" God as a masculine figure. Whether this is accurate or not...I won't know until I go to be with Him but I feel that Adam was made in his image and woman was made as a modification of Adam...to compliment Adam.

Of course men and women were made in "His image" but I don't think that this necessarily makes God BOTH male and female.

Christ was bore by a woman...impregnated by a Holy Spirit that I can't help but to view as male. Even as far as the Trinity is concerned...FATHER, spirit and SON.

Christ instructed us to pray to Our Father who art in heaven...not our mother who art in heaven.

Women (any or no religion): Do you feel alienated, marginalized or excluded by the use of male terms to describe God?

Not at all.

All: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?

I think for Christians...if they were to refer to God as "Heavenly Mother"...they'd be wrong to do so as God is referred to throughout the Bible as Father not Mother.

These are my thoughts...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
MidnightBlue said:
Christians: Does it matter whether God is described in male or female terms? Why or why not?
Of course it matters. God is who He is; He is not who we choose to think He is. He is our Father in Heaven. How many fathers, in the history of the world, were female?


(any or no religion): Do you feel alienated, marginalized or excluded by the use of male terms to describe God?
No, I don't. Furthermore, I can't imagine why I would. I don't feel alienated because my earthly father is described as a male. Why would I feel alienated before my Heavenly Father is described as a male.


: Generally speaking, what do you think of the move toward "gender-neutral" language?
I think it's positively ludicrous.

I don't need my Father in Heaven to be a woman or a sexless substance. He is the Father of my spirit, and I am not at all bothered by referring to Him as a male. Unlike most Christians, though, I do believe I have a Mother in Heaven. I don't know anything about her, but do believe that she exists and is the eternal companion of my Father in Heaven. Maybe that's why I'm not so hung up on needing a unisex God.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Sunstone said:
On a larger scale, The Grand Klutz is neither male nor female so far as I understand it. Indeed, The Great Folly that is Ultimate Reality in this universe is beyond our understanding except for what we might possibly speculate about Its Alleged Character from looking at nature.

Grandpa Angellous says:

"I think and therefore gone wrong."
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
How many fathers, in the history of the world, were female?

God can be who she wants to be.

Perhaps a study of the use of "mother" references in the Hebrew Bible's wisdom literature is in order.

Outstanding examples are:

Psalm 22:9
Yet you are he who took me from the womb;you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
Psalm 22:8-10 (in Context) Psalm 22 (Whole Chapter)


Psalm 131:2
But I have calmed and quieted my soul,like a weaned child with its mother;like a weaned child is my soul within me.
Psalm 131:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 131 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 139:13
For you formed my inward parts;you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
Psalm 139:12-14 (in Context) Psalm 139 (Whole Chapter)
 
Top