What's God's Big Hangup With Homosexuality?

Sonofason said:

Yes, if they do not love and obey God, acknowledge and turn from these sins, and repent from them, they shall indeed experience complete separation from God and eternal life.

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Yeah, just like those who despise their neighbor, wear clothes of the opposite sex, gamble, dress immodestly, or boast. All acts worthy of eternity in hell.


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Skwim said:

Yeah, just like those who despise their neighbor, wear clothes of the opposite sex, gamble, dress immodestly, or boast. All acts worthy of eternity in hell.

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Indeed...

"ALTHOUGH the goodness of God, and His rich mercies in Christ Jesus, are a sufficient assurance to us, that He will be merciful to our unavoidable weakness and infirmities, that is, to such failings as are the effects of ignorance or surprise; ...we have no reason to expect the same mercy towards those sins which we have lived in, through a want of intention to avoid them." (William Law "A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life")

Skwim said:

While God may tolerate homosexuals (He never really comes out and condemns such people), according to the Bible it's clear He detests homosexual acts, both male and female. He even wants men who engage in homosexuality to be put to death.

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I wouldn't say this. If they committed their acts in a way that they would be seen, they could be put on trial and put to death. No one was to be put to death without the evidence of at least two witnesses; and if you study how the Sanhedrin decreed the death penalty should be used, there were other restrictions on its use. The witnesses had to agree on every detail. They had to be people of good reputation.

The same rule applied to adultery. If you kept it secret and no one witnessed it, you wouldn't be put to death. There is a difference between private and public acts.

There is also the matter of pagan practices to be considered. The pagan tribes around Israel had male temple prostitutes. A married man of Israel should not be visiting these male prostitutes or becoming one himself.

Three passages in particular address His distaste. (If there are other direct scriptural references feel free to share.)

Leviticus 18:22 (ERV)
22 “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

Leviticus 20:13 (ERV)
13 “If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.​

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Currently, it's estimated that from 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the population identify as LGBT.* With the current world population now hitting close to 7.5 billion, and considering God's attitude in Leviticus 20:13, this means there are between 112 - 635 million people (homosexuals) He feels are better off dead.

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Why not add too all the heterosexuals who do not use sex to express love but as a form of self-gratification only? People even the worst sinners can repent. They are not better off dead . . . unless their actions are so outrageous that they are tempting and encouraging others to sin.

If you are a person about to corrupt an innocent person, it is merciful if you die. You're better off dead. You would have more sins to answer for if you live to damage and corrupt an innocent person. Yes, it might be better for the intended victims too if they aren't corrupted and injured; but Jesus said it was better for such a person to die before he could offend thus.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

In child abuse, we see how it can go on for generations. A child corrupted as a child can grow up and corrupt other children. We can say everyone is guilty; but we can also say that the person who does it is responsible for all the chain of events which followed his deeds. Justice means he's held accountable for all the generations of abuse which followed his own. I've asked God to kill me before allowing me to commit an action that would create generations of suffering. I would consider it mercy.

I think we need to view Leviticus in this context. If men were going around in Israel having gay sex in public, they could be encouraging others to do the same thing. They could be tempting men who never thought about gay sex into trying it.

Pretty drastic of a loving god if you ask me. So the question arises: Just what the heck does God find so abhorrent about homosexual activity? He certainly doesn't leave any clue. Perhaps He may doth protest too much?

Anyone care to take a stab?

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I will. Man ("the man" -- Adam Kadmon) was made in the image and likeness of elohim -- not male, not female but both male and female. In the kingdom of God in spiritual terms, there is neither male nor female. It is only by the merging of male and female spiritually -- physical sex is not enough -- that the male-half and the female-half of a soul can be reunited.

That being said, not all souls are ready for this reunion. They have other karma to work out, other fish to fry. If they have other things to work out, it makes little difference if they commit gay acts or not. If the souls are ready for this reunion -- and I maintain the souls of Israel were -- then if they fall into gay acts, they are less likely, far less likely, to make this union. And I argue it is for this reason, Israel was given this commandment.

I would also argue that when Christianity stopped believing in reincarnation, many other subjects became obscure and this matter of being gay was one. Churches seem to me to have lots of people with karma about gay sex, and they can be very touchy about it and also are apt to be in denial. Indeed, the louder some of the clergy preach about gay sex, the more likely it is they are secretly gay themselves or have urges in that direction. Ho, ho, let me cite Paul again:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

There are several things which can prevent the soul from achieving its final perfection.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Being obsessive male or female is just one. One needs to become neither male nor female; and this is done by male merging with female. The "effeminate" cannot inherit because the male principle has been inverted somehow and cannot merge correctly with the female. The urge to gay acts doesn't work either since there the urge is to unite male with male. Such bondings of two male or two female souls can be effective; and we read of some in the Bible; but they do not work to make the soul neither male nor female.

Skwim said:

While God may tolerate homosexuals (He never really comes out and condemns such people), according to the Bible it's clear He detests homosexual acts, both male and female. He even wants men who engage in homosexuality to be put to death. Three passages in particular address His distaste. (If there are other direct scriptural references feel free to share.)

Leviticus 18:22 (ERV)
22 “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

Leviticus 20:13 (ERV)
13 “If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

Romans 1:24, 26-27 (ERV)
24 People wanted only to do evil. So God left them and let them go their sinful way.

26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.​

Currently, it's estimated that from 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the population identify as LGBT.* With the current world population now hitting close to 7.5 billion, and considering God's attitude in Leviticus 20:13, this means there are between 112 - 635 million people (homosexuals) He feels are better off dead.

Pretty drastic of a loving god if you ask me. So the question arises: Just what the heck does God find so abhorrent about homosexual activity? He certainly doesn't leave any clue. Perhaps He may doth protest too much?

Anyone care to take a stab?


*The demographics of sexual orientation and gender identity in the United States have been more accurately studied in the social sciences in recent decades. In the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation, the NHIS reported in July 2014 that 1.6 percent of Americans identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7 percent identify as bisexual. In a Williams Institute review based on an June–September 2012 Gallup poll, approximately 3.4 percent of American adults identify themselves as being LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender). An earlier report published in April 2011 by the Williams Institute estimated that 3.8 percent of Americans identified as gay/lesbian, bisexual, or transgender: 1.7 percent as lesbian or gay, 1.8 percent as bisexual, and 0.3 percent as transgender. The 2011 Williams Institute report also states that 8.2 percent of Americans reported that they had engaged in same-sex sexual behavior, and 11 percent reported some same-sex attraction. Studies from several nations, including the U.S., conducted at varying time periods, have produced a statistical range of 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the adult population identifying as LGBT. Online surveys tend to yield higher figures than other methods,[4] a likely result of the higher degree of anonymity of Internet surveys, which elicit reduced levels of socially desirable responding.
Source: Wikipedia


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The male plug must go into the female outlet.
Otherwise my toaster doesn't work.

allfoak said:

The male plug must go into the female outlet.
Otherwise my toaster doesn't work.

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Indeed, there is a natural order to things.

Mercurio said:

I wouldn't say this. If they committed their acts in a way that they would be seen, they could be put on trial and put to death. No one was to be put to death without the evidence of at least two witnesses; and if you study how the Sanhedrin decreed the death penalty should be used, there were other restrictions on its use. The witnesses had to agree on every detail. They had to be people of good reputation.

The same rule applied to adultery. If you kept it secret and no one witnessed it, you wouldn't be put to death. There is a difference between private and public acts.

There is also the matter of pagan practices to be considered. The pagan tribes around Israel had male temple prostitutes. A married man of Israel should not be visiting these male prostitutes or becoming one himself.

These two passage refer to Israel -- not to Gentiles. The Law of Moses was not intended for Gentiles. It is almost irrelevant. Its only relevance is how the various laws in it reflect "love." Properly understood, all of the Law is about love; and if we can't perceive the love in a law, we missed something. We may be looking at the "letter" of the Law and missing the spirit of it.

This is a fascinating passage which says people did not choose to be gay. It says because of other sin, God made them gay. Doesn't it? It also says they receive in their bodies the punishment for being gay. So there would be no need for us to inflict further punishment, would there?

We also read what Paul writes after this -- and many do not since they appear to want to condemn gays and find it convenient to ignore what follows:

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

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To whom the law applies or does not apply is irrelevant (BTW, some Christians believe the three passages do apply to gentiles). The relevant issue is:

allfoak said:

The male plug must go into the female outlet.
Otherwise my toaster doesn't work.

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Maybe you should try a different toaster.


Just a suggestion.


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Skwim said:

Maybe you should try a different toaster.

Just a suggestion.


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I don't think Walmart sells those.

allfoak said:

I don't think Walmart sells those.

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Walmart!.. Walmart!.. Walmart!. You know, there are other stores.






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allfoak said:

The male plug must go into the female outlet.
Otherwise my toaster doesn't work.

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Really? Your toaster must suck because mine works either way.

allfoak said:

The male plug must go into the female outlet.
Otherwise my toaster doesn't work.

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Did you get your toaster from God?
Or is this an irrelevant reference to something humans do?

Again.
Tom

As for the death penalty -it was applied in the Old Testament -under the old covenant -to remove sin from Israel by removing the sinner -while they were being prepared for the new covenant. Without the death penalty and other such things, Israel would have been a much different people -not prepared for the new covenant -under which, ironically, the death penalty is no longer applied.

Those who died by such will be resurrected and have an opportunity to live forever, but willingness to obey the law will be required.

Skwim said:

To whom the law applies or does not apply is irrelevant (BTW, some Christians believe the three passages do apply to gentiles). The relevant issue is:

What's God's Big Hangup With Homosexuality?


Care to address it?



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I did address it. Did you read my entire post? What I got back was an uninformed statement about whom the Law of Moses applied. I do not care what other Christians say. If they are uninformed and think the Law of Moses applies to Israel, I cannot help that.

Israel made a covenant with God. They took a vow to do all the things in the Law given through Moses. It applied to them and their children. Moreover the souls of Israel not yet born also took that vow. And some Gentiles who left Egypt took the vow.

Dt. 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. It is not something imposed on people against their will. Gentiles whose ancestors were not at Sinai should not believe this covenant is binding on them. They didn't take that vow.

Don't hold me responsible for the ignorance of some Christians. If you don't believe me, call a Rabbi -- he'll tell you Gentiles are not bound by the Law of Moses.

Skwim said:

While God may tolerate homosexuals (He never really comes out and condemns such people), according to the Bible it's clear He detests homosexual acts, both male and female. He even wants men who engage in homosexuality to be put to death. Three passages in particular address His distaste. (If there are other direct scriptural references feel free to share.)

Leviticus 18:22 (ERV)
22 “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

Leviticus 20:13 (ERV)
13 “If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

Romans 1:24, 26-27 (ERV)
24 People wanted only to do evil. So God left them and let them go their sinful way.

26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.​

Currently, it's estimated that from 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the population identify as LGBT.* With the current world population now hitting close to 7.5 billion, and considering God's attitude in Leviticus 20:13, this means there are between 112 - 635 million people (homosexuals) He feels are better off dead.

Pretty drastic of a loving god if you ask me. So the question arises: Just what the heck does God find so abhorrent about homosexual activity? He certainly doesn't leave any clue. Perhaps He may doth protest too much?

Anyone care to take a stab?


*The demographics of sexual orientation and gender identity in the United States have been more accurately studied in the social sciences in recent decades. In the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation, the NHIS reported in July 2014 that 1.6 percent of Americans identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7 percent identify as bisexual. In a Williams Institute review based on an June–September 2012 Gallup poll, approximately 3.4 percent of American adults identify themselves as being LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender). An earlier report published in April 2011 by the Williams Institute estimated that 3.8 percent of Americans identified as gay/lesbian, bisexual, or transgender: 1.7 percent as lesbian or gay, 1.8 percent as bisexual, and 0.3 percent as transgender. The 2011 Williams Institute report also states that 8.2 percent of Americans reported that they had engaged in same-sex sexual behavior, and 11 percent reported some same-sex attraction. Studies from several nations, including the U.S., conducted at varying time periods, have produced a statistical range of 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the adult population identifying as LGBT. Online surveys tend to yield higher figures than other methods,[4] a likely result of the higher degree of anonymity of Internet surveys, which elicit reduced levels of socially desirable responding.
Source: Wikipedia


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The rectum according to my understanding is meant for crapping out of, nature did not design it for penis penetration as far as I know, it would be a pretty toxic playground I imagine.

Hi Folks..

Ben d ;

The rectum according to my understanding is meant for crapping out of, nature did not design it for penis penetration as far as I know, it would be a pretty toxic playground I imagine

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EXACTLY FOLKS !!! Pretty TOXIC - DAMAGING - UNHEALTHY - both physically and especially SPIRITUALLY - entirely unnatural and base act !!! Literally taking the seed of Divinity and dumping it in what amounts to a filthy cesspool !!! They make a mockery of themself in their ignorance - literally are taking the p^ss out of themself, literally are degrading their own Self and dont even realise it... As said even the average 6 year old has this inherant spiritual wisdom that tells them natures way - they play and explore themselves quite naturally - find the differences between male and female quite NATURALLY - and look - this exploraton by the young NEVER is homosexual - little boys do NOT penetrate other little boys - not by choice - not naturally - BUT - little boys WILL quite naturally penetrate little girls, wont they..??...For THAT is natures way and as infants we understand it far better than we do as adults it seems - little boys have to grow up and be influenced by those around before they become homosexual - it is SOCIETIES INFLUENCE and not a natural thing at all and neither is it at all "genetic" as some fools will try to say...lol.......Hence as said, embracing all this and defending it as some try, will only lead to a yet more dysfunctional none spiritual society - morals and values, ethics all already are lowered are they not and now practically anything is accepted without question - and this trend toward base behaviour will only increase the more we allow it.. Soon the entire world will indeed be a toxic playground - full of spiritually ignorant base creatures that seek always to hold us down in their base notion of who we are, and none will even aspire toward their eternal nature, their Soul will be lost to them and they will just trap themself here yet again..Homosexuality is just the most obvious clear symptom of this spiritual corruption that has overtaken us.... If there is EVIL in the world - and I assure you (all) YES there is - then it is surely THIS - holding the Self as seperate from the eternal Divine nature - being seperate from "god" (but not that bible god) - but the one that resides within the Self as a part of the Father Source of All - ignore THAT connection and we are indeed lost - and this most base crude sexual act Im afraid, is clear indication that the individual is not listening to their Soul at all but is following purely mortal physical desire and circumstance - the more the world embraces that physical nature the more we will inevitably lose our eternal spiritual truth....

ben d said:

The rectum according to my understanding is meant for crapping out of, nature did not design it for penis penetration as far as I know, it would be a pretty toxic playground I imagine.

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Why would I want a penis inside me? I don't know where it's been. I don't trust a gonad that both pees and inseminates in the same hole.

Skwim said:

Walmart!.. Walmart!.. Walmart!. You know, there are other stores.
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Not in my neighborhood.

columbus said:

Did you get your toaster from God?
Or is this an irrelevant reference to something humans do?

Again.
Tom

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In this saying of the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells us how we are to enter the kingdom.

Gospel of Thomas saying 22:

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom."
They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

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This verse in Genesis does tells us the same thing.

Gen. 2:24

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

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The male and female must become one again to enter the kingdom.
While i would stop short of calling homosexuality a sin, since sin is mostly relative to the individuals motive, it is clearly not a lifestyle that would allow one to enter the kingdom.

savagewind said:

Huh? Two men having sex can't procreate. Silly!

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I am not sure that this is an explanation.

God does not seem to have objections for sterile couples, who also cannot procreate. For instance people with Down Syndrome.

Alternatively, He seems to have objections to marriages between believers and disbelievers, who can procreate.

Not to speak of people who uses birth control when they have sex. In this case, the objection depends on the flavor of God one chooses.

Ciao

- viole

allfoak said:

In this saying of the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells us how we are to enter the kingdom.




This verse in Genesis does tells us the same thing.



The male and female must become one again to enter the kingdom.
While i would stop short of calling homosexuality a sin, since sin is mostly relative to the individuals motive, it is clearly not a lifestyle that would allow one to enter the kingdom.

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I understand why primitive ancient people believed this. Why do you?
Tom