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Just Accidental?

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gnostic

The Lost One
Hint: presupposition about a subject cannot create anything but bias. How many peers review articles that are about something they already accept, and demonstrate no bias? The quality of the information and deductions are again the opinions of men, already indoctrinated......what does it prove?...not much IMO.
Ah, the irony... :rolleyes:

...you have just described yourself to the tee. :p

Your own presupposition to your belief in the God, Jesus, creation, the bible, etc, to be true, without evidences to support your belief, other than your blind faith, ego and bias.

The JW are infamous for being indoctrinated by their biased dogma and doctrines. So I find it is funny that you would point your finger at others here of being "biased". Try looking at yourself in the mirror, lady.

Thanks for sharing your presumptive wisdom and your ignorance on the process of science.

It's no wonder that I don't think much of scientific intellect of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Is it? Isn't it more correct to say that the entire theory of macro-evolution is based on micro-evolution (adaptation) and that there is not a single piece of solid evidence that any species' adaptation has ever been observed to go beyond its "kind"?
OK... list all the "kinds" on Noah's ark so we know what exactly a "kind" is so we can check whether any of them has gone beyond its "kind".
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
The kind practiced by those who only want to worship their own gods in their own way. "Worship" is practiced in many forms.

Sometimes a creator-god is called "natural selection" and the religion is science. :)
Ah.
So in order for your religion to not be false, you worship which other god(s) that are not your own?

{I suspect that you worded your reply poorly.}
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK... list all the "kinds" on Noah's ark so we know what exactly a "kind" is so we can check whether any of them has gone beyond its "kind".
It is funny the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the Noah account is real history and that God sent Noah to preach so that other people might get into the ark with those eight. If it is literal it is obvious that more people would not have fit in it, so why did God leave the burden to Noah to try? Not only do they have to reason that God had Noah preach for converts who would never actually be, but that at the same time he was to build an ark. Too small, though. LOL
 

KBC1963

Active Member
I would be very interested in reading an ID text book for use in schools with no religious bias.

Ah yes I see what you mean now. Here is one from 2013;

Introducing a New Intelligent Design Curriculum: Discovering Intelligent Design
It's brand new and launching today! Discovering Intelligent Design (DID) is the first full curriculum to present the scientific evidence for intelligent design in both cosmology and biology in an easy-to-understand format. The curriculum includes a textbook, a workbook, and a DVD with multimedia video clips that are integrated into the readings. Developed by home school educators Gary and Hallie Kemper, and Discovery Institute research coordinator Casey Luskin, DID uniquely fills a specific niche in the intelligent design literature.

Introducing a New Intelligent Design Curriculum: <i>Discovering Intelligent Design</i> - Evolution News & Views

I see there is now a workbook that can be used with the above textbook;
Discovering Intelligent Design Workbook
The Discovering Intelligent Design Workbook is one part of a comprehensive curriculum that presents both the biological and cosmological evidence in support of the scientific theory of intelligent design. Developed for middle-school-age students to adults, the full curriculum also includes a textbook and a DVD with video clips keyed to the content of the textbook....
Intelligent Design.org Book and DVD Store - Discovering Intelligent Design Workbook
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Believing in Jesus requires an active faith. (James 2:17) It results in having God's Spirit.....
What does Jesus say? John 14:
15 “If you love me, you will observe my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you. 18 I will not leave you bereaved. I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly show myself to him.” 22 Judas, not Is·carʹi·ot, said to him: “Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself clearly to us and not to the world?” 23 In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word,...."
And which two Commandments did Jesus narrow this all down to?
 

KBC1963

Active Member
A paper that was fraudulently published, it never passed peer review.
All the other articles are of the same ilk, unacceptable in modern science not because they threaten evolution but because they are poor work that does not stand up to even cursory examination.

That would be your opinion. If the science stated in the research isn't valid then guess what..... you or anyone else could reproduce them and show by empirical experiments why they fail until then you can posit any opinion you like but it holds no more value than goddidit.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metis, theologians are trained by Christendom. All those theological colleges that educate these men teach the same things, except that the basic core of their teachings is not of Biblical or Christian origins. After they receive their doctorate, they simply modify their training to suit their denomination in the other areas where agreement cannot be reached.

The Pharisees had their schools of higher learning, but they meant nothing to Jesus because they were teaching a corrupted form of worship. He chose as his apostles men who had not attended those schools....they were derided because of their lack of education, yet they were taught personally by God's own son.

"The feminine form for Babylon" would apparently be because "she" is pictured as an immoral whore....not to her lovers, but to the one to whom she is supposed to be faithful. God accused Israel of "adultery" when she made excursions into false worship. All false worship is spiritual adultery.

"Revelation 17:4, 6:
"The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality......And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

This 'harlot' is guilty of the murder of saints. An immoral woman dressed in the finest clothing but drinking a cup of disgusting things.....drunk with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. Who in history fits that description? Who wears purple and scarlet? Who were the "saints" and "the witnesses of Jesus" in those early centuries who were killed by her?
Anyone who dared to question the authority or practices of "the Church" were burned alive at the stake. Were these like the prophets of old who were sent to God's errant people, but executed because they told Israel's leaders things they did not want to hear? Did history repeat? Jesus said it would.

Revelation 18:24; 19:1-2)
"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”
"After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,

“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; because His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants on her.
(NSAB)

Christendom is the most reprehensible part of Babylon the great because she alone claims fidelity to the only true God (John 17:3)....yet she has betrayed him and his son at every turn. By committing the murder of "all who have been slain on the earth" this harlot (and her daughters) have so much blood on their hands. She is 'friends with this world', supporting its wars and its corrupt politicians, so there is no shame in her activity....it is fully justified by her. When Christ commanded that his disciples be NO part of this world, how can Christendom remain "friends" with God? (James 4:4) When he said to 'love our enemies and to pray for them' did Christendom's churches follow that admonition? She was always in bed with the military, sanctioning the killing....calling it "just war". The only "just" war is the one waged or sanctioned by God.

False religion is responsible for more bloodshed on this earth than anyone, or anything, else. There will be an accounting and according to Revelation 18:4-5 if we fail to remove ourselves from her before God executes his judgment upon her, we will be held in equal accountability for supporting her. :(



I sympathize...I have had that happen too. The "draft saved" feature has helped in this regard. And the "undo" feature of windows in the "edit" facility, helps restore what a click of a mouse accidentally erases. ;)
Could you please just directly respond from now on to what I post without resorting to posting a sermon that includes everything but the kitchen sink?

Again, the issue of Peter's reference to "Babylon" (feminine form) cannot logically be what you say because it implies he is in that location (Rome): 1Pet.5[13] She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark.

So, it's obvious that all you did with the above response is to fabricate a story that rather clearly cannot logically relate to what you say it does.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
OK......how does anyone get saved?...and what are they getting saved from?

There have always been faithful worshippers of the true God down through Biblical history...
I shortened your full sermon because you did not answer my question-- you just walked around it. Let's try again: John 3:16 says one is "saved" by having a belief in God and Jesus, but you have kept adding all sorts of elements well beyond that.

So, how do you reconcile your ignoring of what Jesus said? If Jesus narrowed down the entire Law to two Commandments, and they are to love God and to do unto others..., then why do you feel some obligation to add more?

This is important because there are undoubtedly many people in various denominations who do believe and do try to follow what Jesus taught, and yet you keep coming back adding A, B, C, D, ...

Now, please do not write another sermon in response.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And which two Commandments did Jesus narrow this all down to?
"Love God",

and

"Love your neighbor as yourself".

And love is an action noun and verb; you can't just say it, you have to show it. As Jesus said, to love him means to obey him. -- Compare 1 John 5:3
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And don't you see that all "Christians" have been very much a part of Christendom since the birth of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century. That religious institution held tyrannical power over the people for 1500 years, keeping the word of God from their hands and teaching them all manner of false doctrines. The reformation did not unite Christianity, but rather it broke the power of the Roman Church, and carved it up into ever more bickering factions. True Christians needed to extricate themselves from that fractured system of worship that claimed unity of belief in Christ, (1 Corinthians 1:10) but willingly killed their 'brothers' on the battlefield, practicing what Christ condemned....demonstrating no love for one another, which Jesus said would identify his genuine disciples. (John 13:34-35)

Answered in my previous post. If "belief" was all that was necessary, then the demons are also saved. (James 2:19) o_O
Actually it wasn't called "Roman Catholicism" 1600 years ago.

Secondly, what happened to the church of the apostles if supposedly it all ended back then? Didn't Jesus say he would guide the church to the end of times? And just a reminder that Paul repeatedly said that the church must to be "one body". And do you believe that the apostles were perfect and somehow made all entirely moral decisions?

Finally, if you actually read what I wrote about "belief", you would have noticed that I was referring to having a belief in Jesus, not just a belief about Jesus. so, your cutsey little wink (;)) is quite inappropriate.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Love God",

and

"Love your neighbor as yourself".

And love is an action noun and verb; you can't just say it, you have to show it. As Jesus said, to love him means to obey him. -- Compare 1 John 5:3
I never said nor implied anything different, so when I used the word "love", that is exactly what I was referring to.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I never said nor implied anything different, so when I used the word "love", that is exactly what I was referring to.

So most of christendom's actions -- indeed, the actions of almost all religion -- in wars and fighting are proof that God's spirit is not on them.... It's primary fruitage is love. Galatians 5:22-23; 1Peter 1:22

No wonder Jesus said the world would hate his followers. They were to "no longer (be) part of the world.

Living Translation
The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So most of christendom's actions -- indeed, the actions of almost all religion -- in wars and fighting are proof that God's spirit is not on them.... It's primary fruitage is love. Galatians 5:22-23; 1Peter 1:22

No wonder Jesus said the world would hate his followers. They were to "no longer (be) part of the world.

Living Translation
The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.
See post #1614.

The church is not and never has been for perfect people, and as long as people are running the church-- any church or "kingdom hall"-- mistakes, intentional or accidental, will be made. The importance is whether the church and denomination is teaching the necessity of believing in God and Jesus and acting out of love, and all denominations do this. and that includes my wife's RCC, as I attend the services there pretty much every Sunday with her. If you don't think so, then why not check it out for yourself.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
\
That would be your opinion. If the science stated in the research isn't valid then guess what..... you or anyone else could reproduce them and show by empirical experiments why they fail until then you can posit any opinion you like but it holds no more value than goddidit.
As an example, let's examine Meyer's paper that Sternberg published:

Clearly you did not read the paper, it contains nothing that could be reproduced, no reports on empirical experiments, it was an ID polemic thinly disguised as a "review" paper. Anyway, the opinion is universal, save fringe IDers. The science was not valid for any number of reasons. In a review Alan Gishlick, Nick Matzke, and Wesley R. Elsberry noted that it, "contained poor scholarship," ... "failed to cite and specifically rebut the actual data supporting evolution," and "constructed a rhetorical edifice out of omission of relevant facts, selective quoting, bad analogies, knocking down straw men, and tendentious interpretations." The article also flew in the face of honest scholarship because it was substantially similar to articles Meyer have already published. There are also serious doubts about the article's peer review, as noted in wiki:

A series of articles in Skeptic criticized the decision to publish the article. Michael Shermer disputed Sternberg's qualifications as a peer reviewer, stating that it dealt less with the areas Sternberg was qualified to review (systematics and taxonomy) than it did paleontology, for which many members of the society would have been better qualified to peer review the paper; at that time the Society had three members who were experts on Cambrian invertebrates, the subject discussed in Meyer's paper.[19] A follow-up article by Ed Brayton criticized Sternberg's decision to review the paper, given his ties to a known movement that opposes the theory of evolution:[20]

"Sternberg argues that he had the authority to publish Meyer's paper. But having that authority does not excuse the professional and ethical misjudgments. If you know that the publication of a pro-ID paper in a Smithsonian journal is going to cause an outcry, and you have close ties to the ID movement and to the author of this paper specifically, the ethical thing to do would be to excuse yourself from handling that paper and allow someone without those personal and professional ties to the author and subject of the paper to decide whether it should be published. Thus, Sternberg's decision to publish the paper without the normal peer-review process is a flagrant breach of professional ethics that brought disrepute to the Smithsonian." — Ed Brayton, The Richard Sternberg Affair

Doubts were raised whether the reviewers were evolutionary biologists.[7] According to an article by the Society of Academic Authors Meyer said the article grew out of a presentation he made at a conference attended by Richard Sternberg where they discussed the possibility of a paper for society's journal.[7] Observers have pointed to affiliations that in most circumstances would have disqualified Sternberg from reviewing an article on intelligent design.[21] They note that Sternberg is a Fellow of the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design, a Discovery Institute-affiliated group dedicated to promoting intelligent design. Sternberg is also a signatory of the Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism statement "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."[22]

Sternberg claims to have also checked with a Council member and to have followed the standard practice for peer review:

"Three reviewers responded and were willing to review the paper; all are experts in relevant aspects of evolutionary and molecular biology and hold full-time faculty positions in major research institutions, one at an Ivy League university, another at a major North American public university, a third on a well-known overseas research faculty. There was substantial feedback from reviewers to the author, resulting in significant changes to the paper. The reviewers did not necessarily agree with Dr. Meyer's arguments or his conclusion but all found the paper meritorious and concluded that it warranted publication...four well-qualified biologists with five PhDs in relevant disciplines were of the professional opinion that the paper was worthy of publication."[23]

Of the four "well-qualified biologists with five PhDs" Sternberg identifies, one was Sternberg himself, contributing his double doctorate to the total he cited. Sternberg's claim of following proper peer review procedures directly contradicts the published public statement of his former employer, the publisher of the journal, that the proper procedures were not followed resulting in the article's retraction.[2] In previous years the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington had published yearly lists of all the people who had served as peer reviewers. That list is absent for 2004, the year of the incident.​

You follow the classic IDer model, running on about things that you know nothing about on the basis of tracts from your coreligionists who are similarly ignorant. Try going back to original sources, read a bit, and then attempt to defend Sternburg.

A similar debunking can be done for every other paper on your list. I leave you with the wisdom of Judge John E. Jones III, conservative, Christian, Bush appointeee: "A final indicator of how ID has failed to demonstrate scientific warrant is the complete absence of peer-reviewed publications supporting the theory...The evidence presented in this case demonstrates that ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed research, data or publications." (Ruling, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District 4: whether ID is science). Since ID is, legally, not science, but religion, it had no place in The Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington.
 
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KBC1963

Active Member
\Clearly you did not read the paper, it contains nothing that could be reproduced, no reports on empirical experiments, it was an ID polemic thinly disguised as a "review" paper.

Hmm I don't remember positing a review paper as having empirical experiments in it. It would appear that you are cherry picking the review paper submission which ended up having bad press because it was an undesirable id paper published in an evolutionists main venue.

Most of the papers I have paid for to review the empirical experiments on were done by Douglas Axe and he specifies every experiment. So, you can of course cherry pick what you want to look into from the ID peer reviewed list but, I have seen the full text of the experiments by Axe and I still assert that if you disagree with his findings then perform those same experiments and show how wrong he is.

Empirical experiments are #1 everything else is opinion
 
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