meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
How traveling across land and sea to make one proselyte two times more the children on of ....... do for ya?
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Jesus and John....... what were their real missions?
- Thread starter oldbadger
- Start date
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
I don't think about streets paved with blood and gold, do you?
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Anyways I'm over that.
roger1440
I do stuff
I have no idea what you mean.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Sure. Something to relate to....
Luke and Matthew seemed determined to ensure that they related much in their accounts to previous prophecies and expectations, and by (also) selecting facts and spinning them into the frame of the stories these could act as 'truth-pills' to aid credibility. I have not counted these 'truth-pills' but there must be 7-10 in each nativity account.
Heh! That's a thread, right there........... Next week I'll begin a search and collection.
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
supposedly there's this big shinny city, saints and martyrs, blood that cry out in revelation. I was like that's not very appealing, people stack gold on that "sort of afterlife".... was Eldorado worth it.
I kind a like what God really makes that people cant, like earth, trees, water..and people.
FWIW here is a little background on John.....
"JOHN
[English equivalent of Jehohanan, meaning “Jehovah Has Shown Favor; Jehovah Has Been Gracious”].
John the Baptizer, son of Zechariah and Elizabeth; the forerunner of Jesus. Both of John’s parents were of the priestly house of Aaron. Zechariah was a priest of the division of Abijah.—Luke 1:5, 6.
Miraculous Birth.
In the year 3 B.C.E., during the assigned time of service of the division of Abijah, it became Zechariah’s turn to enjoy the rare privilege of offering incense in the sanctuary. As he stood before the altar of incense, the angel Gabriel appeared with the announcement that he would have a son, who was to be called John. This son would be a lifetime Nazirite, as Samson had been. He was to be great before Jehovah, to go before Him “to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” John’s birth would be by a miracle of God, since Zechariah and Elizabeth were both of advanced age.—Luke 1:7-17.
When Elizabeth was six months pregnant, she was visited by her relative Mary, then pregnant by holy spirit. As soon as she heard her relative’s greeting, Elizabeth’s unborn child leapt in her womb, and filled with holy spirit, she acknowledged that the child to be born to Mary would be her “Lord.”—Luke 1:26, 36, 39-45.
At the birth of Elizabeth’s child, the neighbors and relatives wanted to call it by its father’s name, but Elizabeth said: “No, indeed! but he shall be called John.” Then its father was asked what he wanted the child to be called. As the angel had said, Zechariah had been unable to speak from the time of Gabriel’s announcement to him, so he wrote on a tablet: “John is its name.” Then Zechariah’s mouth was opened so that he began to speak. At this all recognized that the hand of Jehovah was with the child.—Luke 1:18-20, 57-66.
Beginning of His Ministry.
John spent the early years of his life in the hill country of Judea, where his parents lived. He “went on growing and getting strong in spirit, and he continued in the deserts until the day of showing himself openly to Israel.” (Lu 1:39, 80) According to Luke, John began his ministry in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar. John would have been then about 30 years old. Though there is no record that John engaged in priestly service at the temple, this was the age for priests to enter into full duty. (Num 4:2, 3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E., and Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate on September 15; thus his 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to August or September of 29 C.E. Since Jesus (also at the age of about 30) presented himself for baptism in the autumn, John, six months older, must have begun his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E.—Luke 3:1-3, 23.
John began his preaching in the Wilderness of Judea, saying: “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matt 3:1, 2) He wore clothing of camel hair and a leather girdle around his loins, similar to the dress of the prophet Elijah. John’s food consisted of insect locusts and wild honey. (2Kings 1:8; Matt 3:4; Mark 1:6) He was a teacher and was, accordingly, called “Rabbi” by his disciples.—John 3:26.
Purpose of His Work.
John preached baptism for forgiveness of sins for those repenting, confining his baptism to Jews and proselytes to the Jews’ religion. (Mark 1:1-5; Acts 13:24) John’s being sent was a manifestation of God’s loving-kindness toward the Jews. They were in covenant relationship with Jehovah but were guilty of sins committed against the Law covenant. John brought to their attention that they had broken the covenant, and he urged honesthearted ones to repentance. Their water baptism symbolized this repentance. Then they were in line to recognize the Messiah. (Acts 19:4) All sorts of persons came to John to be baptized, including harlots and tax collectors. (Matt 21:32) There also came to the baptism Pharisees and Sadducees, against whom John directed a scathing message of denunciation and to whom he spoke of the judgment that was near at hand. He did not spare them, calling them “offspring of vipers” and pointing out that their reliance on fleshly descent from Abraham was of no value.—Matt 3:7-12.
John taught those coming to him that they should share things and not commit extortion, that they should be satisfied with their provisions and harass no one. (Lu 3:10-14) He also taught his baptized followers how to pray to God. (Luke 11:1) At this time “the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: ‘May he perhaps be the Christ?’” John denied that he was and declared that the One to follow him would be far greater. (Luke 3:15-17) When priests and Levites came to him in Bethany across the Jordan, they asked if he was Elijah or if he was “The Prophet,” and he confessed that he was not.—John 1:19-28.
John performed no miracles, as had Elijah (John 10:40-42), yet he came with the spirit and power of Elijah. He performed a powerful work in ‘turning the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones.’ He fulfilled the purpose for which he had been sent, “to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” Indeed, ‘many of the sons of Israel he turned back to Jehovah their God.’ (Luke 1:16, 17) He went before Jehovah’s representative, Jesus Christ.
John Introduces “the Lamb of God.” In the autumn of 29 C.E., Jesus came to John to be baptized. John at first objected, knowing his own sinfulness and the righteousness of Jesus. But Jesus insisted. God had promised John a sign so that he could identify the Son of God. (Matt 3:13; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21; John 1:33) When Jesus was baptized, the sign was fulfilled: John saw God’s spirit coming down upon Jesus and heard God’s own voice declaring Jesus to be His Son. Evidently no others were present at Jesus’ baptism.—Matt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11; John 1:32-34; 5:31, 37.
For about 40 days after his baptism, Jesus was in the wilderness. On His return, John pointed Jesus out to his disciples as “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) The following day Andrew and another disciple, probably John the son of Zebedee, were introduced to the Son of God. (John 1:35-40) Thus John the Baptizer, as a faithful “doorkeeper” to the Israelite sheepfold, began to turn his disciples over to “the fine shepherd.”—John 10:1-3, 11.
While Jesus’ disciples did baptizing in Judean country, John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim. (John 3:22-24) When a report came to John that Jesus was making many disciples, John did not become jealous but replied: “This joy of mine has been made full. That one must go on increasing, but I must go on decreasing.”—John 3:26-30.
Closing Days of His Ministry.
This statement of John’s proved to be true. After a year or more of active ministry, John was forcibly taken out of the field. He was thrown into prison by Herod Antipas because John had reproved Antipas for his adulterous marriage to Herodias, whom he had taken away from his brother Philip. Antipas, nominally a Jewish proselyte accountable to the Law, was afraid of John, knowing him to be a righteous man.—Mark 6:17-20; Luke 3:19, 20.
When John was in prison he heard of Jesus’ performing powerful works, including resurrecting a widow’s son at Nain. Desiring verification from Jesus himself, he sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?” Jesus did not answer directly; but before John’s disciples he healed many persons, even casting out demons. Then he told the disciples to report that the blind, deaf, and lame were being healed and that the good news was being preached. Thus, not by mere words, but by the testimony of Jesus’ works, John was comforted and reassured that Jesus was truly the Messiah (Christ). (Matt 11:2-6; Luke 7:18-23) After John’s messengers had left, Jesus revealed to the crowds that John was more than a prophet, that he was, in fact, the one of whom Jehovah’s prophet Malachi had written. He also applied the prophecy of Isaiah 40:3 to John, as John’s father Zechariah had previously done.—Mal 3:1; Matt 11:7-10; Luke 1:67, 76; 7:24-27.
Jesus Christ also explained to his disciples that John’s coming was a fulfillment of the prophecy at Malachi 4:5, 6, that God would send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. Nevertheless, great as John was (“Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist”), he would not be one of “the bride” class who will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom rule (Rev 21:9-11; 22:3-5), for, Jesus said, “a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (Matt 11:11-15; 17:10-13; Luke 7:28-30) Indirectly Jesus also defended John against the charge that John had a demon.—Matt 11:16-19; Luke 7:31-35.
Some time after this occasion, Herodias carried out her grudge against John. During Herod’s birthday celebration the daughter of Herodias delighted Herod with her dancing, upon which Herod swore to her that he would give her whatever she asked. Influenced by her mother, she asked for the head of John. Herod, out of regard for his oath and for those present, granted her request. John was beheaded in prison and his head was delivered on a platter to the girl, who brought it to her mother. John’s disciples later came and removed John’s body and buried him, reporting the matter to Jesus.—Matt 14:1-12; Mark 6:21-29.
After John’s death Herod heard of Jesus’ ministry of preaching, healing, and casting out demons. He was frightened, fearing that Jesus was actually John who had been raised from the dead. Thereafter he greatly desired to see Jesus, not to hear his preaching, but because he was not sure of this conclusion.—Matt 14:1, 2; Mark 6:14-16; Luke 9:7-9.
John’s Baptism Ends. John’s baptism continued until Pentecost day, 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out. From that time on, baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit” was preached. (Matt 28:19; Acts 2:21, 38) Those who thereafter were baptized in John’s baptism had to be rebaptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in order to become receivers of holy spirit.—Acts 19:1-7." (Insight Volume 2 WTBTS)
John — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
"JOHN
[English equivalent of Jehohanan, meaning “Jehovah Has Shown Favor; Jehovah Has Been Gracious”].
John the Baptizer, son of Zechariah and Elizabeth; the forerunner of Jesus. Both of John’s parents were of the priestly house of Aaron. Zechariah was a priest of the division of Abijah.—Luke 1:5, 6.
Miraculous Birth.
In the year 3 B.C.E., during the assigned time of service of the division of Abijah, it became Zechariah’s turn to enjoy the rare privilege of offering incense in the sanctuary. As he stood before the altar of incense, the angel Gabriel appeared with the announcement that he would have a son, who was to be called John. This son would be a lifetime Nazirite, as Samson had been. He was to be great before Jehovah, to go before Him “to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” John’s birth would be by a miracle of God, since Zechariah and Elizabeth were both of advanced age.—Luke 1:7-17.
When Elizabeth was six months pregnant, she was visited by her relative Mary, then pregnant by holy spirit. As soon as she heard her relative’s greeting, Elizabeth’s unborn child leapt in her womb, and filled with holy spirit, she acknowledged that the child to be born to Mary would be her “Lord.”—Luke 1:26, 36, 39-45.
At the birth of Elizabeth’s child, the neighbors and relatives wanted to call it by its father’s name, but Elizabeth said: “No, indeed! but he shall be called John.” Then its father was asked what he wanted the child to be called. As the angel had said, Zechariah had been unable to speak from the time of Gabriel’s announcement to him, so he wrote on a tablet: “John is its name.” Then Zechariah’s mouth was opened so that he began to speak. At this all recognized that the hand of Jehovah was with the child.—Luke 1:18-20, 57-66.
Beginning of His Ministry.
John spent the early years of his life in the hill country of Judea, where his parents lived. He “went on growing and getting strong in spirit, and he continued in the deserts until the day of showing himself openly to Israel.” (Lu 1:39, 80) According to Luke, John began his ministry in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar. John would have been then about 30 years old. Though there is no record that John engaged in priestly service at the temple, this was the age for priests to enter into full duty. (Num 4:2, 3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E., and Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate on September 15; thus his 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to August or September of 29 C.E. Since Jesus (also at the age of about 30) presented himself for baptism in the autumn, John, six months older, must have begun his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E.—Luke 3:1-3, 23.
John began his preaching in the Wilderness of Judea, saying: “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matt 3:1, 2) He wore clothing of camel hair and a leather girdle around his loins, similar to the dress of the prophet Elijah. John’s food consisted of insect locusts and wild honey. (2Kings 1:8; Matt 3:4; Mark 1:6) He was a teacher and was, accordingly, called “Rabbi” by his disciples.—John 3:26.
Purpose of His Work.
John preached baptism for forgiveness of sins for those repenting, confining his baptism to Jews and proselytes to the Jews’ religion. (Mark 1:1-5; Acts 13:24) John’s being sent was a manifestation of God’s loving-kindness toward the Jews. They were in covenant relationship with Jehovah but were guilty of sins committed against the Law covenant. John brought to their attention that they had broken the covenant, and he urged honesthearted ones to repentance. Their water baptism symbolized this repentance. Then they were in line to recognize the Messiah. (Acts 19:4) All sorts of persons came to John to be baptized, including harlots and tax collectors. (Matt 21:32) There also came to the baptism Pharisees and Sadducees, against whom John directed a scathing message of denunciation and to whom he spoke of the judgment that was near at hand. He did not spare them, calling them “offspring of vipers” and pointing out that their reliance on fleshly descent from Abraham was of no value.—Matt 3:7-12.
John taught those coming to him that they should share things and not commit extortion, that they should be satisfied with their provisions and harass no one. (Lu 3:10-14) He also taught his baptized followers how to pray to God. (Luke 11:1) At this time “the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: ‘May he perhaps be the Christ?’” John denied that he was and declared that the One to follow him would be far greater. (Luke 3:15-17) When priests and Levites came to him in Bethany across the Jordan, they asked if he was Elijah or if he was “The Prophet,” and he confessed that he was not.—John 1:19-28.
John performed no miracles, as had Elijah (John 10:40-42), yet he came with the spirit and power of Elijah. He performed a powerful work in ‘turning the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones.’ He fulfilled the purpose for which he had been sent, “to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” Indeed, ‘many of the sons of Israel he turned back to Jehovah their God.’ (Luke 1:16, 17) He went before Jehovah’s representative, Jesus Christ.
John Introduces “the Lamb of God.” In the autumn of 29 C.E., Jesus came to John to be baptized. John at first objected, knowing his own sinfulness and the righteousness of Jesus. But Jesus insisted. God had promised John a sign so that he could identify the Son of God. (Matt 3:13; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21; John 1:33) When Jesus was baptized, the sign was fulfilled: John saw God’s spirit coming down upon Jesus and heard God’s own voice declaring Jesus to be His Son. Evidently no others were present at Jesus’ baptism.—Matt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11; John 1:32-34; 5:31, 37.
For about 40 days after his baptism, Jesus was in the wilderness. On His return, John pointed Jesus out to his disciples as “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) The following day Andrew and another disciple, probably John the son of Zebedee, were introduced to the Son of God. (John 1:35-40) Thus John the Baptizer, as a faithful “doorkeeper” to the Israelite sheepfold, began to turn his disciples over to “the fine shepherd.”—John 10:1-3, 11.
While Jesus’ disciples did baptizing in Judean country, John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim. (John 3:22-24) When a report came to John that Jesus was making many disciples, John did not become jealous but replied: “This joy of mine has been made full. That one must go on increasing, but I must go on decreasing.”—John 3:26-30.
Closing Days of His Ministry.
This statement of John’s proved to be true. After a year or more of active ministry, John was forcibly taken out of the field. He was thrown into prison by Herod Antipas because John had reproved Antipas for his adulterous marriage to Herodias, whom he had taken away from his brother Philip. Antipas, nominally a Jewish proselyte accountable to the Law, was afraid of John, knowing him to be a righteous man.—Mark 6:17-20; Luke 3:19, 20.
When John was in prison he heard of Jesus’ performing powerful works, including resurrecting a widow’s son at Nain. Desiring verification from Jesus himself, he sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?” Jesus did not answer directly; but before John’s disciples he healed many persons, even casting out demons. Then he told the disciples to report that the blind, deaf, and lame were being healed and that the good news was being preached. Thus, not by mere words, but by the testimony of Jesus’ works, John was comforted and reassured that Jesus was truly the Messiah (Christ). (Matt 11:2-6; Luke 7:18-23) After John’s messengers had left, Jesus revealed to the crowds that John was more than a prophet, that he was, in fact, the one of whom Jehovah’s prophet Malachi had written. He also applied the prophecy of Isaiah 40:3 to John, as John’s father Zechariah had previously done.—Mal 3:1; Matt 11:7-10; Luke 1:67, 76; 7:24-27.
Jesus Christ also explained to his disciples that John’s coming was a fulfillment of the prophecy at Malachi 4:5, 6, that God would send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. Nevertheless, great as John was (“Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist”), he would not be one of “the bride” class who will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom rule (Rev 21:9-11; 22:3-5), for, Jesus said, “a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (Matt 11:11-15; 17:10-13; Luke 7:28-30) Indirectly Jesus also defended John against the charge that John had a demon.—Matt 11:16-19; Luke 7:31-35.
Some time after this occasion, Herodias carried out her grudge against John. During Herod’s birthday celebration the daughter of Herodias delighted Herod with her dancing, upon which Herod swore to her that he would give her whatever she asked. Influenced by her mother, she asked for the head of John. Herod, out of regard for his oath and for those present, granted her request. John was beheaded in prison and his head was delivered on a platter to the girl, who brought it to her mother. John’s disciples later came and removed John’s body and buried him, reporting the matter to Jesus.—Matt 14:1-12; Mark 6:21-29.
After John’s death Herod heard of Jesus’ ministry of preaching, healing, and casting out demons. He was frightened, fearing that Jesus was actually John who had been raised from the dead. Thereafter he greatly desired to see Jesus, not to hear his preaching, but because he was not sure of this conclusion.—Matt 14:1, 2; Mark 6:14-16; Luke 9:7-9.
John’s Baptism Ends. John’s baptism continued until Pentecost day, 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out. From that time on, baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit” was preached. (Matt 28:19; Acts 2:21, 38) Those who thereafter were baptized in John’s baptism had to be rebaptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in order to become receivers of holy spirit.—Acts 19:1-7." (Insight Volume 2 WTBTS)
John — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
the purpose is in john's words..mixed with Jesus. Or God's
9 The true lightM)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26054M"> that gives light to everyoneN)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26054N"> was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him,O)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26055O"> the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.P)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26056P"> 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believedQ)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26057Q"> in his name,R)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26057R"> he gave the right to become children of GodS)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26057S">— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.T)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-26058T">
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Are you suggesting that all the gospels were written for popularity rather than truth? Excellent point! There are strands of the real story and real facts riddled within all the gospels, but Christians have edited, added to, enlarged, exaggerated and even included outright deceptions in order to make their story appeal to their audiences.
I call it 'reversing-into-truth'. I have no doubt that Christians reversed into the truth of the oral traditions about Jesus, just as I suspect they reversed into Josephus's mention of Jesus, just as they reversed into pagan meeting places, pagan festivals and anything else which might help their objective.
Now, that isn't intended as an outright attack on Christianity, but rather an objective approach to investigating what Jesus's real mission really was.
@Tumah has explainred that the 3 great feasts were just that, festivals which Jews attended, and although a theological doctor explains that individual Jews might only attend one of those feasts in a lifetime (
http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/2392/ ) I suspect that Jews were pushed fairly hard to attend in Jesus's time, plus the possibility that priests' fees for providing remission of sins and cleansing were most probably extortionate. I see Jesus'sand John's attitudes to the Temple, Priesthood, Sacrifice et all as the genuine kernal in the story.
That's the point, by stripping away the popular deceptions, exaggerations, etc there may be a real story to find.
Tumah
Veteran Member
There is no fee for remission of sins. For the few sins that the sin offering helps, the priest gets to eat some parts of the animal and parts are burned on the altar. It was prohibited to bring a wallet up the Temple mount as well.
That's an interesting article you linked and it definitely brought up some question I'm going to speak to my rabbi about. Thanks for that.
roger1440
I do stuff
They were not written just for the sake of popularity. They were not trying to compete with the latest bestselling Harry Potter Book. The stories are trying to make a theological point. Take the story in the Gospel of John about the woman caught in adultery. Does it make any difference whether or not the story actually happen? The point of the story would still be the same. Did you know the story isn’t even found in the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of John?
“The pericope is not found in most of the early Greek Gospel manuscripts. It is not in P66, and it is not in P75, both of which have been assigned to the late 100s or early 200s. Nor is it in two important manuscripts produced in the early/mid 300s, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.”
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia
roger1440
I do stuff
To understand what was the mission of Jesus and John the Baptist we have to look at first century Judaism. What was going on at that time? Forget everything the church had told you what the Gospels mean. Start fresh from a first century Jewish perspective. The Gospels were not written for non-Jews. There were other Jewish writings circulating besides what the majority of Jews deemed canonical.
"[... it seems most strange that... ] the Creator of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards... he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, simply cannot tolerate these assertions. You have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit. [I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never accept them." (Nahmanides)
Nahmanides - Wikipedia
"[... it seems most strange that... ] the Creator of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards... he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, simply cannot tolerate these assertions. You have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit. [I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never accept them." (Nahmanides)
Nahmanides - Wikipedia
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This is typical anti-Jesus adherence ramblings/ it's basically meaningless. You can't understand Christianity, in a context that isn't integral to the Religion, ie the theology, so forth; and /modern/ Judaism is not going to give any clues into this /they did/do not accept Jesus, etc.
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oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
A most interesting point....... passages which could be 'negative' from a Christian pov, or which are innocuous pieces of information but which were included attract my attention most closely.
Although I do not take much attention of G-John I am indebted to it for telling me Judas's Father's name, and info like that. It's historically possible and yet is unlikely to be any part of an agenda.
The story of the adulterous woman was possibly or probably true, written down and kept, and a Christian cleric has wanted it to be saved, and so included it in a book tyh that would almost certainly be valued and saved. ???
I like the story, but if my ideas about Yeshua BarYosef are anywhere near to close, that is the kind of response I would expect of that man.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
As a young boy I did listen, and believed some of it. But I wondered about a 'real' Jesus for decades after that.
Somebody recently said that if a single lone person would go into the streets and tell such tales (for the first time ever) as billions accept that he would probably be detained under our mental health act.
Whatever I try to discover, or anyone else (I expect) all that I will ever get close to is the balance of possibilities, and I will be doing very well to achieve even that.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
I don't think so.
Individual investigation of the truth is just that, and not anti-Jesus anything.
I am not a Christian yet I debate that Jesus existed very strongly. Ergo I am pro-Jesus, if you like.
roger1440
I do stuff
We have a similar saying now. "When you point your finger at someone, you have four pointing at yourself".
roger1440
I do stuff
What I have noticed on this forum since I been here it’s mostly Christians who argue what I think the Gospels mean, not Jews. I try to fit the Gospels into Judaism rather than fit Judaism into Christianity. The Gospels were written by Jews, for Jews, using Jewish theology. People seem to forget that. The very concept of the Messiah is Jewish.
Tumah
Veteran Member
It may have been written for Jews originally, but keep in mind that the authors were trying to create something that was not Pharisaic Judaism. The sect that we descend from.
roger1440
I do stuff
I can sit here and give you quotes from the New International Study Bible and the New King James Study Bible. There are many foot notes in the Old Testament that goes some like, “this verse points to Jesus, that verse”. Just read the study notes on Isaiah 7:14.