How do you know God is morally perfect and righteous?

When people are saying God condemns them etc please use quotes as I would like to see exactly the quotes being referred to in order to explain them. Just saying God condemns someone isn't clear.

MattMVS7 said:

Many would say that God does not lie. But how do you know that for sure? What if he is a hypocrite? One of his commands is "Thou shalt not kill," but here he commands murder.

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Thou shalt not kill (LXX; οὐ φονεύσεις), You shall not murder (Hebrew לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ) or You shall not kill (KJV), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah,[1] specifically Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17. The imperative to not kill is in the context of unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt.[2]
Thou shalt not kill - Wikipedia

interminable said:

This is because u have no knowledge about God and the most important thing is that u compare him with ourselves that's your mistake

When u know God as an unlimited existence which we Muslims believe every attributes that we ascribe to him is unlimited too. And when we talk about an existence that is omniscient and omnipotent there is no place for such existence to lie because he has everything.
We usually lie because of fear ,obtaining better situation, making fun of others and.... But none of these reasons can be true about an unlimited existence that created everything.
Besides every imperfections are lack of perfections and as we proved he is perfect since he is unlimited.

Telling lie , rape ' jealousy , ego , self centred and..... All of imperfections are because we are in need of something and God doesn't need anything
He can have everything in no time.

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Not a question of comparing him to anything. The point is that even if there were a god, there is no way to know if anything we think we know about him is actually true.

loverofhumanity said:

Another way we know God is morally perfect and righteous is that all crimes, atrocities, rapes, thefts, murders et are committed by people. Wars are started and fought by men. God teaches us only to do good.

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You haven't read the Old Testament, have you?

habiru said:

It is hard for us to forgive those that has done us wrong. But children are so forgiving because they hasn't built up so much pride in their lives yet. Having ill thoughts about someone is evil. But God wants us to conquer it before it takes control of us.



Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Luke 5:21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

2 Samuel 24:16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

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I don't understand what those quotes are supposed to explain. the underlying question is "How would you know if an all powerful, all knowing being was lying to you?" How would you to be able to know his ultimate reasons for doing or saying anything? Do you believe you are so intelligent that such a being cannot possible outsmart you?

rusra02 said:

It was Satan who first planted doubts in Eve's mind as to God's righteousness and way of ruling. (Genesis 3:1-4) Since then, the majority of humans have rejected God's standards. The sad results speak for themselves, IMO. On the other hand, when humans follow God's laws, I believe their lives are much better even now, even with all the problems common to mankind. So, doing what God requires results in happiness and peace, ignoring his standards leads to unhappiness and evil. As Jesus Christ said to some who accused him of improper morals; "wisdom is proved righteous by its works." (Matthew 11:19)

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The original question here was basically, "How would you know if a god was lying to you? You can't quote from a religious text. That is simply circular reasoning.

interminable said:

I wanna say something philosophical although it's useless

We human being have purposes when we do something to reach our goals

But since God isn't not in need of anything and he himself is omniscient and omnipotent and ...so everything he is doing his purpose would be himself because nothing is greater than him
We are created to reach him
The eternal happiness and beauty

BUT this can't be achieved except for being slave of god and doing his orders

And notice that for someone like u God has prepared heaven
Gnostic say enjoyment of this world is nothing comparing to paradise so all u need is to be god's slave for 60 years and then be your king for eternal

And something more

Gnostic say if someone keeps doing sex with his partner for 60 years without pause this enjoyment will never be compared to one second of being gnostic and friend of god


Although these fact are senseless to u but notice that every enjoyment will be lost by death
Generally I wanna say it's not worth it to be slave of passions

Sorry for lecture

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But how do you verify any of this without resorting to religious books???? How do you know your god is not lying? What do you have besides his own supposed words? Are you so intelligent that such a being could not deceive you???????

Milton Platt said:

You haven't read the Old Testament, have you?

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Yes I have.

loverofhumanity said:

Yes I have.

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Then you should be aware that your all good god has supported slavery, genocide, and other atrocities. Not only supported them, but directly commanded them to be done.

This hardly qualifies him as all good.

Milton Platt said:

Then t
You should be aware that your all good god has supported slavery, genocide, and other atrocities. Not only supported them, but directly commanded them to be done.

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Can you provide some instances please and maybe scriptural references? The modern day equivalent of the Amalekites are Isis and nobody seems to have any qualms about the obliteration of Isis.

In such circumstances when we have a Hitler or an Isis God's call is justice not genocide. We don't know all the circumstances just a few verses.

Slavery had become ingrained in many societies but gradually, if you look at the Messengers sent over time, they encouraged its lifting and eventually with God's recent Messenger, Baha'u'llah, abolished it completely. Man does not progress overnight. It takes time for him to accept new ways.

I think we need to look at the big picture and try and see God's will in it. God has wanted humanity to unite for thousands of years but it could not be done until we had discovered the world and advanced technologically.

God has always sought to exalt our stations. For us to become noble beings. But an enterprise like this takes time from a barbaric, ignorant race we are slowly becoming a virtuous noble race and that is God's plan but He acts according to our capacity not His.

loverofhumanity said:

Can you provide some instances please and maybe scriptural references? The modern day equivalent of the Amalekites are Isis and nobody seems to have any qualms about the obliteration of Isis.

In such circumstances when we have a Hitler or an Isis God's call is justice not genocide. We don't know all the circumstances just a few verses.

Slavery had become ingrained in many societies but gradually, if you look at the Messengers sent over time, they encouraged its lifting and eventually with God's recent Messenger, Baha'u'llah, abolished it completely. Man does not progress overnight. It takes time for him to accept new ways.

I think we need to look at the big picture and try and see God's will in it. God has wanted humanity to unite for thousands of years but it could not be done until we had discovered the world and advanced technologically.

God has always sought to exalt our stations. For us to become noble beings. But an enterprise like this takes time from a barbaric, ignorant race we are slowly becoming a virtuous noble race and that is God's plan but He acts according to our capacity not His.

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Don't have references at hand but certain you could Google some up. Ecclesiastes comes to mind. I asked the question because you said your god was all good.
But the point is the Christian god supported slavery. He didn't condemn it. He directed wars, he didn't condemn them. He commanded people to commit genocide, he didn't condemn it.
Even Jesus did not tell his followers that owning a human being was immoral.

Do you think it moral of your god to allow slavery for thousands of years? Do you think he could not have spoken up and said "thou shalt not own a human being?" Why does it matter what the habits of the time are? Is your god subject to the whimsy of humans?
If you saw a child being sexually abused, would you try to stop it? I think so, because I think you are basically a moral person. But your god never does. your own morals are higher than his.

Bottom line, if you support something immoraal, then you are also immoral for doing so. No way around it.

Milton Platt said:

Don't have references at hand but certain you could Google some up. Ecclesiastes comes to mind. I asked the question because you said your god was all good.
But the point is the Christian god supported slavery. He didn't condemn it. He directed wars, he didn't condemn them. He commanded people to commit genocide, he didn't condemn it.
Even Jesus did not tell his followers that owning a human being was immoral.

Do you think it moral of your god to allow slavery for thousands of years? Do you think he could not have spoken up and said "thou shalt not own a human being?" Why does it matter what the habits of the time are? Is your god subject to the whimsy of humans?
If you saw a child being sexually abused, would you try to stop it? I think so, because I think you are basically a moral person. But your god never does. your own morals are higher than his.

Bottom line, if you support something immoraal, then you are also immoral for doing so. No way around it.

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God does not tell people 'thou shalt kill' or 'thou shalt commit sexual abuse' or 'thou shalt war against upright people'.

God doesn't instruct us to do anything evil. All evil proceeds from our own actions/inactions and our own choices.

Man is a free agent to make the choice between good and evil.

God sends His Messengers to guide us but it is up to us to follow the good path or the evil path.

God teaches only good. It is us who choose evil ways.

Is nature morally perfect or does it simply do what it will?

These are the kinds of things which are taught by God:

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:44
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

But if an Isis comes along God is the very first One Who approves of war. In the past Isis like groups did exist and God approved war against them. No one has any qualms about Isis being exterminated today. It was the same in those times before so God is loving and forgiving but endorses war against oppressors and ruthless tyrants such as Hitler and Isis and in the past the Amalekites.

loverofhumanity said:

God does not tell people 'thou shalt kill' or 'thou shalt commit sexual abuse' or 'thou shalt war against upright people'.

God doesn't instruct us to do anything evil. All evil proceeds from our own actions/inactions and our own choices.

Man is a free agent to make the choice between good and evil.

God sends His Messengers to guide us but it is up to us to follow the good path or the evil path.

God teaches only good. It is us who choose evil ways.

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Whether man is a free agent or not is another subject. We are discussing the morality of your god.

The Christian god did instruct the Israelites to do evil things. He instructed them to commit genocide, and he himself commited infanticide. He also gave very clear instructions on how to own slaves, including saying it was okay to beat your slave as long as he did not "die within a day or two".

How are these things moral???

When I have the time, I can pull the scriptural passages for you if you wish. You seem unwilling to acknowledge them, or are not as familiar with them as I am.

God created frogs and put the snapping turtle in the same pond. Sure, maybe it's better to be God, especially if you're the frog, but lets not whine about it.

Milton Platt said:

Whether man is a free agent or not is another subject. We are discussing the morality of your god.

The Christian god did instruct the Israelites to do evil things. He instructed them to commit genocide, and he himself commited infanticide. He also gave very clear instructions on how to own slaves, including saying it was okay to beat your slave as long as he did not "die within a day or two".

How are these things moral???

When I have the time, I can pull the scriptural passages for you if you wish. You seem unwilling to acknowledge them, or are not as familiar with them as I am.

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There's always context and perspective and interpretation as well. We don't always have these things or the information provided is insufficient.

For instance slavery. There are passages protecting the rights of slaves and also passages stating slaves are equal before God. It's not a blanket new world slavery. That existed but more a traditional one.

Passages like these point to different circumstances and situations. You are just making a blanket statement but there is evidence that God judges each case on its merits and is not anything but a just judge.

If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)

You don't believe in God do you? How can you when you don't believe He has perfect judgement and is a perfectly just judge. A perfect just judge cannot commit immorality.

So as you don't even believe in God your argument is flawed because you do not believe in the infallibility of God so God to you is non existent.

You are saying.

The perfectly Just God Who cannot make a mistake made an error in judgement by making immoral calls. These are contradictions in your own argument.

You cannot say God is immoral because God means moral perfection.

God can do no wrong and cannot commit immorality or atrocities.

I trust in the God of perfection Who never does wrong and only does good. If you accept God is God then you accept it is us who cannot understand some things or there is not enough information for us to see the full picture.

Because He is the one that defines morality and righteousness.

icehorse said:

Maybe you have "faith" that the Quran and the story of Muhammad are good information about god. But I disagree, and you don't have good evidence. I agree that the Quran exists, I read it, but that doesn't prove it is the word of god.

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U have read the the Qur'an but have forgotten it's grand claim
Bring like me!
If it was human made we could write like it but still....

Milton Platt said:

Not a question of comparing him to anything. The point is that even if there were a god, there is no way to know if anything we think we know about him is actually true.

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We prove the existence of God by logic then prove the apostolship of the prophet by miracles
Then everything they say we accept.

This is for those who are neither materialist nor skeptic
Otherwise nothing can convince them