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Is the Bible too Contradictory for All of it to be True?

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Your argument here only works if we have both Luke and Matthew. If they were purposely created in order to compliment each other. That's not the case. Matthew and Luke were written for different audiences. More so, they weren't always agreed upon. Some early canons had one or the other, or even left both out. Your argument doesn't stand.

More so, they do explicitly state that Jesus was the son of Joseph. Luke 3:23, states Jesus was the son of Joseph, and tells us without doubt that the genealogy traces back through Joseph. In Matthew 1:16, we are told that the genealogy goes through Joseph, as in, we are told that Jacob is the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born. Both state with out a doubt that they go through Joseph.

So yes, both point to Joseph, as both specifically state that the line is going through Joseph.
The genealogies are also that of Joseph, as both specifically state, in no uncertain terms, that they go through Joseph. It is through Joseph that both of the genealogies argue that Jesus was a descendant of King David.

As for the levarite marriage, where is the evidence? There is none. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there was a levarite marriage. There is no suggestion that Joseph died, and Mary was remarried. That doesn't even make sense in the story as the two were just engaged at the time of the conception. There was no time or evidence for a levarite marriage.

Not to mention that it wouldn't change the genealogy. If I married my brothers wife, the genealogy through the male line would be exactly the same. If my grandfather had married his brothers wife, the genealogy would have been the same through the male line. So it wouldn't explain the discrepancies in the genealogies.
Only if you read Luke. You are ignoring Matthew. It is in Matthew where the Magi are talked about (Luke doesn't mention them).

In Luke, it is because of a decree that the family goes from their home in Nazareth, to Bethlehem, to register for a census (a census that did not occur. We know that because there is no record of a census at that time. Not to mention that there was never a law or order that required people to go to their ancestral homes for a census. It makes no sense, as you would pay taxes in the place you lived, not the place that one of your ancestors lived. More so, Palestine would not have been subject to the census, as they were not under direct Roman rule). After the birth, they return home to Nazareth.

In Matthew, there is no census mentioned, no travel mentioned. Instead, the family already lives in Bethlehem. They don't move to Nazareth until quite some time after the birth of Jesus, and only after they come back from Egypt (as in, they live in Egypt for a couple of years, and then relocated to Nazareth after the fact).

You're combining the two Gospels instead of looking at them separately.

We have at least one historian, Josephus, who writes about the history of Palestine. He wrote about King Herod, as well as his death, and the atrocities he committed. There is no mention of the supposed massacre.

John and Mark, as well as Paul, never mention the massacre of infants by Herod either. Neither does Luke. So what you have is one source, Matthew, and only Matthew, that talks about this supposed historical event, while everyone else ignores it. Not to mention, Luke's account directly contradicts it. If it happened, why didn't Luke mention it, or even seem aware of it?

No. That's not the issue though. I don't have to works about my life stating that my family lived in one town when I was born, while another source contradicts it and says my family lived somewhere else.

The problem here is that you didn't address what I said, and instead are trying to distract from that with meaningless questions.
Then show me. Instead of making a condescending statement, and refusing to address the issues, show me where I'm wrong. Clear up the contradictions instead of ignoring them.

There is a lost letter to the Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 5:9 Paul speaks of having written the congregation before. Colossians 4:16 talks of a letter to the church in Laodicea. In 2 Corinthians 2:3-9, a tearful letter is also mentioned, which would have come after 1 Corinthians. That's three letters we no longer have. There are probably more, as Paul was operating for quite some time.

And what makes me think that we don't have those copies? Because no one has found them. Those 25,000 NT manuscripts have been looked over by scholars, and those letters were not among them. They also aren't in the NT canon, so there's that as well. Obviously, Paul didn't think he was writing scripture, nor did his followers.
I don't think either one is "right." I think it is what people decided on. It wasn't inspired. It was something debated for more than a thousand years, and only finally came down to two different ones. Or actually, dozens of different ones, because we also have Orthodox canons, from different Orthodox churches. There is the Latter Day Saints canon. Yeah, so there is still quite a few canons out there, which again, suggests that there was no definitive guide as to which books were meant to be included.

As for discrepancies.
1) 1 Timothy 3:16. It says, "G-d made manifest in the flesh." The earliest manuscripts state, "who was made manifest in the flesh." The difference is quite considerable, as it changes the meaning to imply that Jesus is G-d. The earlier text did not call Jesus G-d.

2) Luke 24:51-53. Some later manuscripts state that "he was removed from them." Earlier texts have an addition. After stating that Jesus was removed from them, it adds, "and he was taken up into heaven." It's a significant addition.

3) Possibly the most famous discrepancy in the NT. Where does Mark end? Some manuscripts have it cut off at 16:8. Others include an addition to 16:8, which sometimes ends with Amen. Or others include verses 9-19.

You're dead wrong here. First, it is not always a group. There have been a number of translations done by just one person. Many of the earlier translations were in fact done by one person. Even today, there are translations done by one person, or at least translations of various books done by one person.

And you didn't address the fact that some of the Hebrew words (especially) don't have a direct translation. We don't know what some of the words mean. For instance, Deuteronomy 33:2, the note that goes along with it is that the Hebrew is uncertain. That happens dozens of times throughout the Old Testament. In fact, I found that one by randomly opening up my Bible.
The two variations you gave are new variations. Compare the KJV to the NRSV. There are far greater differences. Compare the Latin Vulgate to the NRSV. Even more differences.

Translations change for a variety of reasons. Yes, we lares more about the languages, and partially to make them easier to understand. But also because we discover new manuscripts. After the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, and translated, translations changed. Better manuscripts. We no longer rely on the Textus Receptus, as the KJV did. Since 1870, we've found much better manuscripts, and thus the translations have changed.
You are assuming wrong again. You have no idea how old I am, because me being in college means absolutely nothing in regards to my age. My education with the Bible began when I was 8. My pastor, who took me under his wing, used sources from Fuller Theological school. One that did believe that the Bible was the inerrant word of G-d. I was ordained at 18 after going through the course work. So I have that literal teaching of the Bible. I have since rejected it, because I don't think it gives a meaningful understanding of the Bible. I believe it requires one to bury their heads in the sand.

I have sense attended Concordia College, where the majority of my course work has been finished. I've also taken course from Loyola University, and will be returning full-time soon.

I've also taken other courses from a number of schools, because I love learning. As for commentaries, I bought the library of a Lutheran minister, that contained nearly 1,000 books. Many of them commentaries. In addition to that, I have dozens of commentaries myself. And I know the languages. So please don't try to have some sort of meaningless contest here. Instead of comparing rulers, why not show why I'm wrong.
As I showed above, you didn't deal with them. You side stepped them.
I didn't say they were the most. However, the Galatians provided a huge portion of his ministry. It was an example.

If you read the epistles of Paul, they are filled with him having to defend his positions. He's defending his position, and answering new questions.
You are assuming. You are taking one belief, and assuming it means something more. Yes, I don't think the Bible is the inerrant word of G-d. It contradicts itself, so I can't see how it could be. That is a common position within Christianity.

It says nothing about being inspired.

I never answer post that long. I will only address your last remark. Most of Paul's writings are not about defending his positions. The great majority is teaching the basics of Christianity, from which conservative Christianity gets many of its basic doctrines.

With all of you books, commentaries and study, you should know that God told Paul that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by Him. Evidently with all of your wisdom, you have determined that is not true. So why should I believe you, instead of Paul.

How do you determine which verses Are true and which are not?

If we continue this discussion,I will frequently show where you are wrong and I will use God's inspired and inerrant word to do it.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It is true in the sense of the literature.

I would say in the sense of the literature Proverbs are true in ensemble with Proverbs qualifying Proverbs
but some would say they are true as maxim rules of thumb.... so... it depends on the sense of the literature


A good example are the almost side by side statements
"Do not answer a fool according to their folly lest you be like him' and
"Answer a fool according to his folly..."
Apparent contradiction to make the reader think
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I never answer post that long. I will only address your last remark. Most of Paul's writings are not about defending his positions. The great majority is teaching the basics of Christianity, from which conservative Christianity gets many of its basic doctrines.

With all of you books, commentaries and study, you should know that God told Paul that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by Him. Evidently with all of your wisdom, you have determined that is not true. So why should I believe you, instead of Paul.

How do you determine which verses Are true and which are not?

If we continue this discussion,I will frequently show where you are wrong and I will use God's inspired and inerrant word to do it.
Basically, this is a cop out. You're just sweeping everything under the rug instead of dealing with any of it, which leads me to the conclusion that you don't have a valid argument.

Paul didn't say all scripture was inspired by G-d. That occurs in 2 Timothy, which wasn't written by Paul. Nearly every scholar agrees on that. It was written by someone using Paul's name.

Also, there is no evidence that the scripture being referred to is anything in the NT. Instead, placing the quote in context, the scripture being talked about is the OT, or the Hebrew Bible. At the time of writing, Paul was not considered scripture, and much of the NT wasn't even written.

And inspired and infallible are two different things. I never said the Bible wasn't inspired. I said it wasn't infallible. It isn't the literal word of G-d. Your assumptions are too much.

As for how does one determine if a verse is true or not? It would depend on the verse.

And none of that subtracts from the fact that I demonstrated that the Bible does contradict itself.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
@op

The new testemant refutes the old testemant
Not really. The two often deal with different subjects, and largely, they address different audiences. What Paul taught, and he taught to Gentiles, would have little bearing on Jews. Much of the OT, addressed to Jews, has little bearing on Gentiles. Different audiences.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Basically, this is a cop out. You're just sweeping everything under the rug instead of dealing with any of it, which leads me to the conclusion that you don't have a valid argument.

I will deal with anything you say that is not just rhetoric, and most long post have more rhetoric that substance.

Paul didn't say all scripture was inspired by G-d. That occurs in 2 Timothy, which wasn't written by Paul. Nearly every scholar agrees on that. It was written by someone using Paul's name.

Wrong. That is the opinion of liberal scholars and like you, they just say it but do not offer any evidence. Conservative scholars and there is probably more of them than liberal one, disagree.

Also, there is no evidence that the scripture being referred to is anything in the NT. Instead, placing the quote in context, the scripture being talked about is the OT, or the Hebrew Bible. At the time of writing, Paul was not considered scripture, and much of the NT wasn't even written.
The N.T. is Scripture as much as the O.T. is. Since God is omniscient, He knew wht He would include in the canon of SCRIPTURE. It seems you are willing to throw out all of then NT


And inspired and infallible are two different things. I never said the Bible wasn't inspired. I said it wasn't infallible. It isn't the literal word of G-d. Your assumptions are too much.

Are you really suggesting that something God inspired could be fallible? Not only what God inspires is infallible, it is also inerrant. Unless you can show that the Bible isn't the literal word of God, it YOUR assumptions that are too much.

As for how does one determine if a verse is true or not? It would depend on the verse.

The question was "how do you determine that?" Give me an example of a verse that is not true.

And none of that subtracts from the fact that I demonstrated that the Bible does contradict itself.

The only thing you have demonstrate is that you do not understand the Bible. Liberals think that if they disagree with what God says, it isn't true. How sad,
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Not really. The two often deal with different subjects, and largely, they address different audiences. What Paul taught, and he taught to Gentiles, would have little bearing on Jews. Much of the OT, addressed to Jews, has little bearing on Gentiles. Different audiences.

Not true. It was written to all of God's chose people. Gentiles are also chosen by God---Eph 1:4---Col 3:12---Rev 17:14.

Not only that, Gods laws are for everyone, so that everyone knows what sin is.

Men hate religion. They are afraid it may be true. Blaise Pascal
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@omega2xx You ask for proof the Bible is not God's infallible Word, but God knows you will not accept proof.

Matthew 28:19

It is written; Make disciples of all nations.

God says what WAS written is "Disciple nations." So, God simply says, Disciple nations.

Disciple is a VERB. It means "to be Jesus' disciple for all nations".

Of is a preposition. That was added.

Make is a verb. That was added.

And disciple was changed from a verb form to a noun.

That is proof that God's words are NOT infallible.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not actually saying that to make disciples is a bad thing. The Jehovah's Witnesses are for making disciples, they made me one, and I am glad about it.

To believe God's will is to make someone a disciple can cause a lot of confusion, though. It is written that disciples of Jesus could have been known by God from the beginning. Am I one of those? I think I will never know.
Also, to be going out to make disciples one must carry a lot of baggage with them. Who, Lord? HOW? When, Lord? Why?

If it means what was written, which is simply, "disciple nations", that needs no baggage what-so-ever.
Just BE! Just keep on learning from, by and for The Lord and reflect what you are learning everywhere. To have said "all nations", just means there is no one to be excluded.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
It is true in the sense of the literature.

I would say in the sense of the literature Proverbs are true in ensemble with Proverbs qualifying Proverbs
but some would say they are true as maxim rules of thumb.... so... it depends on the sense of the literature


A good example are the almost side by side statements
"Do not answer a fool according to their folly lest you be like him' and
"Answer a fool according to his folly..."
Apparent contradiction to make the reader think

I really enjoyed your post. Let me offer another possible explanation of answering/not answering the fool.

John MacArthur says this: "Taken together these verse teach the appropriate way to answer a fool. He should not be answered with agreement to his own ideas and presuppositions, or he will think he is right. Rather he should be rebuked on the basis of his folly and shown the truth so he sees how foolish he is.

IOW don't polite and say something that he might take as agreement.

It might also suggest that if a fool ask a foolish question, answer it with something that is true and shows the fool how foolish his question is.

The Talmud says v4 refers to worldly things, v5 to religious things and it is our duty to the fool and to the truth to answer him.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
@omega2xx You ask for proof the Bible is not God's infallible Word, but God knows you will not accept proof.

Matthew 28:19

It is written; Make disciples of all nations.

God says what WAS written is "Disciple nations." So, God simply says, Disciple nations.

Disciple is a VERB. It means "to be Jesus' disciple for all nations".

Of is a preposition. That was added.

Make is a verb. That was added.

And disciple was changed from a verb form to a noun.

That is proof that God's words are NOT infallible.

You have just twisted the Scripture to try and make your point. First "of" and "make, wer not added.

Second "disciple" is not a verb, it is a noun in v19.

Finally, the verse does not say "disciple natoins," it says "make disciples of all nations."
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I am not actually saying that to make disciples is a bad thing. The Jehovah's Witnesses are for making disciples, they made me one, and I am glad about it.

To believe God's will is to make someone a disciple can cause a lot of confusion, though. It is written that disciples of Jesus could have been known by God from the beginning. Am I one of those? I think I will never know.
Also, to be going out to make disciples one must carry a lot of baggage with them. Who, Lord? HOW? When, Lord? Why?

If it means what was written, which is simply, "disciple nations", that needs no baggage what-so-ever.
Just BE! Just keep on learning from, by and for The Lord and reflect what you are learning everywhere. To have said "all nations", just means there is no one to be excluded.

You can't make disciples with a man-made Bible. The JW Bible was not translated from the mss. It was paraphrased from the KJ by 4 men. 3 were only high school graduates who did not know Hebrew or Greek. The forth did know some Greek, but no Hebrew. The basically eliminated any verses that refuted the theology of their founder.

I would be leary of any denomination's leaders who predict the end of he world 10 times and it has not happened yet. Especially when the "Bible specifically says no man know the day or the hour.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I will deal with anything you say that is not just rhetoric, and most long post have more rhetoric that substance.
You say that now, but you aren't dealing with what I have said. You keep using cop outs. To say that my posts have more rhetoric than substance is nothing more than dismissing what I have to say, and I have to assume that is because you can't actually deal with it.

For instance, you haven't dealt with the contradictions in the birth stories, which I have laid out pretty clearly. You haven't dealt with the 3 examples of discrepancies that I presented, after you asked. You haven't dealt with the lost letters of Paul, which I gave evidence for, after you asked.

I've dealt with every issue you have brought up, and I have answered questions that you have asked. You haven't done the same.
Wrong. That is the opinion of liberal scholars and like you, they just say it but do not offer any evidence. Conservative scholars and there is probably more of them than liberal one, disagree.
I'm not a liberal scholar. I'm pretty mainstream. I can tell you right now that it is taught in seminary, all mainstream seminaries, that Paul didn't write Timothy. The scholarly consensus, and that is based off all of the scholars in the field, is that Paul didn't write Timothy. And that scholarly consensus includes both liberal and conservative scholars. There are some ultra-conservative scholars, primarily of the evangelical or fundamentalist nature that may disagree, but that is by far a minority.

The vocabulary used is different than that of Paul. And it diverges from Pauline thought. It minimizes themes such as justification by faith, and the church as the body of Christ, and instead favors a different emphasis on tradition and regulations as a sign of Christian piety.

More so, while Timothy was a trusted companion of Paul for years, the letters present the receiver, that is Timothy, as needing basic instructions for community leadership. That makes very little sense in context.

That is why scholars have largely rejected it as being authentic. Even the NIV Bible, which is more conservatively slanted, acknowledges such.

The N.T. is Scripture as much as the O.T. is. Since God is omniscient, He knew wht He would include in the canon of SCRIPTURE. It seems you are willing to throw out all of then NT
That is an argument by faith. And as I showed in a previous post, whether G-d is omniscient is debated in the Bible. And no, I'm not willing to throw out any of the NT. That doesn't even follow from what I've been saying.

Funny thing though, if G-d knew what was going to be in the canon of scripture, why don't we have just one canon? Why do we have dozens? Seems to me that G-d didn't really care.

Are you really suggesting that something God inspired could be fallible? Not only what God inspires is infallible, it is also inerrant. Unless you can show that the Bible isn't the literal word of God, it YOUR assumptions that are too much.
Again, an argument based on faith, not evidence. You can certainly believe this, and I don't really care. But once you argue it as fact, there is a problem. You need evidence, and what you have here is faith.

Be inspired and infallible are different things. The movie, Texas Chainsaw Massacre was inspired by true events. But it is far from what the true events were. The Bible may very well be inspired by G-d, but it was written by humans, who are fallible, who make mistakes. And, as the Bible often points out, don't really do what G-d wants, or even understand G-d's commands. Look at Jonah. G-d commanded him to do something. He ran away. When he finally did what G-d wanted, Jonah was upset because G-d didn't destroy the "evil doers." You can't tell me that the writers are infallible.

That doesn't even really matter in the long run though. Because even if we assume that the original works were perfect, that point would be moot. We don't have the original works. We don't even have copies of the original works. We have copies of copies of copies. Some of those copies are hundreds of years removed from the original. And just comparing manuscripts, we can see that they diverge quite a bit (I already gave you three examples). There are thousands of differences.

So that in itself shows us that whether or not the original books were infallible, they aren't anymore. Especially when we have no idea what exactly the original words were.

The question was "how do you determine that?" Give me an example of a verse that is not true.
Like I said, it depends on the verse. I've already showed why the verses in Matthew, talking about Herod killing all the babies 2 years and younger is false. Here is another example, from Luke.

Luke says, in chapter 2, that a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should register. Luke tells us that this took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria. It then says that all went to their own towns to be registered. This is where we learn that Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, and for some odd reason, had to go to Bethlehem in order to register.

That's all false though. So, under Augustus, there were three censuses, 28 B.C.E, 8 B.C.E., and 14 C.E. No record of one during the time of the birth of Jesus, which is generally placed around 4-2 B.C.E. The earliest evidence for a Roman census in Palestine though wasn't until 6 or 7 C.E., after the death of Herod. During the time of Herod, Palestine operated not under direct Roman control, and thus wouldn't be part of a global census.

There is also no real evidence that Quirinius was governor of Syria until after the death of Herod. This leads many scholars to believe that Luke was instead thinking of the census in 6 C.E. Jesus could not have been born that late as in Luke 1:5, we are told that his birth, or at least conception, was still during the life of King Herod.

The final problem is that there was never any regulation, or reason, for people to travel to their ancestral homes. It didn't make sense. A census was taken for tax reasons. It makes no sense to have everyone travel to their ancestral homes, to register, and screw things up for taxation. It would be like if we were required to return to our ancestral homes today for a census. It throws off every number as there is no way for it to be accurate for any town or city. It makes no sense, and would be a governmental nightmare.

The only thing you have demonstrate is that you do not understand the Bible. Liberals think that if they disagree with what God says, it isn't true. How sad,
As it stands, I have shown the Bible to contradict itself. You have never offered a reasonable rebuttal. Offer a reasonable rebuttal, and if you show me to be wrong, I will admit such.

And I'm not a liberal scholar. I fall more mainstream. So instead of making snide little insults, you can actually deal with the issue at hand. Show me why I don't understand the Bible, instead of being condescending.

Not true. It was written to all of God's chose people. Gentiles are also chosen by God---Eph 1:4---Col 3:12---Rev 17:14.

Not only that, Gods laws are for everyone, so that everyone knows what sin is.

Men hate religion. They are afraid it may be true. Blaise Pascal
First, I don't hate religion. I'm a Christian. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars, and just as many hours, researching, and studying about religion, as I love religion. I have no problem with religious ideas being true. That includes Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Islamic, etc., religious ideas.

I also didn't say anything about G-d's chosen people. I said that parts of the Bible are directed towards Jews, and other portions are directed at Gentiles. You don't follow all of the Jewish laws do you? I doubt it, because Gentiles are not commanded to do so. Different audiences change the message.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have just twisted the Scripture to try and make your point. First "of" and "make, wer not added.

Second "disciple" is not a verb, it is a noun in v19.

Finally, the verse does not say "disciple natoins," it says "make disciples of all nations."
HaHaHa you are funny like a clown.

Yes, the translation says what you say it says.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see people getting puffed up about their knowledge of the Bible.
But, they do not seem to understand that to be God breathed a word must be HEARD.
The hearer is not usually the person who writes it.
So they are betting their lives on hearsay.

A translation, as perfect as it might be, can't be god-breathed. The original words can be god-breathed.

The original words are gone. They went with the hearer when he died.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
You say that now, but you aren't dealing with what I have said. You keep using cop outs. To say that my posts have more rhetoric than substance is nothing more than dismissing what I have to say, and I have to assume that is because you can't actually deal with it.

For instance, you haven't dealt with the contradictions in the birth stories, which I have laid out pretty clearly. You haven't dealt with the 3 examples of discrepancies that I presented, after you asked. You haven't dealt with the lost letters of Paul, which I gave evidence for, after you asked.

I've dealt with every issue you have brought up, and I have answered questions that you have asked. You haven't done the same.
I'm not a liberal scholar. I'm pretty mainstream. I can tell you right now that it is taught in seminary, all mainstream seminaries, that Paul didn't write Timothy. The scholarly consensus, and that is based off all of the scholars in the field, is that Paul didn't write Timothy. And that scholarly consensus includes both liberal and conservative scholars. There are some ultra-conservative scholars, primarily of the evangelical or fundamentalist nature that may disagree, but that is by far a minority.

The vocabulary used is different than that of Paul. And it diverges from Pauline thought. It minimizes themes such as justification by faith, and the church as the body of Christ, and instead favors a different emphasis on tradition and regulations as a sign of Christian piety.

More so, while Timothy was a trusted companion of Paul for years, the letters present the receiver, that is Timothy, as needing basic instructions for community leadership. That makes very little sense in context.

That is why scholars have largely rejected it as being authentic. Even the NIV Bible, which is more conservatively slanted, acknowledges such.

That is an argument by faith. And as I showed in a previous post, whether G-d is omniscient is debated in the Bible. And no, I'm not willing to throw out any of the NT. That doesn't even follow from what I've been saying.

Funny thing though, if G-d knew what was going to be in the canon of scripture, why don't we have just one canon? Why do we have dozens? Seems to me that G-d didn't really care.

Again, an argument based on faith, not evidence. You can certainly believe this, and I don't really care. But once you argue it as fact, there is a problem. You need evidence, and what you have here is faith.

Be inspired and infallible are different things. The movie, Texas Chainsaw Massacre was inspired by true events. But it is far from what the true events were. The Bible may very well be inspired by G-d, but it was written by humans, who are fallible, who make mistakes. And, as the Bible often points out, don't really do what G-d wants, or even understand G-d's commands. Look at Jonah. G-d commanded him to do something. He ran away. When he finally did what G-d wanted, Jonah was upset because G-d didn't destroy the "evil doers." You can't tell me that the writers are infallible.

That doesn't even really matter in the long run though. Because even if we assume that the original works were perfect, that point would be moot. We don't have the original works. We don't even have copies of the original works. We have copies of copies of copies. Some of those copies are hundreds of years removed from the original. And just comparing manuscripts, we can see that they diverge quite a bit (I already gave you three examples). There are thousands of differences.

So that in itself shows us that whether or not the original books were infallible, they aren't anymore. Especially when we have no idea what exactly the original words were.

Like I said, it depends on the verse. I've already showed why the verses in Matthew, talking about Herod killing all the babies 2 years and younger is false. Here is another example, from Luke.

Luke says, in chapter 2, that a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should register. Luke tells us that this took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria. It then says that all went to their own towns to be registered. This is where we learn that Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, and for some odd reason, had to go to Bethlehem in order to register.

That's all false though. So, under Augustus, there were three censuses, 28 B.C.E, 8 B.C.E., and 14 C.E. No record of one during the time of the birth of Jesus, which is generally placed around 4-2 B.C.E. The earliest evidence for a Roman census in Palestine though wasn't until 6 or 7 C.E., after the death of Herod. During the time of Herod, Palestine operated not under direct Roman control, and thus wouldn't be part of a global census.

There is also no real evidence that Quirinius was governor of Syria until after the death of Herod. This leads many scholars to believe that Luke was instead thinking of the census in 6 C.E. Jesus could not have been born that late as in Luke 1:5, we are told that his birth, or at least conception, was still during the life of King Herod.

The final problem is that there was never any regulation, or reason, for people to travel to their ancestral homes. It didn't make sense. A census was taken for tax reasons. It makes no sense to have everyone travel to their ancestral homes, to register, and screw things up for taxation. It would be like if we were required to return to our ancestral homes today for a census. It throws off every number as there is no way for it to be accurate for any town or city. It makes no sense, and would be a governmental nightmare.

As it stands, I have shown the Bible to contradict itself. You have never offered a reasonable rebuttal. Offer a reasonable rebuttal, and if you show me to be wrong, I will admit such.

And I'm not a liberal scholar. I fall more mainstream. So instead of making snide little insults, you can actually deal with the issue at hand. Show me why I don't understand the Bible, instead of being condescending.

First, I don't hate religion. I'm a Christian. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars, and just as many hours, researching, and studying about religion, as I love religion. I have no problem with religious ideas being true. That includes Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Islamic, etc., religious ideas.

I also didn't say anything about G-d's chosen people. I said that parts of the Bible are directed towards Jews, and other portions are directed at Gentiles. You don't follow all of the Jewish laws do you? I doubt it, because Gentiles are not commanded to do so. Different audiences change the message.

Did you not believe what I said---I don t respond to long post.

I did rebut your supposed contradictions, You just understand what I said.

Anyone who does not accept the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible is a liberal. All "mainstream denominations are liberal or at least have a liberal element. I doubt if your credentials make you a scholar. If we continue this discussion, I will eventually show you something you don't understand.

This is not a discussion about religions, it is about Christianity, and you could spend millions on books and that would not make you a scholar. There are so obvious contradictions between the religions you mentioned and Christianity. Which ones are more right than what the Bible teaches.

I have not said or implied you hate religion.

It is not necessary for you to tell me what college you attend. It obviously has a very liberal, non-Bibliocal theology.

Lets see if you understand the allegory in Gal 4:21-31, if you care to discuss it.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Did you not believe what I said---I don t respond to long post.

I did rebut your supposed contradictions, You just understand what I said.

Anyone who does not accept the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible is a liberal. All "mainstream denominations are liberal or at least have a liberal element. I doubt if your credentials make you a scholar. If we continue this discussion, I will eventually show you something you don't understand.

This is not a discussion about religions, it is about Christianity, and you could spend millions on books and that would not make you a scholar. There are so obvious contradictions between the religions you mentioned and Christianity. Which ones are more right than what the Bible teaches.

I have not said or implied you hate religion.

It is not necessary for you to tell me what college you attend. It obviously has a very liberal, non-Bibliocal theology.

Lets see if you understand the allegory in Gal 4:21-31, if you care to discuss it.
You haven't rebutted anything. Instead, you've avoided issues. This post really says nothing, so there is no point in continuing.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
You haven't rebutted anything. Instead, you've avoided issues. This post really says nothing, so there is no point in continuing.


It did say something---I rebutted your statement that thee are contradiction in the Bible. You don't believe it did, and that is fine with me. I am sure we will knock heads again, and when you dismiss something in the Bible as not being true, I will show you why it is true. Of course it will be from the Bible and your default position is that all of the Bible is not Gods inspired and inerrant word. Of course that is something you can't prove and saying, when ask, how do you now it is is not, it depends on the verse, is meaningless.

How about this; did Jesus literally walk on water?
















Godf's word
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I see people getting puffed up about their knowledge of the Bible.
But, they do not seem to understand that to be God breathed a word must be HEARD.
The hearer is not usually the person who writes it.
So they are betting their lives on hearsay.

A translation, as perfect as it might be, can't be god-breathed. The original words can be god-breathed.

The original words are gone. They went with the hearer when he died.

The how do you find the truth about God? Make it up your self?
 
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