What is the Alt-Right?

Revoltingest · Nov 23, 2016

suncowiam said:
I understand your points. I already knew what I was presenting was very loose in logic, but even now the president is quoted in condemning alt-right.

Is he criticizing the "alt right", or is he criticizing specific wrongful acts?
The distinction is an important one.

I'm satisfied by the following. This is my threshold which one can easily argue against. If alt right organizers knew their members were doing the nazi salute and did nothing to stop it, then to me, they deserve the full label as being racist.

It isn't practical to stop people from free expression, no matter how offensive.
Let's apply this standard to others.....
Hillary didn't condemn much of the bigotry & abuse perpetrated by her fans.
Does this mean such heinous behavior characterizes the entire party?

That picture is what I focused on. It's worth a thousand words. I didn't even care about the articles and the commentary. the first article was to present the picture.

Pictures can evoke powerful feelings.
But these shouldn't supplant reason, & stoke prejudgment.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then what is a video worth?
If one, two or a gaggle of Hillary supporters behave this way, then do all Democrats?

The second article was to confirm that it came from an alt right event. If I can have easy access to it then so can the organizers. And if they haven't condemn it to not be part of their movement then I will readily accept that as being part of their movement. Leaders have to control their followers and suggest what they can or cannot do, especially at their events.

Did Hillary condemn violence & vandalism by BLM types?
No....then by your reasoning, she tacitly supports them, & this is what Democrats stand for.

What I'm showing above is that looking for bias confirmation leads only to illusion.
Looking at all evidence, I can safely say that the alt right is no more a white supremacist
group than I can say that Hillary's supporters are all immature, sanctimonious, corrupt,
crying, violent, clueless, elitist, suicidal hypocrites.
Tis better to understand the opposition than to hate them.

suncowiam · Nov 23, 2016

Revoltingest said:
Is he criticizing the "alt right", or is he criticizing specific wrongful acts?
The distinction is an important one.

It isn't practical to stop people from free expression, no matter how offensive.
Let's apply this standard to others.....
Hillary didn't condemn much of the bigotry & abuse perpetrated by her fans.
Does this mean such heinous behavior characterizes the entire party?

Pictures can evoke powerful feelings.
But these shouldn't supplant reason, & stoke prejudgment.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then what is a video worth?
If one, two or a gaggle of Hillary supporters behave this way, then do all Democrats?

Did Hillary condemn violence & vandalism by BLM types?
No....then by your reasoning, she tacitly supports them, & this is what Democrats stand for.

What I'm showing above is that looking for bias confirmation leads only to illusion.
Looking at all evidence, I can safely say that the alt right is no more a white supremacist
group than I can say that Hillary's supporters are all immature, sanctimonious, corrupt,
crying, violent, clueless, elitist, suicidal hypocrites.
Tis better to understand the opposition than to hate them.

I can't speak for the president other than what was quoted. You'll have to ask him.

I don't support BLM either for the same reasons. And I'm not a full supporter of Hillary but many of her policies. Just like Trump supporters don't really support him but his policies. I've also condemned lefties for their protests and riotings in other threads. That picture was wrong and more needs to be said of it.

So yeah, I treat BLM and now this alt right organization the same way. Until their leaders convey clear ideals of their movements then I rather not give them a benefit of a doubt. I've seen enough to satisfy my own thresholds. It's fair you call it a bias. We all have biases and I'll readily admit to this one.

Again, someone needs to condemn these actions even if they come from fringe members. Those someones should be the leaders of what these members supposedly are members of.

Revoltingest · Nov 23, 2016

suncowiam said:
I can't speak for the president than what was quoted. You'll have to ask him.

But you did make a claim about what he said, ie, specifically condeming
the alt right. If you don't know the exact quote, you might be mistaken.

But even if he had, who says Trump has the authority to define them?
You wouldn't believe him if he said Mexicans are rapists, would you,
so why should you believe any other generalization he might make?

Perusing the internet, I see many media claiming that Trump condemned the
alt right. But looking at the articles, I've yet to find a single quote or video
supporting the claim. I'm tired of fruitless searches. Have anything?

I don't support BLM either for the same reasons. And I'm not a full supporter of Hillary buy many of her policies. Just like Trump supporters don't really support him but his policies. I've also condemned lefties for their protests in other threads. That picture was wrong and more needs to be said of it.

If you voted for Hillary, then you're in the group.
Whatever any other of her voters do, you are one of them.
(This is the standard of judgement you're applying.)

So yeah, I treat BLM and now this alt right organization the same way. Until their leaders convey clear ideals of their movements then I rather not give them a benefit of a doubt. I've seen enough to satisfy my own thresholds. It's fair you call it a bias. We all have biases and I'll readily admit to this one.

But if white supremacists & Nazis support the alt right, & this therefore characterizes the alt right,
then BLM characterizes Hillary voters.

Again, someone needs to condemn these actions even if they come from fringe members. Those someones should be the leaders of what these members supposedly are a member of.

Lack of condemnation isn't always tacit approval.
I've never condemned white supremacists.
Why would I need to?

suncowiam · Nov 23, 2016

Revoltingest said:
But you did make a claim about what he said, ie, specifically condeming
the alt right. If you don't know the exact quote, you might be mistaken.

But even if he had, who says Trump has the authority to define them?
You wouldn't believe him if he said Mexicans are rapists, would you,
so why should you believe any other generalization he might make?

Perusing the internet, I see many media claiming that Trump condemned the
alt right. But looking at the articles, I've yet to find a single quote or video
supporting the claim. I'm tired of fruitless searches. Have anything?

If you voted for Hillary, then you're in the group.
Whatever any other of her voters do, you are one of them.
(This is the standard of judgement you're applying.)

But if white supremacists & Nazis support the alt right, & this therefore characterizes the alt right,
then BLM characterizes Hillary voters.

Lack of condemnation isn't always tacit approval.
I've never condemned white supremacists.
Why would I need to?

Oh sorry. I thought you saw my response with Neo Deist where I linked what Trump mentioned. Here it is.

Trump denounced the group in an hour-long sit-down interview with The New York Times at the newspaper’s Manhattan headquarters. He also told The Times that the alt-right movement is “not a group I want to energize. And if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why.”

“I condemn them. I disavow, and I condemn,” he told The Times."

https://gma.yahoo.com/trump-disavows-alt-group-condemn-them-234704020--abc-news-topstories.html

I can agree with you on many things here. I'm at fault too as you suggest. I voted on what I felt was the lesser of two evils. In an ideal black and white world, I would have a candidate that symbolizes everything about me. However, I did not and I had to bite my tongue voting. My choices were to vote or not vote. I felt that voting outweighed the consequences of not voting. Won't argue with you there.

This is my threshold and opinion concerning these groups. Organizations have to be very clear with their messaging and their ideals. I'm not going to take chances with them if they aren't vocal about what their members can or cannot do. Those that cannot, will not have my acceptance. So back to that picture. It was taken at an alt right event. I personally expect organizers to be in control of what happens at their activities. This is my full expectation of any organization. Are you suggesting that this particular alt right event was not representative of the entire alt right movement?

Revoltingest · Nov 23, 2016

suncowiam said:
Oh sorry. I thought you saw my response with Neo Deist where I linked what Trump mentioned. Here it is.

Trump denounced the group in an hour-long sit-down interview with The New York Times at the newspaper’s Manhattan headquarters. He also told The Times that the alt-right movement is “not a group I want to energize. And if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why.”

“I condemn them. I disavow, and I condemn,” he told The Times."

https://gma.yahoo.com/trump-disavows-alt-group-condemn-them-234704020--abc-news-topstories.html

I can agree with you on many things here. I'm at fault too as you suggest. I voted on what I felt was the lesser of two evils. In an ideal black and white world, I would have a candidate that symbolizes everything about me. However, I did not and I had to bite my tongue voting. My choices were to vote or not vote. I felt that voting outweighed the consequences of not voting. Won't argue with you there.

This is my threshold and opinion concerning these groups. Organizations have to be very clear with their messaging and their ideals. I'm not going to take chances with them if they aren't vocal about what their members can or cannot do. Those that cannot, will not have my acceptance. So back to that picture. It was taken at an alt right event. I personally expect organizers to be in control of what happens at their activities. This is my full expectation of any organization. Are you suggesting that this particular alt right event was not representative of the entire alt right movement?

I watched the video in the linked article, & there was no mention of "alt right".
Many articles make the claim, but so far it's simply been their inference rather
than anything factual. This might rise to the level of "fake news".

I don't know what alt right is all about...they're new, & much is being said about them.
It's hard to distinguish between the noise & what's cromulent. So partisans are
culling that which confirms their prejudice against Trump, & linking him with the alt right.
I don't buy empty claims that they're all this or all that.
Find me a video where Trump names them, & speaks of them.

suncowiam · Nov 23, 2016

Revoltingest said:
I watched the video in the linked article, & there was no mention of "alt right".
Many articles make the claim, but so far it's simply been their inference rather
than anything factual.
I don't know what alt right is all about...they're new, & much is being said about them.
It's hard to distinguish between the noise & what's cromulent. So partisans are
culling that which confirms their prejudice against Trump, & the alt right.
But I don't buy empty claims that they're all this or all that.

It's true... Trump didn't quote alt right, so we would have to believe some of the article in pairing alt right with Trump's quote. Fair to point out, concerning media bias and fake news, these days,

I don't think the claim is as empty as you suggest, but I think we can agree that time will definitely solidify this issue.

If I'm wrong, I can admit that later on.

Revoltingest · Nov 23, 2016

suncowiam said:
It's true... Trump didn't quote alt right, so we would have to believe some of the article in pairing alt right with Trump's quote. Fair to point out, concerning media bias and fake news, these days,

I don't think the claim is as empty as you suggest, but I think we can agree that time will definitely solidify this issue.

If I'm wrong, I can admit that later on.

I don't think you could be wrong about the illuminating benefit of time's passing.

suncowiam · Nov 23, 2016

Well, here is the main speech from Richard Spencer from that Washington event.

Yeah... Haven't seen that many Nazi salutes since well, uhm, never.

@Revoltingest, what do you think?

From what I can tell, the crowd is either mostly white or all white. Spencer ends his speech with the following:

"America was, until this last generation, a white country designed for ourselves and our posterity. It is our creation, it is our inheritance, and it belongs to us.”

Revoltingest · Nov 24, 2016

suncowiam said:
Well, here is the main speech from Richard Spencer from that Washington event.

Yeah... Haven't seen that many Nazi salutes since well, uhm, never.

@Revoltingest, what do you think?

From what I can tell, the crowd is either mostly white or all white. Spencer ends his speech with the following:

"America was, until this last generation, a white country designed for ourselves and our posterity. It is our creation, it is our inheritance, and it belongs to us.”

This Spencer fellow & his audience here are just awful.
White supremacists are going to eventually have to get over racial diversity.
It's here to stay.
The next big thing is going to be trans folk acceptance. I've seen that already
becoming mainstream. In a group of ultra-traditional rural types, the subject
recently came up. Sure there were some dismissive outraged types, but
there were also guys who knew someone who did the change. It's moving
from being threatening & strange to merely empathetic & strange.

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 30, 2016

Revoltingest said:
I haven't seen anything cromulent yet.
This isn't just denial....there's simply nothing offered but highly partisan opinion,
eg, the Huff Po article which tries to paint the entire alt right by criticizing a few
associated with it. If this approach were valid, then it would also demolish
progressives, the left & liberals. So a standard of analysis is needed which
applies to all.

Add the Associated Press:

Usage

“Alt-right” (quotation marks, hyphen and lower case) may be used in quotes or modified as in the “self-described” or “so-called alt-right” in stories discussing what the movement says about itself.

Avoid using the term generically and without definition, however, because it is not well known and the term may exist primarily as a public-relations device to make its supporters’ actual beliefs less clear and more acceptable to a broader audience. In the past we have called such beliefs racist, neo-Nazi or white supremacist.

https://blog.ap.org/behind-the-news/writing-about-the-alt-right

A few writers on Twitter (including one I know personally) are saying that the Canadian Press Style Guide has been updated with similar guidance, but it's behind a paywall, so I can't confirm.

Revoltingest · Nov 30, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Add the Associated Press:

https://blog.ap.org/behind-the-news/writing-about-the-alt-right

A few writers on Twitter (including one I know personally) are saying that the Canadian Press Style Guide has been updated with similar guidance, but it's behind a paywall, so I can't confirm.

That is still one person's opinion, not the AP itself.
Consider Milo Y....etc....(long name).....
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/

What strikes me is that the alt right is a reaction to the Republican Party's moving
away from conservatism (whether this is right or wrong is above my pay grade).
But the left, eg, NPR is waging a propaganda campaign to categorize all alt righters
as racist. They do this with fibbing & sly guilt by association with a few nasty people.
Their followers buy this hook line & sinker because it's so bias comforting.
Do Nazis like this?
Yes. And violent victim mongers like to support Democrats, but you wouldn't
characterize the entire party as such, would you?

`mud · Nov 30, 2016

hey Rev,
How far is it to the edge ??

Revoltingest · Nov 30, 2016

'mud said:
hey Rev,
How far is it to the edge ??

All the way!

Moishe3rd · Dec 2, 2016

Quetzal said:
I am seeing this term tossed around a lot and when I try to research it, it is some of the most vile, racist crap I have ever read. I don't get it, what is this, exactly?

And invented basket of people designed to slander Donald Trump; Republicans; Conservatives; and anyone else the lying media hates.

Quetzal · Dec 2, 2016

Moishe3rd said:
And invented basket of people designed to slander Donald Trump; Republicans; Conservatives; and anyone else the lying media hates.

Most folks in this group self identify themselves as such... so...yeah.

`mud · Dec 2, 2016

But there's a lot of mirrors here !

Parchment · Dec 2, 2016

What is the Alt-Right?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

suncowiam

Well-Known Member

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

suncowiam

Well-Known Member

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

suncowiam

Well-Known Member

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

suncowiam

Well-Known Member

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

`mud

Just old

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

Moishe3rd

Yehudi

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.

`mud

Just old

Parchment

Active Member