What's in it for Satan?

Arrow · Jun 16, 2006

I should rephrase the first part of my paragraph for in the commentary it will say that some believe this to be a metaphor for Satan. My apologies

gnostic · Jun 16, 2006

But you are forgetting one thing, Arrow. Several chapters are foretelling of other empires and how "God" would punish these invaders. You already know of Babylon in chapter 13 and 14, but also a vision of Babylon again in 21. It speak of Assyria in chapter 8, 10 and 14:24-27. Philistine 14:28-32. Moab in 15-16, Syria in 17, Sudan 18, Egypt 19. etc, etc.

Shall I go on?

I am sure you can see the pattern here.

That Isaiah would use Lucifer as a metaphor for the king of Babylon, and that you would link Babylon to Satan, is understandable, since Satan is also linked to Lucifer, but when you see the pattern I see in Isaiah, then you should understand that I think the passages in chapter 14 is wrong.

I understand that in Book of Revelation, it speaks of Babylon again, but there are clear sign that it is really referring to Rome, not Satan, don't you think?

Burning babies in the hands of idols to sacrifice to Beelzebub (another name for Satan or Satan's brother)

Beelzebub is not an idol/god that the Babylonians worshipped.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Beelzebub is Babylonian?

Sorry, the Canaanites or other surrounding kingdoms like Moab or Edom may have adopted Beelzebub, but Beelzebub originated in Philistine, not Babylon. There are no absolutely references or sources anywhere of Beelzebub in the Mesopotamian/Babylonian pantheon.

I have been studying/researching Sumerian/Babylonian deities in the last couple of years and know most of the major deities, so I believed that you may have mistake in which idol belong to which kingdom.

Evandr2 · Jun 16, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
I know I don't often author threads, but every great once in a while I have a thought that I just cannot get away from, and this is one that hit me the other night, probably over a White Russian or 3.

The basic ghist of it is, What's in it for Satan? If there is a Satan, then he KNOWS that there is a God. What purpose would there be for Satan to try to get humans to go to Hell and suffer? Why would he not try to get back into God's good graces, if he knows the ultimate outcome to be a life of eternal suffering in Hell?

I mean, a person, living on Earth has no real and tangible reason for beleiving in God, but Satan has had dinner with God, why would he choose to be bad and condemn himself when he absolutely knows without any doubt that there is a Heaven? After all, Satan used to live there.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on the subject.

B.

What's in it for Satan? Nothing except the fact that misery loves company.
Did God create Satan to be evil? No, we were all sired (for lack of a more proper term) by a loving Heavenly Father on a level playing field and Satan (the son of the morning) grew to be who He became because of his own arrogance.

Satan simply lost track of who was running things and thought himself worthy to usurp the authority of God. A fatal mistake to be sure and he was not alone. Satan had to have had a considerable following, having rose to the forefront of his cause, to have ever thought that he could be successful at carrying out his designs.

Satan has committed the unpardonable sin. He denied the divinity of God. It is too late for him and his followers worlds without end. The only source of consolation for him is to see others loose their inheritance as he did.

Vandr

MdmSzdWhtGuy · Jun 16, 2006

Victor said:
But couldn't you say that of someone who willfully murders knowing the consequences? A person with free will follows what fulfills him/her FIRST, and thinks of the consequnces second. Don't you think?

Well I thought my fulfillment theory kinda answered this, but I guess not.

Victor,

These two quotes of yours are kind of in the same vein, so I left them both here to respond. For me, I can sort of understand a person who murders, to use your example, because I can see a set of circumstances where one's desire to kill another person overcomes their knowledge that it is wrong and illegal to commit murder. The murderer might get away with it. He might never get caught, or he may decide as so many Islamists do on a daily basis, that it is worth his own death to cause the death of another. These are all choices that, although extreme, at least make some sort of sense.

But if there is a Devil, then he must surely know he will never get away with it, in the sense of escaping eternal punishment. That, for me, is where the analogy falls a bit short. To me the Devil analogy is more like this: A person wants to steal a candy bar, but the punishment for stealing a candy bar is castration. This person goes ahead and steals the candy bar, with the police watching him do it, knowing full well what the police are going to do with the scissors in their hands.

That to me, is more like the stories we hear of the Fallen Angel Satan. Someone who has some hopes of getting away with something I can sort of understand, even if I don't agree with them. But someone who absolutely knows with all certainty that they will never get away with their transgression and willingly proceeds knowing they are going to be punished far in excess of their crime is what continues to baffle me.

But then I am often confused on these matters. Once again, thanks for all the responses.

B.

Arben · Jun 16, 2006

Satan is doomed to spend eternity in the lake of fire. He will not repent because he believes he can overthrow God. His pride and sinful ambition has blinded him to the way things really are, just as Satan deceives humans to keep them from seeing the truth about God.

The good news is that no one has to go to hell. By believing the truth that Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead we can ask Christ to be our Lord and receive forgiveness and spend eternity with God.

I realize that many on this forum will not agree with that, but it is the truth none-the-less.

Arrow · Jun 16, 2006

quote: gnostic "But you are forgetting one thing, Arrow. Several chapters are foretelling of other empires and how "God" would punish these invaders. You already know of Babylon in chapter 13 and 14, but also a vision of Babylon again in 21. It speak of Assyria in chapter 8, 10 and 14:24-27. Philistine 14:28-32. Moab in 15-16, Syria in 17, Sudan 18, Egypt 19. etc, etc."

I see the pattern, but they all have one thing in common. The rejection of God and the worship of another. I do not understand why Isa could not have described Satan's plans or purpose through the sins of cities that were controled by Satan. I would think that by repeating all of those cities, it is just repeating the point. Then again maybe i do not understand your point.

And the Beelzebub thing was totally my bad. I apologize.

Arrow · Jun 16, 2006

Arben, i completely agree.

cardero · Jun 16, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
The basic ghist of it is, What's in it for Satan? If there is a Satan, then he KNOWS that there is a God. What purpose would there be for Satan to try to get humans to go to Hell and suffer?
B.

As it has been explained to me by so many religions that if Satan is successful, Satan gets the privilege of sticking his thumbs in his ears and waving his hands and telling God Na Na -NaNa Na which when you think about all the suffering humans have to endure for this to happen, its not much of a pay off.

Quiddity · Jun 16, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Victor,

These two quotes of yours are kind of in the same vein, so I left them both here to respond. For me, I can sort of understand a person who murders, to use your example, because I can see a set of circumstances where one's desire to kill another person overcomes their knowledge that it is wrong and illegal to commit murder. The murderer might get away with it. He might never get caught, or he may decide as so many Islamists do on a daily basis, that it is worth his own death to cause the death of another. These are all choices that, although extreme, at least make some sort of sense.

But if there is a Devil, then he must surely know he will never get away with it, in the sense of escaping eternal punishment. That, for me, is where the analogy falls a bit short. To me the Devil analogy is more like this: A person wants to steal a candy bar, but the punishment for stealing a candy bar is castration. This person goes ahead and steals the candy bar, with the police watching him do it, knowing full well what the police are going to do with the scissors in their hands.

That to me, is more like the stories we hear of the Fallen Angel Satan. Someone who has some hopes of getting away with something I can sort of understand, even if I don't agree with them. But someone who absolutely knows with all certainty that they will never get away with their transgression and willingly proceeds knowing they are going to be punished far in excess of their crime is what continues to baffle me.

But then I am often confused on these matters. Once again, thanks for all the responses.

It is rather difficult to come up with an exact equivalent. I was trying to come up with an example that could let you into the mind of a person who refuses to be in communion with God even after knowing the consequences. I figured the idea of an extreme deterrent (like capital punishment) would not stop a sane free willed person from ever committing it. It's never 100%. To my knowledge, Texans still commit murder. Granted, this is a one time act. Those people may have regreted what they did. In the situation of Satan it wasn't a one time act, but a conscious decision that put him in a state of rebellion against God. Why someone would choose that direction is beyond you and me. But the question isn't "why" but "do" they have the capacity within them to do such a thing. The answer is rather obvious to me. It is the result of a gift given by God - Free will.

To further show my point, last year I posted a thread that read "what if God came down from the clouds and showed Himself". At this point no doubt should lie in the minds of anyone. Even then plenty of atheist rejected God and some said "if he is like the Christian God I still wouldn't follow him". Hell (which is simply seperation from God) was no deterrent what's so ever. So it doesn't seem far-fetched to me at all that Satan would reject even in the knowledge he contains.

jorylore · Jun 16, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Victor,

These two quotes of yours are kind of in the same vein, so I left them both here to respond. For me, I can sort of understand a person who murders, to use your example, because I can see a set of circumstances where one's desire to kill another person overcomes their knowledge that it is wrong and illegal to commit murder. The murderer might get away with it. He might never get caught, or he may decide as so many Islamists do on a daily basis, that it is worth his own death to cause the death of another. These are all choices that, although extreme, at least make some sort of sense.

But if there is a Devil, then he must surely know he will never get away with it, in the sense of escaping eternal punishment. That, for me, is where the analogy falls a bit short. To me the Devil analogy is more like this: A person wants to steal a candy bar, but the punishment for stealing a candy bar is castration. This person goes ahead and steals the candy bar, with the police watching him do it, knowing full well what the police are going to do with the scissors in their hands.

That to me, is more like the stories we hear of the Fallen Angel Satan. Someone who has some hopes of getting away with something I can sort of understand, even if I don't agree with them. But someone who absolutely knows with all certainty that they will never get away with their transgression and willingly proceeds knowing they are going to be punished far in excess of their crime is what continues to baffle me.

But then I am often confused on these matters. Once again, thanks for all the responses.

B.

Good responce. I totally follow you. All of this plays up the power of feeding the wrong desires that may lead us to sin. James tells us that once those wrong desires become fertile they will produce sin no matter what. Once you fall off the cliff, you WILL hit the ground. A person is not thinking of the consequences, they're thinking of the enjoyment, however temporary, of their actions.

That one delectable bite that will send their senses swirling into blissful chocolaty yumm.

(ok pretty lame but you get my point)

Have you ever wanted anything that bad?

Evandr2 · Jun 16, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Victor,

These two quotes of yours are kind of in the same vein, so I left them both here to respond. For me, I can sort of understand a person who murders, to use your example, because I can see a set of circumstances where one's desire to kill another person overcomes their knowledge that it is wrong and illegal to commit murder. The murderer might get away with it. He might never get caught, or he may decide as so many Islamists do on a daily basis, that it is worth his own death to cause the death of another. These are all choices that, although extreme, at least make some sort of sense.

But if there is a Devil, then he must surely know he will never get away with it, in the sense of escaping eternal punishment. That, for me, is where the analogy falls a bit short. To me the Devil analogy is more like this: A person wants to steal a candy bar, but the punishment for stealing a candy bar is castration. This person goes ahead and steals the candy bar, with the police watching him do it, knowing full well what the police are going to do with the scissors in their hands.

That to me, is more like the stories we hear of the Fallen Angel Satan. Someone who has some hopes of getting away with something I can sort of understand, even if I don't agree with them. But someone who absolutely knows with all certainty that they will never get away with their transgression and willingly proceeds knowing they are going to be punished far in excess of their crime is what continues to baffle me.

But then I am often confused on these matters. Once again, thanks for all the responses.

B.

Your viewpoint has merit but have you ever heard anyone say "If only I knew then what I know now"? I think that this statement had especially intense meaning for Lucifer.

Lucifer took a calculated gamble and lost. The world is full of foolish people who take such risks even though the evidence indicates that they have very little, if any, chance for success.

I believe that Lucifer's pride had a great deal to do with his choosing to go over the edge. Remember, he had 1/3 the host of Heaven on his side egging him on. The humility necessary to turn aside from that kind of prompting was more than Lucifer had so he foolishly went ahead thinking that failure just couldn't happen to him.

You can tell a fool the consequences of their actions but a fool is a fool and will ignore them. I am sure that Lucifer weighed what he thought the risks entailed against the potential reward and went for it.

It is sad to have to realize but the rhetorical question "How could someone be so stupid?"

is one that is used throughout our history and apparently during our pre-existence.

Vandr

gnostic · Jun 17, 2006

Arrow said:
I see the pattern, but they all have one thing in common. The rejection of God and the worship of another. I do not understand why Isa could not have described Satan's plans or purpose through the sins of cities that were controled by Satan. I would think that by repeating all of those cities, it is just repeating the point. Then again maybe i do not understand your point.

The point I am getting at, is that all these enemies of Israel will be punished by God. They referred to these neighbouring kingdoms, and only one kingdom, the empire of Babylon was mentioned in connection of Lucifer, aka your Satan, of only a few passage in chapter 14. With each kingdom is a common theme, their destruction. By comparing the various chapters, it is clear that Isaiah is only writing of the fall of Lucifer as the Babylonian king that would fall.

I would have agreed with you on that passage 14:12-15, if I chose to ignore the whole message. But I chooses to read the whole chapter, particularly from verses 3-23, and that make me believe that the Son of Morning Star or Lucifer is actually meant to be the king of Babylon, not of Satan. To ignore the rest of the verses is to force interpretation upon a small selective text, then the original meaning of that text is lost to mean something else.

Arrow · Jun 17, 2006

I understand that Babylon is the main vocus. (I totally agree) But why can there not be a double meaning behind it. Did not Satan also say that same things in his heart that the king of Babylon did. Was not Satan's sin the thought that he could be better than God just as the king of Babylon.

I dont know, i am just going with this: "
Isa 14:12 -
Isa_14:12-15. The Jews address the him again as a fallen once-bright star.
The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given." -Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown commentary

Melody · Jun 17, 2006

Evandr2 said:
Satan has committed the unpardonable sin. He denied the divinity of God. It is too late for him and his followers worlds without end. The only source of consolation for him is to see others loose their inheritance as he did.

Frubals.

Arrow · Jun 18, 2006

why do not we just ask the Satanists?

Carlos Andres Restrepo · Jun 18, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
I know I don't often author threads, but every great once in a while I have a thought that I just cannot get away from, and this is one that hit me the other night, probably over a White Russian or 3.

The basic ghist of it is, What's in it for Satan? If there is a Satan, then he KNOWS that there is a God. What purpose would there be for Satan to try to get humans to go to Hell and suffer? Why would he not try to get back into God's good graces, if he knows the ultimate outcome to be a life of eternal suffering in Hell?

I mean, a person, living on Earth has no real and tangible reason for beleiving in God, but Satan has had dinner with God, why would he choose to be bad and condemn himself when he absolutely knows without any doubt that there is a Heaven? After all, Satan used to live there.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on the subject.

B.

I do not believe in satan, if there is a satan, or a malign force, it would be also God trying to keep balance....what i mean, we can not say that a God is everything in the universe without including the so-called "bad things" or "sins"- they are also part of life, and bad things happen for us to learn. Well i would rather say that satan is the image of humans to all that is bad and scary, is a way to hate the bad things, a way to don't accept the bad things, and just to scare people........Satan uhmmmm he could be an excellent hockey player

What's in it for Satan?

Arrow

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gnostic

The Lost One

Evandr2

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MdmSzdWhtGuy

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Arben

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Arrow

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Arrow

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cardero

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Quiddity

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jorylore

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Evandr2

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gnostic

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Arrow

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Melody

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Arrow

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Carlos Andres Restrepo

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