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Let There Be Light and There was Light

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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Let There Be Light and There Was Light

"The Lord said, 'Let there be light and there was light.'" If we read about the Essenes Theology, the world is divided between darkness and light. First, there was darkness and the Lord said, "Let there be light, and there was light."

Genesis 1:3 was the very first prophecy about the rise of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But, till then, spiritual darkness was all over the earth. Hence, the Flood was necessary as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had not risen yet.

Soon after the Flood the Lord promised Noah that He would never strike Mankind again with another universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood as long as the laws of Nature functioned properly. (Genesis 8:21,22)

The "Let there be light" of Genesis 1:3 was in fulfillment with the rise of Israel. Jeremiah read that text and connected it with Israel by saying that the natural laws would function properly as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Isaiah must also have read that text of Genesis 1:3 and said that Israel had been assigned as light unto the nations. (Isaiah 42:6) Last but not least, Jesus also must have read that text when he said that the Jews are the light of the world in Mat. 5:14 and that salvation comes from the Jews; universal salvation there is. (John 4:22)
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Ben Avraham said:
Let There Be Light and There Was Light

"The Lord said, 'Let there be light and there was light.'" If we read about the Essenes Theology, the world is divided between darkness and light. First, there was darkness and the Lord said, "Let there be light, and there was light."
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I am briefly acquainted with that by Wikipedia and skimming some resources. There are theories about who the 'Teacher of Righteousness' is. I wonder if it could be referring to the Torah rather than a human.

Ben Avraham said:
Genesis 1:3 was the very first prophecy about the rise of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But, till then, spiritual darkness was all over the earth. Hence, the Flood was necessary as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had not risen yet.
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I have heard that somewhere, but the oldest testimony I have to that is the way the Gospel of John uses Genesis, which John also attributes to the beginning of a ministry. So I figure if John does it why not everybody else? He probably gets the idea from previous people. That being said I don't think everyone agrees that Genesis is a prophecy about Abraham, and in Christian circles its rare to find people who do.

Ben Avraham said:
Soon after the Flood the Lord promised Noah that He would never strike Mankind again with another universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood as long as the laws of Nature functioned properly. (Genesis 8:21,22)
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If the creation story is about the beginning of Abraham's ministry, then the Flood is a story about the destruction of a fallen and corrupt ministry and its renewal through Moses. So the 'Living creatures' refers to Abraham's descendants, his tribes; and the covenant here not to destroy the Earth is a prophecy about the 'Mosaic' covenant, given what you have said about the creation story. Its like a restatement of promises that Israel won't ever fail completely.

Ben Avraham said:
The "Let there be light" of Genesis 1:3 was in fulfillment with the rise of Israel. Jeremiah read that text and connected it with Israel by saying that the natural laws would function properly as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Isaiah must also have read that text of Genesis 1:3 and said that Israel had been assigned as light unto the nations. (Isaiah 42:6) Last but not least, Jesus also must have read that text when he said that the Jews are the light of the world in Mat. 5:14 and that salvation comes from the Jews; universal salvation there is. (John 4:22)
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Israel rose and fell repeatedly. First there was "Let there be light" but then corruption and violence appeared and intermarriage with uncommitted people, and so a flood wiped out all but a small seed of people. Either that or so many left the faith that it was kind of the same thing.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Brickjectivity said:
I am briefly acquainted with that by Wikipedia and skimming some resources. There are theories about who the 'Teacher of Righteousness' is. I wonder if it could be referring to the Torah rather than a human.
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IMHO, the Teacher of Righteousness was Ezra, the Scribe who canonized the Torah and all the Tanach and wrote most of it from fragments.

I have heard that somewhere, but the oldest testimony I have to that is the way the Gospel of John uses Genesis, which John also attributes to the beginning of a ministry. So I figure if John does it why not everybody else? He probably gets the idea from previous people. That being said I don't think everyone agrees that Genesis is a prophecy about Abraham, and in Christian circles its rare to find people who do.
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The Torah aka all the Tanach was written many years after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Almost every thing had already happened when the writer responsible for the statement that, "Let there be light" was a prophecy about the rise of Israel.

If the creation story is about the beginning of Abraham's ministry, then the Flood is a story about the destruction of a fallen and corrupt ministry and its renewal through Moses. So the 'Living creatures' refers to Abraham's descendants, his tribes; and the covenant here not to destroy the Earth is a prophecy about the 'Mosaic' covenant, given what you have said about the creation story. Its like a restatement of promises that Israel won't ever fail completely.
Click to expand...

Only that the fall of a so-called corrupt ministry as a result of the Flood had nothing to do with Moses and Israel.

Israel rose and fell repeatedly. First there was "Let there be light" but then corruption and violence appeared and intermarriage with uncommitted people, and so a flood wiped out all but a small seed of people. Either that or so many left the faith that it was kind of the same thing.
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The faith of pre-Flood people was akin to the children of darkness as the children of light had not risen yet. And regarding the repeated falls of Israel made the promises and blessings of HaShem conditional. The consolation is that, of the other nations the Lord would eventually get rid of them, but of Israel, He would only chastise as we deserve.(Jeremiah 46:28)
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
Genesis 1:3 was the very first prophecy about the rise of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But, till then, spiritual darkness was all over the earth. Hence, the Flood was necessary as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had not risen yet.
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If that is true, how do you explain the rest of Genesis 1 and 2?
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
Metaphorically. Any attempt to go literal with Genesis, one will be trapped in contradictions with Physics and Logic.
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What contradictions with physics and light?

Those who do not go literally with "after their kind" will be trapped by what science teaches us 1000's of times every day.
 
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Didachist

Member
Yours is an interesting quote son of Abraham, My question would be if you are a Jew why do you use Christian passages, also you have the idea that the very world was split between light and darkness, this idea if found amongst the essenes would surely be a sign of the tainting of judaism with zoastrianism, this in hebrew is refered to as avodah zarah.

lets consult the targum on this passage to see if the translation of darkness as what we refer to as darkness is found as the Christian scripture would say "without form" ie nothingness not a metaphysical darkness contrasted with light.


I. At the beginning (min avella) the Lord created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was vacancy and desolation, solitary of the sons of men, and void of every animal; and darkness was upon the face of the abyss, and the Spirit of mercies from before the Lord breathed upon the face of the waters.

[JERUSALEM TARGUM. In wisdom (be-hukema) the Lord created. And the earth was vacancy and desolation, and solitary of the sons of men, and void of every animal; and the Spirit of mercies from before the Lord breathed upon the face of the waters.]

And the Lord said, Let there be light and to enlighten above; and at once there was light. And the Lord beheld the light, that it was good; and the Lord divided between the light and the darkness. And the Lord call the light Day; and He made it that the inhabiters of the world might labour by it: and the darkness called He night; and He made it that in it the creatures might have rest. And it was evening, and it was morning, the First Day.


so our conclusion from reading this should be, that there was nothing, it wad desolate, and there was darkness upon the face of a great pit (so nothing on nothing) amd then when the created light was created he then divided between Light and darkness (but not nothingness) as this light is not measured by darkness rather it is darkness in which is measured by light.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Didachist said:
Yours is an interesting quote son of Abraham, My question would be if you are a Jew why do you use Christian passages, also you have the idea that the very world was split between light and darkness, this idea if found amongst the essenes would surely be a sign of the tainting of judaism with zoastrianism, this in hebrew is refered to as avodah zarah. .
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Yes Didachist, I am a Jew and I use Christian passages because Jesus was also a Jew and whoever wrote the NT did not think twice to use him to fight his own Faith which was Judaism. Since both of us just happened to share the same Faith, someone must stand for the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. I don't know if you are aware of, the NT, he never even dreamed it would ever rise.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
omega2xx said:
What contradictions with physics and light?

Those who do not go literally with "after their kind" will be trapped by what science teaches us 1000's of times every day.
Click to expand...

I said, "In contradiction with Physics and Logic" not light. Regarding your "after their kind" you cannot just throw that in
from nowhere. Quote the text where you got that from, and I'll provide you with a response.
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
Okay! Now, please, tell me what light did the NT add to the light of Israel? As you know, I suppose, in his sermon of the mount to a crowd of Jews, Jesus said, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)
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John 8:12 (NKJV) 12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 9:3-5 (NKJV) 3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jesus also said "HE" was the light.


And, what has the two great lights have to do with good and bad?

Genesis 1:14-19 (NKJV) Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
djhwoodwerks said:
John 8:12 (NKJV) 12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
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Of course, Jesus was also the light of the world. He was a Jew, wasn't he? There! The impression you had left upon me before I had that revelation was that Jesus was lying when he said that the Jews were the light of the world. (Mat. 5:14)

John 9:3-5 (NKJV) 3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
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Yes, but as part of Israel, the light of the nations. (Isaiah 42:6)

Jesus also said "HE" was the light.
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As I said above, as part of the People of Israel. Any Jew, speaking as part of the People can say he is the way, the Truth and the light and that no one can go to God but through him. That was also the point
with the book of Job whose Gentile friends could not offer a sacrifice to the Lord if not through Job who represented Israel. (Job 42:7-10)

And, what has the two great lights have to do with good and bad?
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That's a reference to the Essene Theology between the Jews and the Gentiles aka the children of light versus the children of darkness. Light for good and darkness for bad.

Genesis 1:14-19 (NKJV) Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
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That was a reference to the literal according to Physics, the sun to lighten by day and the moon and stars by night and to determine the seasons. Only that the light in the first day was a Theological reference to the rising of Israel. The purpose of Genesis was not to teach Astronomy but the Theology of Israel. Besides, the truth is not that the book was written in the first week of Creation but many years afterwards. One must swerve between what is literal and what is metaphorical to get to the point.
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D

Didachist

Member
Ben Avraham said:
Yes Didachist, I am a Jew and I use Christian passages because Jesus was also a Jew and whoever wrote the NT did not think twice to use him to fight his own Faith which was Judaism. Since both of us just happened to share the same Faith, someone must stand for the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. I don't know if you are aware of, the NT, he never even dreamed it would ever rise.
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Im sorry, but what are you trying to say here?

The most puzzling part was the end. "I don't know if you are aware of, the NT, he never even dreamed it would ever rise."

I believe the very possibility is you are a Brother of mine in Christ and you mix yourself with the Christ denying Talmudists.
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
@Ben Avraham
I don't know how your whole reply to my post ended up as a quote, but I can't quote your post.

All I have to say is, I really think you need to re-read Genesis a few times to get an understanding of what it is really about! I know you are Jewish, and probably think yourself a pharisee or a rabbi, or a master or whatever you call it, but you need to read it again!
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
I said, "In contradiction with Physics and Logic" not light. Regarding your "after their kind" you cannot just throw that in
from nowhere. Quote the text where you got that from, and I'll provide you with a response.
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Your name sounds Jewish. Surely Jewish theology includes chapter 1 of Genesis. However:

Gen 1:11-12, 1:21, 1:24-24.

Although Gen 1:26 does not use that phrase, it does have the same thought as "after their kind."
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
Okay! Now, please, tell me what light did the NT add to the light of Israel? As you know, I suppose, in his sermon of the mount to a crowd of Jews, Jesus said, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)
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Mt 4:16 - The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great Light, and those sitting in the land and shadow of death, upon them a Light dawned.

2 Cor 4:4 - In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God.

2 Cor 4:6 - For God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shown in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ.

Rev 22:5 - And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
omega2xx said:
1 - Mt 4:16 - The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great Light, and those sitting in the land and shadow of death, upon them a Light dawned.

2 - 2 Cor 4:4 - In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God.

3 - 2 Cor 4:6 - For God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shown in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ.

4 - Rev 22:5 - And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
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1 - Those people sitting in darkness were of the Gentiles from Assyria sent to Galilee to replace the Ten Tribes of Israel. (Isaiah 8:23; 9:1-6)

2 - God does not have a physical image. How could Jesus be of the image of God?

3 - Your struggle to push Jesus into the prophecies of Isaiah is an act of Replacement Theology.

4 - This is a reference to the Tribe of Judah who was promised by God to David to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
omega2xx said:
Your name sounds Jewish. Surely Jewish theology includes chapter 1 of Genesis. However:

Gen 1:11-12, 1:21, 1:24-24.

Although Gen 1:26 does not use that phrase, it does have the same thought as "after their kind."
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You must be using the KJV. Perhaps that's the problem. I am using the JPS translation of the Tanach. The quotes you have given me above, the expression is "of every kind" and not "after their kind." But I can't see any thing relevant here. What is the point you are trying to understand?
 
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