Just Accidental?

syncretic said:

Deity is the ''cause''. You are demonstrating the problems with non-creationism, not my arguments.

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And you are demonstrating a problem understanding causality which require time and spatial location. If God is the cause then God is bound by time thus there is something greater than God. If God created time then it can not be a cause of anything. If our understanding of time only applies at a certain level then we can not apply it to the other level rendering causality moot

You haven't made an ''equal statement'', because you have no 'cause' referenced.

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No as I mimicked a different part of your argument.

I used self-caused. I can equally use eternal.

You are actually refuting the logic of your criticism.

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Since I am mimicking your points I am attacking the logic of your arguments.

Beside this is an empty claim as you have not demonstrated I have done this, merely asserted it.

ArtieE said:

Yes the odds are astronomical. There's almost an infinite number of different possible human DNA combinations and for that matter there's an almost infinite number of different possible DNA combinations full stop. And yet here you are against all odds by pure chance with no god making sure that exactly your DNA combination came up. And still some people, like the creator of this thread, think that the existence of a pretty duck requires that the duck DNA was especially made.

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My goodness ......it never ceases to amaze me how blind some people can be to very simple facts.

My mother did not give birth to a dog or a cat or any other creature because her human DNA combined with my fathers human DNA to produce a family of humans. No matter how much time elapses, that will always be the case. Humans will produce other humans as they were designed to do.
The duck DNA was already designed ready to be passed on to the next generation, who would all bear the same beautiful patterning. All species reproduce "according to their kind"....it's not rocket science is it?

The fossil record does not supersede this fact of nature. When science produces fossils with the assumption that evolution must have taken place, then it can fill in the gaps with imagination and all manner of "scientific" musings that cannot be proven.....it has to do that because there is nothing else to link one fossil to another. The chain is imaginary because no links actually exist.

The chance factor is not in an alteration of my genes, but in the diversity of our appearance, dictated by the combined gene pool. My siblings and I do not look alike, yet we are all humans with the same uniquely human characteristics. We have the same body structure and internal workings, yet we have different personalities, different hair color, different eye color, and somewhat different builds, yet all of this was dictated, not by chance, but by the genetic combination that resulted when fertilization took place in each occasion. You mistake the wonder of diversity for blind chance? Seriously, you are grasping at straws.

Is anybody else reading what I am reading in these replies? Seriously....we need to question the level to which some are willing to descend to prove their point. Pathetic guys.....I thought you were smarter than that?

The mechanism that produces life is beautifully crafted.....replicas of ourselves are produced because we are designed to do so. "Whom" we produce in that process is immaterial. It was 'humankind' that was to "fill the earth" along with all the other creatures designed to share life on this planet. If we are among them, then we need to be grateful that we have life, when the odds against us individually being here are astronomical.

Deeje said:

The duck DNA was already designed ready to be passed on to the next generation, who would all bear the same beautiful patterning. All species reproduce "according to their kind"....it's not rocket science is it?

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It isn't any kind of science. See my next post.

Deeje said:

The mechanism that produces life is beautifully crafted.....replicas of ourselves are produced because we are designed to do so. "Whom" we produce in that process is immaterial. It was 'humankind' that was to "fill the earth" along with all the other creatures designed to share life on this planet. If we are among them, then we need to be grateful that we have life, when the odds against us individually being here are astronomical.

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OK, let's say you are right. Now, let us go back through history. If we start with this generation of humans and animals, then go back to the previous one and so forth it stops with Noah's Ark since according to the Bible every animal and human are descendants from those on the Ark and the flood was in the year 2348 BC (give or take a little). Is this what you believe? If so, I would be especially interested in if there was just one dinosaur "kind" or several and if so if you could list them. Or had they all gone exinct already? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+5:32-10:1
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/timeline-for-the-flood/

I thought it might be interesting to know that genetically speaking the human race being descended from the eight people on the Ark is impossible. There was indeed a population bottleneck, but it would have to consist of several thousand individuals. But on the other hand, why would religious people care about that? They could just say that that was no problem for God.
http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-ve...does-genetics-point-to-a-single-primal-couple

Edit: The lowest possible number of people in the bottlenecks were 1200. Not two or eight. And that was 20 to 40 thousand years ago. Not 2348 BC.
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpres...opulation-bottleneck-not-anything-close-to-2/

Deeje said:

Is anybody else reading what I am reading in these replies? Seriously....we need to question the level to which some are willing to descend to prove their point. Pathetic guys.....I thought you were smarter than that?

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You wrote and I quote:

"The placement of earth where it is in this galaxy, with this position in relation to other heavenly bodies in its orbit around a permanent heat and light source, the angle of its axis, speed of rotation and mixture of gases in its atmosphere.....an abundance of water, and just the right circumstances for life to not just exist, but to flourish, is certainly no accident."

If you being here at all is an accident against incalculable odds, why not the placement of earth and the conditions on it? Why not life?

ArtieE said:

OK, let's say you are right. Now, let us go back through history. If we start with this generation of humans and animals, then go back to the previous one and so forth it stops with Noah's Ark since according to the Bible every animal and human are descendants from those on the Ark and the flood was in the year 2348 BC (give or take a little). Is this what you believe? If so, I would be especially interested in if there was just one dinosaur "kind" or several and if so if you could list them. Or had they all gone exinct already? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+5:32-10:1
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/timeline-for-the-flood/

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Is that a serious question? There is absolutely no evidence that humans and dinosaurs ever shared the same air or land space at the same time. I am not a YEC. What Noah took into the ark was what God brought to him. Noah did not have to go out and lasso them. There was a pair of each "kind" of wild animals and 7 of the more domestic ones.

Noah was told to gather stores of food for all these animals as well as for the human occupants of this massive floating zoo. It was not a boat, but a monolithic chest....it had no bow or stern and no rudder....it was designed to float, not to navigate. The ratios of height to length to width, are still used by ship builders to this day because of its incredible stability in all conditions. How did Noah know how to build such a vessel when no one had ever taught him to? God gave him the plans, which he carried out to the letter. Because he had to start this project from scratch, it would have taken him decades to complete. Why didn't God just provide an ark already built? Because we have to learn how to save ourselves...it will not be handed to us, but is something we have to put in effort to achieve.

After the flood waters subsided, and they stepped out on dry land, there is nothing to suggest that God could not speed up the breeding capacity of the creatures he chose to survive. They would have been prime specimens and he had the power to accelerate their reproduction. And as the waters flooded the whole earth, where did the water go? If the poles are magnetic and the water was drawn to the poles and snap frozen through drastic climatic change, then there is your answer. Why are scientists now warning about global warming? If the polar ice melts, the earth will again be flooded.

Why do you want to put human limitations on a being who has no such limits?

Today, we are either building our own "ark" or we are building our own coffin. The people in Noah's day thought that it was safe to ignore this old crackpot, because everyone else was doing it. Jesus used this scenario as a warning about what would happen again. (Matthew 24:37-39) We need to be careful about complacency and popular opinion....it isn't always a good gauge where God is concerned.

He will not force himself on anyone who doesn't want him. I think that is quite fair...don't you?

Deeje said:

Why do you want to put human limitations on a being who has no such limits?

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This is why it is impossible for us to have a rational dialogue with you. We don't cheat. We don't have a god up our sleeve we can just use whenever we want to explain things that can't be explained logically or rationally.

ArtieE said:

This is why it is impossible for us to have a rational dialogue with you. We don't cheat. We don't have a god up our sleeve we can just use whenever we want to explain things that can't be explained logically or rationally.

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You treat science as your very limited god. If science hasn't got a theory about something, it consequently doesn't exist even in the realms of possibility.
When you ask the obvious question..."could life arise by chance?", evolutionists are quick to point out that abiogenesis is not their field, as if the question itself is unrelated. It is so relevant that it could turn the whole theory on its ear.

Evolutionists, by necessity, have a belief system that has way too many assumptions and no real evidence. They point to their fossils and the story they supposedly tell, but deny that there is no real link between them that wasn't a figment of some learned imagination. You can quote scientific articles and DNA studies but none of it proves any real link between the bones of one creature and the bones of another, separated by millions of years.

I am trying to get you to realize that science is a substitute for religion to many people. Instead of "God did it" you replace that with "Natural Selection did it" but you have no more "scientific" proof for your statement than I do. Is that so hard to admit?

I don't find evolution to be logical or rational. I believe it flies in the face of both.....unless you have an agenda....that a Creator must be an impossibility because science can't find him or explain him.

Deeje said:

When you ask the obvious question..."could life arise by chance?", evolutionists are quick to point out that abiogenesis is not their field, as if the question itself is unrelated.

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But when I ask the obvious question "can you yourself be here by chance given that the odds against your exact DNA coming up are practically infinitely great" why don't you say your god must have seen to it personally that your DNA came up?

I don't find evolution to be logical or rational. I believe it flies in the face of both.....unless you have an agenda....that a Creator must be an impossibility because science can't find him or explain him.

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Biologists can't include your god in their theories, seismologists can't include Poseidon and meteorologists can't include Thor. Why should the god you happen to believe in be an exception?

Deeje said:

You treat science as your very limited god. If science hasn't got a theory about something, it consequently doesn't exist even in the realms of possibility.
When you ask the obvious question..."could life arise by chance?", evolutionists are quick to point out that abiogenesis is not their field, as if the question itself is unrelated.

It is so relevant that it could turn the whole theory on its ear.

Evolutionists, by necessity, have a belief system that has way too many assumptions and no real evidence. They point to their fossils and the story they supposedly tell, but deny that there is no real link between them that wasn't a figment of some learned imagination. You can quote scientific articles and DNA studies but none of it proves any real link between the bones of one creature and the bones of another, separated by millions of years.

I am trying to get you to realize that science is a substitute for religion to many people. Instead of "God did it" you replace that with "Natural Selection did it" but you have no more "scientific" proof for your statement than I do. Is that so hard to admit?

I don't find evolution to be logical or rational. I believe it flies in the face of both.....unless you have an agenda....that a Creator must be an impossibility because science can't find him or explain him.

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No matter how much you deny it, the excellent fossil record of sea to land transition of fish-amphibians, land to sea transition of whales, ape to human transition and dinosaur to bird transition are excellent and unambiguous evidence for the theory of evolution. They have been presented here with great detail and your refusal to accept them is bit like a person closing his eyes and saying "there is no light, there is no light." Be like that , but don't expect us to blind ourselves likewise.

ArtieE said:

But when I ask the obvious question "can you yourself be here by chance given that the odds against your exact DNA coming up are practically infinitely great" why don't you say your god must have seen to it personally that your DNA came up?

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I am amazed by your reasoning.....who said that my exact DNA had to be foreordained even by creation? As I have gone to great lengths to clarify, it is my species that is designed along with all the rest of the living things on this planet. The reproductive abilities in all of them assure us of one thing...they reproduce replicas of themselves "according to their kinds". No matter how many generations come and go, all species will remain within their "kind". Small adaptations may occur in any given species, if climatic conditions or food sources change, but they will always remain within their "kinds". Adaptation is not proof of organic evolution.

The fossil "evidence" is no such thing. It is strung together with wishful thinking.

Biologists can't include your god in their theories, seismologists can't include Poseidon and meteorologists can't include Thor. Why should the god you happen to believe in be an exception?

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Why would they want to? These gods are mythological. None of them are creators and none of them left written instructions for the human race that are still in existence. There is only one Creator and he has left us a guidebook outlining his activities and expectations. He has little interest in what science has to say about any of his work. He does not require you to believe in him, but he does require that the system of things operating on earth at the present time will come to a conclusion. We as individuals can avail ourselves of his good favor and enjoy what he is offering to all mankind, or we can go on our merry way and find out that this theory resulted in a dead end, with absolutely nowhere to go. The end result will be entirely up to us.

You get what you ask for.

sayak83 said:

No matter how much you deny it, the excellent fossil record of sea to land transition of fish-amphibians, land to sea transition of whales, ape to human transition and dinosaur to bird transition are excellent and unambiguous evidence for the theory of evolution. They have been presented here with great detail and your refusal to accept them is bit like a person closing his eyes and saying "there is no light, there is no light." Be like that , but don't expect us to blind ourselves likewise.

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The fossil record is a deluded fantasy with no more solid scientific evidence than I have. There is not one single piece of scientific fact linking any species to another in the fossil record and you know it. The great detail is fabricated as a web of suggestions and conjecture held together by diagrams out of human imagination. It is 100% supposition. You can deny it all you like, but there are definitely some here who are closing their eyes to the truth. If you are blind, then it is by your own choice. The overwhelming evidence is for Intelligent Design, not a string of very fortunate undirected accidents.

Deeje said:

The overwhelming evidence is for Intelligent Design, not a string of very fortunate undirected accidents.

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And yet you claim that you yourself is here against immeasurable odds because of a string of very fortunate undirected accidents.

ArtieE said:

And yet you claim that you yourself is here against immeasurable odds because of a string of very fortunate undirected accidents.

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Not my species, nor any other creature on this planet for that matter....the fortunate occurrence that produced either you or me is the result of an amazing mechanism whereby diversity and variety is achieved without any conscious effort on the part of our parents.
No matter how many generations come and go.....humans and these animals will always be born true to their "kind".


Awwwwe....look how cute all these fortunate little accidents are......c'mon....tell me they just designed themselves and we all just happen to find them adorable.


......have you run out of arguments?

Deeje said:

Not my species, nor any other creature on this planet for that matter....the fortunate occurrence that produced either you or me

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For you to be here at all your parents would have to meet and one particular sperm would have to meet one particular egg. And their parents would have to meet and one particular sperm would have to meet one particular egg. All the way back to Adam and Eve. Not to mention all the other things that would have to happen through history for you to be here. Do you still claim that you are here by chance with no divine intervention? If so why not life? Why not a pretty cat?

ArtieE said:

For you to be here at all your parents would have to meet and one particular sperm would have to meet one particular egg. And their parents would have to meet and one particular sperm would have to meet one particular egg. All the way back to Adam and Eve. Not to mention all the other things that would have to happen through history for you to be here. Do you still claim that you are here by chance with no divine intervention? If so why not life?

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You are just not getting it, are you? The "divine intervention" was the creation of the first humans. They were designed with procreative abilities and they were told to "fill the earth" with their "kind". This was true of all living things on this planet. That mandate has been fulfilled.

Who get to be among the ones with the 'golden ticket' is not relevant. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I do not see myself as anything but fortunate to be born and to have life...its truly a miracle. I was one sperm away from being somebody else. But since I would never have been born, who would have missed me? My individual life was not foreordained in any way.

Your argument is a little silly for the simple reason that the Creator designed life to replicate.....who it produces is not important. But humans will remain humans for all time to come. They will not evolve into something else. We did not evolve from primates and there is not one single shred of solid evidence that evolution ever took place. You cannot prove me wrong.
Supposition is not fact....and supposition is all you have. I don't think you really look at the evidence, which is why I post pictures of real creatures rather than the made up ones invented by science.

Deeje said:

I do not see myself as anything but fortunate to be born and to have life...its truly a miracle. I was one sperm away from being somebody else. But since I would never have been born, who would have missed me? My individual life was not foreordained in any way.

Your argument is a little silly for the simple reason that the Creator designed life to replicate.....

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Your argument is also a little silly because if you can be a result of a countless number of accidents all the way from Adam and Eve up to now who are you to claim that life or a pretty rabbit can't be the result of a number of accidents?

Deeje said:

Moses only wrote the Pentateuch between 1513 BCE and 1473 BCE.

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There are no evidences to the exodus ever historically occurring: the slavery and liberation, the 10 pestilences, and the invasion of Canaan.

There are no evidences to support that Moses ever lived. And that make it highly unlikely Moses wrote anything.

And beside that...the invasion of Canaan after Moses' death...whether this be 1513 or 1473 BCE, would have occurred during the 18th dynasty (1549 – 1292 BCE) in New Kingdom Egypt. That's not likely to happen. The are number of reasons why Joshua couldn't invade Canaan.

For one, Canaan and Syria was in the hand of Egypt most of the time, during the 18th dynasty. There were a lot of strong rulers in the early half of 18th dynasty, during late 16th and early 15th centuries BCE.



I would put the date of the Israelites leaving Egypt in 1446 BCE, which would mean Moses' death occurring 1406 BCE, and invasion after this date. The reason being King Solomon (only if he was a real king), supposedly c 970 - 930 BCE, and the temple foundation in 966 BCE (source: 1 Kings 6:1).

2 Kings 6:1]6 In the [B]four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt[/B] said:

11 So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh.

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Archaeologically, it is clear that these 2 cities were built at different time.

Pithom was built some times in 18th or 17th century BCE, which is the 13th dynasty (Middle Kingdom).

While Rameses or more precisely Pi-Ramesses (the House of Ramesses) was named after Ramesses II (1279 – 1213 BCE), the 2nd king of 19th dynasty.

So the cities weren't built at any date, you and I have provided.

Deeje said:

Daniel wrote about Michael and Gabriel in 536 BCE and these are the only two angels ever mentioned by name.

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Again, like Moses, it most likely Daniel is not a real person.

There are no historical evidences that Daniel was ever advising any Neo-Babylonian king.

So forgive me, if I cannot take your claims about Moses and Daniel seriously.