Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

joeboonda · Mar 18, 2006

man, did u not study my above posts??? Jesus is God! look at my posts, the evidence of scripture is overwhelming!!!!!!! ugh.

sandy whitelinger · Mar 18, 2006

joeboonda said:
John 5:22-23 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Jesus is to be given equal honor with the Father.

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Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

In His Great Commission baptismal command, Jesus said to baptize in the name (not names) of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is a strong implication of coequality among Father, Son and Holy Spirit in this verse.

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Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Ezekiel 34:31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.

John 10:14 I [Jesus] am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.

Hebrews 13:20 ...our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep...

Often in the Old Testament God is referred to as the Shepherd of His flock, His people. Jesus said of Himself, I am the good shepherd.

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Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

...God...His own blood! The blood of Jesus Christ, shed for our redemption, is called Gods own blood. The blood of Deity, nothing less!

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Isaiah 8:13-14a The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he [the Lord Almighty] will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.

1 Peter 2:4, 7-8a As you come to him [Jesus], the living Stone rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him ...[7] Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, and, A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.

It is evident that the stone that causes men to stumble and [the] rock that makes them fall of Isaiah and Peter are one and the same. The wording in the Old and New Testaments is identical. Peter knows Him as Jesus Christ; Isaiah calls Him The Lord Almighty! The name the Lord Almighty is used in the Bible, then, to identify both Jesus the Son and God the Father.

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Exodus 3:13-14 Moses said to God, Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they ask me, What is his name? Then what shall I tell them? God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.

John 8:58-59 I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

God identified Himself to Moses by the name I AM. Jesus identified Himself to the Jews as that very same I AM. The Jews knew exactly what He was claiming and sought to stone Him for such apparent blasphemy that is, His (true!) claim to be the I AM who spoke to Moses.

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Isaiah 11:1-2 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 The days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

Jesus Christ is the Lords Branch from the line of David. Jeremiah prophesied that the name of this Branch would be The Lord our Righteousness in Hebrew, JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU. The divine name JEHOVAH (some translate it Yahweh) is applied to Jesus Christ.

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Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1-3 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is written in Isaiah the prophet: I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way a voice of one calling in the desert, Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.

Isaiah speaks of a messenger preparing the way for our God. Mark shows that Isaiahs prophecy spoke of John the Baptists preparing for the coming of JESUS! Truly He is our God. It is small wonder that Thomas, beholding the resurrected Son, could cry, My Lord and my God!

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Hebrews 3:3-4 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

In verse 3 Jesus is the builder. In verse 4 God is the builder of all.
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Joe, all of this is good but I fear this might turn into another 300 response thread on the deity of Christ. I'd like to narrow it down to Psalm 110 if you like.

sandy whitelinger · Mar 18, 2006

DTrent said:
Isn't the point being in the Scripture that Jesus is David's son in the sense that he's in his lineage? Jesus is called Lord but not LORD. (The all-caps indicate God, not Christ.).

I'll have to look into it to be sure but perhaps the all caps is used because the Hebrew for Jehovah was used in that place. But the problem I'm trying to address in general and more specifically here is how running to the Hebrew (by those not extremely well schooled in Hebrew and Biblical knowledge) winds up hoplessly twists any understanding. Following the thread through the English will carry you to a conclusion. In Psalm 110 it is obviously refering to Christ as the Messiah. Follow then the reference to the day of wrath and and making his enemies His footstool and it will be inescapable that Christ is diety. The only way around this is to either get people lost in variations of Hebrew (or Greek or for that matter even English) words or trivializing books like Revelation or refering to Paul or John as an inept commentators.

DTrent said:
Inotherwords, the Pharisees should have done their homework & realized that Jesus came in the line of David & truly was the Messiah. They just did not want to admit it.

I do believe that the Pharasees did their homework and knew that Messiah would be "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and a descendant of David. Their problem, as I see the problem of a few people, here is that Jesus pointed their inability to see that David would call his son Lord only if he was deity.

Maybe some of those who like to run and put everything in it's historical and cultural context could point out that elevating an offspring to a higher place than the father (in this case referring to a 14th generation removed son as Lord) was frowned upon. Refer to the dreams of Joseph when the sun, moon and stars made obesience to him. This puzzled Joseph's brothers and father because that meant that they were going to bow down (if that's the right term) to a son and a younger brother.

joeboonda · Mar 18, 2006

Oh, okay, sorry! Yeah, I believe psalm 110 is about the messiah, who I believe is Jesus, who I believe is God the Son. But I will just state my belief and leave it at that.

DTrent · Apr 12, 2006

Actually, the evidence is overwhelming that Christ is THE SON OF GOD.
Jehovah & Jesus are 2 different individuals. When researching various Bibles, the honest, humble & hungry Bible student will come to this conclusion. It is simple & straight-forward, easy for the simple person to grasp. No one need be a 'scholar' to believe this. The simplier, the better. Jesus was a common Jew, a man for the people. He was not high-minded. His teachings are for EVERYONE.

may · Apr 13, 2006

DTrent said:
Actually, the evidence is overwhelming that Christ is THE SON OF GOD.
Jehovah & Jesus are 2 different individuals. When researching various Bibles, the honest, humble & hungry Bible student will come to this conclusion. It is simple & straight-forward, easy for the simple person to grasp. No one need be a 'scholar' to believe this. The simplier, the better. Jesus was a common Jew, a man for the people. He was not high-minded. His teachings are for EVERYONE.

yes i agree with this, it seems very plain to me from the bible ,that Jehovah and Jesus are seperate , Father and first-born son.

DTrent · Jun 15, 2006

joeboonda said:
I got this from the following, it is 3 parts, (posts)

http://www.jimfeeney.org/deityofjesuschrist.htm

John 5:17-18 Jesus said to them, My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working. For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
^ It is important to note here that the Jews said the wrong thing/believed the wrong thing when they ASSUMED that Jesus was "making himself equal to God". Read vs 19-24 - Here Jesus said to the Jews that he cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. (2 individuals being spoken about here. Nothing here is proving that Jesus is God but that he is God's Son.)
Please also see Philippians 2:6 where we are told that Christ gave NO CONSIDERATION TO A SEISURE, namely, that he should be equal to God.
An excellent Scripture to use to show that Jesus NEVER tried to seize God's position. Remember vs 9 there - GOD exalted him. He did not exalt himself.
John 10:30-33 I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

^Again, the Jews are assuming the wrong thing about Jesus. He never claimed to BE God. They assumed he was making himself "a god". See vs 34-39 where Jesus talks about "gods" & the fact that the Father dispatched him into the world. Jesus did not dispatch himself.
He also explained EXACTLY what he meant about him & the Father "being one" if you read again vs 38 - THEY ARE IN UNION, THEY ARE ONE, IN UNITY. They are not the same person.
Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

^ Christ has his Father's attributes, he is the exact REPRESENTATION of his Father (Heb.1:3) & he sat down on the right hand of God. (How could he sit down on the right hand of his own self?!? That would make no sense. He & Jehovah are indeed 2 distinct individuals.
Your quote of Phil.2:5,6 is right when it says that he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Inotherwords, he would never even THINK to grasp onto something that belonged to Jehovah. He never thought to seize Jehovah's position as God.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another...
^ True. Jehovah is God. (Note the caps.) More precise translations will rightfully put Jehovah's name in there since it IS a name. LORD is simply a title. Note that He does not give His glory to ANYONE else; that includes his own Son.
Isaiah 48:11c I will not yield my glory to another.

^Again, pls see above.
John 17:5 [Jesus prayed] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

^ He was firstborn of ALL creation; above all other angels.

Micah 5:2, King James Version But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
^Yes, way before the earth was created. Some Bibles say "from time indefinite." This is understandable but Jesus is NOT as old as God. Why? Becuz he had a beginning but God did not.
Vs. 2b, New American Standard Bible His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.

^ Pls see above.

Revelation 1:8, 17-18 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. ... [17] When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
^Vs 8 is what Jehovah God says. 1Pet.3:18 says how J'esus was put to death but made alive in the spirit'. So we know that verse 17,18 refer to him, not Jehovah God becuz Jehovah never died. He can't die. Also Jesus holds those keys mentioned.

Revelation 22:12-13, 16 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.... [16] I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

^Alpha & Omega refer to Jehovah God. At Rev.22:12, TEV Bible inserts the name Jesus, so the ref to Alpha & Omega in vs 13 is MADE TO APPEAR to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, & other translations do not include it.

Matthew 1:23 The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuelwhich means, God with us.

^ Yes, Jesus being so close to God & representing Him makes him, in a sense "with us".

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
^ But he is NOT the ALMIGHTY God. That title is reserved for Jehovah God.

John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe. Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!
^Have YOU ever said in excitement, "OH MY GOD!!"
Here is a classic figure of speech!
Psalms 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

^"God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever..."
These are traits of the anointed king, Christ.

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

^Pls see above.

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
^Classic verses used by those who feel God is Christ/Christ is God.
Pls see OTHER translations which rightfully read that the Word was "a god" or "a god was the word". Also read vs 18 where it says that "No man has ever seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."
Obviously people had seen Jesus so he could not have been Jehovah God. Contextual reading is a huge plus in ALL factions.
Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

^ Again, all caps indicating Jehovah God, the Almighty. No other god is to be worshipped, including Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all Gods angels worship him.

^Let all God's angels do obeisance to him, not worship. It's more - RESPECT & HONOR - but NOT worship. All other Scriptures indicate that worship is reserved for Jehovah God.

Perhaps I will have more time later or even another day for I have a Bible Study to attend...:yes:

(DTrents comments are in blue. I hope this came out clearly on the board.)

wmam · Jun 16, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
Okay, pay attention for just one minute:

"My own word," as you call it, is a synonym for "your" word, the word you believe -- for reasons I can't begin to imagine -- was used in the original text. Lord and Master are both appropriate here. Neither one refers only to God.

If you don't understand by now, you probably never will. I agree that your logic hasn't failed. What logic?

Baali?

Theres another.

Midnightblue..........I for one do understand what you have been trying so hard to explain. Shame that those out there do not get enough debate on the "Debate" threads that they have to use the "Discussion" threads also.

I am a firm believer that the english translation is faulty at best and misleading to so many. For the unlearned, one could read in the english context that the Most High is an alien and floats around in a spaceship. I'll stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic context for understanding when deciphering the words that where written by Hebrews, for Hebrews and about Hebrews.

Mystic-als · Jun 19, 2006

DTrent - "John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
^Have YOU ever said in excitement, "OH MY GOD!!"
Here is a classic figure of speech! "

I have said that phrase. But to think that that is the context with which Thomas used it is laughable.

On the whole though your post makes for interesting reading. But like wmam said - "stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic context for understanding".

A simple Strongs concordance will go a long way to understanding the word and it's different meanings.

I hope you didn't just copy and paste here. I really hope you read through it and have thought about what is said in the post.

To make things clear. You are saying that Jesus was not God. But merely his son (like you and me).

DTrent · Jun 21, 2006

Mystic-als said:
DTrent - "John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe. Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!
^Have YOU ever said in excitement, "OH MY GOD!!"
Here is a classic figure of speech! "

I have said that phrase. But to think that that is the context with which Thomas used it is laughable.

On the whole though your post makes for interesting reading. But like wmam said - "stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic context for understanding".

A simple Strongs concordance will go a long way to understanding the word and it's different meanings.

I hope you didn't just copy and paste here. I really hope you read through it and have thought about what is said in the post.

To make things clear. You are saying that Jesus was not God. But merely his son (like you and me).

Sorry that you think the figures of speech in the Bible are "laughable". One has to admit that they DO make the belief true though just like in the other Bible verses that are figures of speech.

No, I did not simply copy & paste. I read thru your posts & have thought about what was said.

Yes, your conclusion about making things clear is correct. I am saying that Jesus was not God.
Thanx for listening...

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 21, 2006

DTrent said:
Actually, the evidence is overwhelming that Christ is THE SON OF GOD.

Present it.

Elvendon · Jun 21, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
Present it.

I believe, therefore he is...

:run:

Seriously, what alternative version of Christian soteriology (that does not involve Jesus as God suffering on the cross as either a sacrifice or a theosifying device for humanity) do you present that makes more sense? You can't just remove a vital aspect of the Kerygma and expect the entire house of Christianity to remain standing.

I'm happy to consider any alternatives you present, so go right ahead.

Jayhawker Soule · Jun 21, 2006

Elvendon said:
Seriously, what alternative version of Christian soteriology ... do you present that makes more sense?

The question is worthless and nonresponsive. Most good fiction "makes sense". Indeed, on some level, most enduring myths "make sense" at some level, but none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the claim that "the evidence is overwhelming that Christ is THE SON OF GOD" and my request that this 'overwhelming evidence' be presented.

Quiddity · Jun 21, 2006

Elvendon, Jay is right. The word evidence is used far too much in the religious community and if one wants to be honest about our position, then we should present it as is. How else are we to keep dialogue intellectually honest. Besides, Jay is allowed to ask questions in this forum. Asking him questions must be taken outside of this forum section.

~Victor

Super Universe · Jun 21, 2006

Why would Jesus not simply say "I am God, the Creator of the universe"?

Is the Son of God not enough?

Quiddity · Jun 21, 2006

Super Universe said:
Why would Jesus not simply say "I am God, the Creator of the universe"?

Is the Son of God not enough?

How would that change things in your mind?

Super Universe · Jun 22, 2006

Victor said:
How would that change things in your mind?

It would change the following things in my mind:
-God connects to each sentient person through the soul. He experiences everything that you experience through the five senses. Jesus is not directly in this loop.

-Jesus is a created Son of God sent out to this area of the universe to ensure the universe follows God's plan.

-Jesus chose the earth for His final bestowal before assuming the leadership of this area of the universe because as a created Son of God who governs sentient beings He must know what their life experience is like.

-With help, Jesus oversees the adjudication of each sentient personality. If your soul has not already fused with your personality this is your last chance. Universal beings can force the fusion to take place if you have earned it but for some reason it did not naturally take place.

-If Jesus was God then I would think the universe was a much smaller place.

I have absolutely no doubt that God exists and that Jesus is His Son.

Quiddity · Jun 22, 2006

Super Universe said:
It would change the following things in my mind:
-God connects to each sentient person through the soul. He experiences everything that you experience through the five senses. Jesus is not directly in this loop.

Christianity would disagree with you on this.

Super Universe said:
-Jesus is a created Son of God sent out to this area of the universe to ensure the universe follows God's plan.

Christianity would again disagree with you on this. Jesus Christ is begotten, not created. I'll leave it to you to research the difference.

Super Universe said:
-Jesus chose the earth for His final bestowal before assuming the leadership of this area of the universe because as a created Son of God who governs sentient beings He must know what their life experience is like.

My previous comments should cover this.

Super Universe said:
-With help, Jesus oversees the adjudication of each sentient personality. If your soul has not already fused with your personality this is your last chance. Universal beings can force the fusion to take place if you have earned it but for some reason it did not naturally take place.

This went over my head.

Super Universe said:
-If Jesus was God then I would think the universe was a much smaller place.

Huh?

sandy whitelinger · Jun 22, 2006

Mystic-als said:
On the whole though your post makes for interesting reading. But like wmam said - "stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic context for understanding".

A simple Strongs concordance will go a long way to understanding the word and it's different meanings.

Here is my thought in a nutshell. i don't speak or claim to understand Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Neither do I believe that those here who claim to have some understanding of original languages have a greater understanding of original languages or theology to be able to translate better than those who translated it in the first place.

It has been my observation that those who presently try to use original languages distort (either purposely or unwittingly) the plain English understanding.

Super Universe · Jun 22, 2006

Victor said:
Christianity would disagree with you on this.

Christianity would again disagree with you on this. Jesus Christ is begotten, not created. I'll leave it to you to research the difference.

My previous comments should cover this.

This went over my head.

Huh?

Christianity would disagree with me on this? Who's Christianity? Old time fire and brimstone religion? You're right, I'm sure they wouldn't even consider me a Christian.

Jesus is doing the job He was created for.

Christ is begotten? Okay dictionary.com says begot means:
1 : to procreate as the father : SIRE
2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

To procreate or produce is not to create? Aren't we really splitting hairs here?

Okay, there is a judgement day but it's not a set date on any calendar. Judgement day is for individuals not all of humanity at one time. After death your personality travels to a higher level where you are greeted and led to your judgement. I doubt Jesus conducts this personally. By the way, this is temporarily (for 3,000 years) suspended until after Lucifer's case is resolved.

If you deserve salvation your soul should have already fused with your human personality and you can continue on the higher path toward heaven. It's a long road, there is much to learn about the universe and just because your soul has fused does not mean that heaven is assured. Beings do take steps backwards and there is the ultimate penalty of annihilation (not eternal hell, but annihilation from energy that's best described as fire) given to those who go against God and deny diety.

Like any complex thing sometimes souls do not fuse with personalities that have earned it. If at your adjudication this is discovered a claim will be submitted to higher beings (Ancients of Days) that can force the fusion to take place.

I do not believe that God visits each planet with sentient beings. There are trillions of planets out there. Trillions.

I believe Jesus when He said that He is the Son of God.

Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

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