Fred Phelps - Christian or not?

jamaesi said:

I don't see anything Christ-like in his actions. I don't see Christ's teachings in his actions. Can anyone imagine Jesus protesting funerals or saying gays deserve it or beating children or saying for people to beat their wives?

I do see a violent, troubled man who needs a large dose of therapy and to learn a little about his Saviour's teachings of nonviolence and peace and love.

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Do note that Phelps is no longer violent. No, I can't picture Jesus acting like Fred Phelps, but I can't picture Jesus acting like Billy Graham or Pope Benedict XVI, either -- not that either of them is the type of person Phelps is.

Phelps has obvious emotional problems. Does that make him a non-Christian?

Phelps is confrontational. Does that make him a non-Christian?

He says that people who act contrary to God's will go to hell, and he names some of those people by name. Would we say that Dante was not a Christian because he pictured Muhammad and Ali in hell? That C.S. Lewis was not a Christian because he pictured Napoleon in hell?

Phelps hurts people's feelings and offends people. Is everyone who does those things excluded from Christianity?

I maintain that Phelps is a Christian. I have yet to hear any objective reason for believing otherwise.

Do note that Phelps is no longer violent. No, I can't picture Jesus acting like Fred Phelps, but I can't picture Jesus acting like Billy Graham or Pope Benedict XVI, either -- not that either of them is the type of person Phelps is.

Phelps have obvious emotional problems. Does that make him a non-Christian?

Phelps is confrontational. Does that make him a non-Christian?

He says that people who act contrary to God's will go to hell, and he names some of those people by name. Would we say that Dante was not a Christian because he pictured Muhammad and Ali in hell? That C.S. Lewis was not a Christian because he pictured Napoleon in hell?

Phelps hurts people's feelings and offends people. Is everyone who does those things excluded from Christianity?

I maintain that Phelps is a Christian. I have yet to hear any objective reason for believing otherwise.

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I'm not saying it excludes them from Christianity, but Christianity teaches nonviolence, not to judge others, and to love thy neighbour- they aren't doing that, they aren't very good models of Christianity.

If someone told me that they just loved animals and was a vegetarian while they munched on a steak from a factory-farmed cow, I wouldn't believe them for a second.

If someone calls me a ****** while saying I am going to Hell and then profess their love for G-d and how they are such a good Christian, I wouldn't believe them for a second.

If someone could write down the requirements of being a Christian, that would probably help this thread out quite a bit.

jamaesi said:

I'm not saying it excludes them from Christianity, but Christianity teaches nonviolence, not to judge others, and to love thy neighbour- they aren't doing that, they aren't very good models of Christianity.

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Jesus teaches those things. Christianity, in general, does not.

It shouldn't matter, but I do get tired of this particular religious dodge. The standard response whenever anyone does anything repugnant in the name of Christianity or Islam is to say, "Oh, he's not a real Christian," or "He's not a real Muslim." And yet in almost every case they are. And in many cases -- as in the case of Phelps -- what they're doing and saying isn't really that different from what more socially acceptable members of their religions do and say.

During the Peasants' War, Martin Luther said, "Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful or devilish than a rebel." Was Martin Luther a non-Christian?

Bernard of Clairvaux, who is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church, was one of the main advocates of the Second Crusade. Was Bernard a non-Christian?

Pope Innocent III directed persecutions and slaughters of Manichees and Albigensians, decreed the Fourth Crusade, and presided over the Fourth Lateran Council (one of the Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Catholic Church), which decreed the Fifth Crusade. In 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorized the use of torture in the interrogation of suspected heretics. Were those Popes non-Christians?

Puritan clergy instigated and helped direct the Salem Witchcraft Trials, in which nineteen people were hanged, one was pressed to death, and others died in prison. Lydia Dustin was found not guilty but was kept in prison anyway, and died there. The infant daughter of Sarah Good, who was still nursing, was imprisoned with her mother and died there. Sarah Good's four-year-old daughter Dorcas was also imprisoned; according to her father, she "was in prison 7 or 8 months and being chain'd in the dungeon was so hardly used and terrifyed that she hath ever since been very chargeable haveing little or no reason to govern herself." Were the Puritan clergy non-Christians?

Is every person who has killed another person in wartime a non-Christian?

[SIZE=+0]It is in our lives not our words that religion must be read says Jefferson. His words of wisdom is starting point in talking about Phelps, his Westboro Baptist Church and other traditions that justify bigotry in the name of the sacred and religion. Phelps and his loyal followers can claim a Christian label all they want but then again their actions speak louder than words so making their teachings and the faith they claim to represent (Christianity) bankrupt. Their theology, as mentioned early is a hyper calvinism meaning that only their church, and only their church is saved with everyone else dammed. Not only is he turning a beautiful religion into something hideous, he is projecting his own wrathful attitude on the nature of God. If we are to look at the heart of Christianity we find in Hebrew Scripture (Micah 6:8-NRSV): "He has told you, O Mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God" A Christian in my mind is a person is moved by the wisdom of the Rabbi Jesus, No matter what you think of Jesus or interpretation Phelps I think can learn alot from this word of wisdom: "At all times let a man be as supple as a reed and not rigid as a cedar". If he is consistently unwilling to open himself up he will remain bitter and take his rage on anyone he deems is unworthy of his love but in the time, hopefully he will be willing to open up, to love himself as he does others and to live life to its fullest for a more peaceful, equitable and just world. The world is already hurting so "all we need is love" Namaste.[/SIZE]

uu_sage said:

[SIZE=-0]A Christian in my mind is a person is moved by the wisdom of the Rabbi Jesus, a Jewish mystic, a social and political revolutionary meaning to bring wholeness and happiness to the human family by creating "The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth", a society of equals.[/SIZE]

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You're entitled to that fantasy if it pleases you, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with what Christianity is like in real life. What's the point of exalting "Christianity" by defining it in such a way as to exclude the vast majority of Christians?

MidnightBlue said:

I maintain that Phelps is a Christian. I have yet to hear any objective reason for believing otherwise.

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There is no way whatsoever that we can objectively say that somone is not a Christian in the sense that that person will go to heaven. Thankfully, there is no way to demonstrate that Phelps is consistent with contemporary or historical church teachings or behavior (unless of course we include the Crusades and the Inquisition periods, with whom I would love to categorize Phelps).

Sure, he's within the Christian tradition that killed in the name of Christ in the Holy Land, conducted the Salem witch trials, and murdered thousands of innocents in the Inquisition. That's not the best of Christianity.

1 John 2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Personally, I would not welcome Phelps or his church members as fellow Christians or allow them Communion at my church - no more than I would welcome Hitler or the KKK.

Fred Phelps? Christian? More like wolf in sheeps clothing.

His teachins no, but if He believes inJeuss Christ as his Lord and Saviour, yes.

I think his actions and teachings are VERY unChristian.

I think Phelps is a Christian, just as bin Laden is a Muslim. Both are just bad apples, and don't represent the entire Christianity and Islam.

I think that what MidnightBlue is trying to say. There are good Christian and there are bad Christian, but that doesn't make him any less a Christian. Bin Laden is a bad Muslim, but does that make him a lesser Muslim? I would say no. Does bin Laden represent a majority of people in Islam? No, but it still doesn't him, not a Muslim.

I have problem when Christians or Muslims deny a person to be a true Christian or true Muslim. What is a true Christian? What is a true Muslim?

There are also good and bad atheists, but does a bad atheist doesn't represent entire community of atheism? Again, I'd say no.

Well, he doesn't strike me as acting particularly Christian, but I'm pretty sure he'd say I'm not a Christian either. I guess it's all in how you want to define the word "Christian."

It can go one of two ways really. If works, attitude, action and interpretation are important to one's "Christianness", then no he isn't. But if one can profess belief in Jesus and all that and go on the idea that it doesn't matter how good or bad a person you are as long as you accept Christ, then yes he is very much a Christian.

I think a lot of people want to have it both ways.

Katzpur said:

Well, he doesn't strike me as acting particularly Christian, but I'm pretty sure he'd say I'm not a Christian either.

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Granted. I would also agree with you that he doesn't act Christian-like, but when did modern Christian become Christian-like?

Do think those Christians who don't go to Sunday masses are not Christians? I am just wondering when does Christian end and when un-Christian begin? Those is no marker, unless that person declare "I am no longer a Christian". Until then, you got to accept him as bad apple, and people will have to deal with him being a bad Christian.

If you have basketful of apples and found one bad apple, does that make "it not an apple?" Do a bad apple become a different fruit? No.

Personally, I'd throw away bad apples.

This man is not a Christian and only uses Christianity as an excuse for his behavior. Just as the muslim terrorists are using their religion as an excuse for their behavior.

If Fred Phelps were a follower of Christ, then he would take note of the following verse and know that hate as no place in Christianity.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:36-40

gnostic said:

If you have basketful of apples and found one bad apple, does that make "it not an apple?" Do a bad apple become a different fruit? No.

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Speaking of fruits:

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."
Matthew 7:15-16

That's how we can tell a christian from a non-christian....by their fruits. Using Matthew 22:36-40 as the standard, there are many who label themselves falsely as "Christians".

I have been called a "false prophet" at one time by someone at islam.com forum, and a couple of other times at free2code forum, though I don't remember why now. Prophet have a lot to do with prophecy, particularly "divinely inspired" prophecy.

I'd claim no such status - false or otherwise. I may well be insane, but I don't claim to hear voices from God, Satan or from other spirits. I don't even claim to be a Christian.

Do Christians often falsely accuse people of being something they are not?

Melody said:

This man is not a Christian and only uses Christianity as an excuse for his behavior. Just as the muslim terrorists are using their religion as an excuse for their behavior.

If Fred Phelps were a follower of Christ, then he would take note of the following verse and know that hate as no place in Christianity.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:36-40

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You're equating being a Christian with being a follower of Christ. I think the equation is faulty, and that's one of the reasons I rejected Christianity. It's a rare Christian indeed who follows the teachings of Christ, and a rare church that teaches him to.

Melody said:

Speaking of fruits:

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."
Matthew 7:15-16

That's how we can tell a christian from a non-christian....by their fruits. Using Matthew 22:36-40 as the standard, there are many who label themselves falsely as "Christians".

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Would you say, then, that a good and loving person is a Christian, and a bad and hateful person is a non-Christian -- even if the former is a pagan priestess, and the latter is a Sunday School teacher?

I would have to say that Phelps does not represent the majority of Christianity.

However, the issue of whether or not he is a Christian ultimately comes down to your definition of Christian. Is one a Christian through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personaly savior? Or is it the works of their life that makes them a Christian? Or how about both?

A lot of Christians would have you believe that all you need to do is accept Jesus as your saviour and then you are a Christian. If this is the case, then Hitler is in heaven and Fred Phelps will be. Bush will go there as well and so will Pat Robertson. Buddha unfortunately is roasting in Hell as well as Ghandi.

If you are a Christian through your works, then that becomes more reasonable. But then you risk saying that atheists are truer Christians than some people who go to church every Sunday and we just can't have that! Buddhists would be Christians while a lot of those guys out fighting wars would probably fall in the un-Christian classification, even if they are wearing a cross around their neck and praying to God to help them place that one square shot on the enemies head.

MidnightBlue said:

You're equating being a Christian with being a follower of Christ. I think the equation is faulty, and that's one of the reasons I rejected Christianity. It's a rare Christian indeed who follows the teachings of Christ, and a rare church that teaches him to.

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Yes I am so the logic not faulty. It seems to be the fashion for everyone to try and figure out whether they are Christian *too*. If you follow any other than Christ, then you can call yourself anything you want, but it don't make it so. And if you're a follower of Christ, whether or not you believe in His divinity, the two greatest commandments still apply.

I won't even get into what churches teach because I've made my feelings pretty clear on how unscriptural I think modern churches are. As for it being rare for Christians to follow the teachings of Christ, I disagree. There are many who try to live by Christ's teachings but you won't hear about them because it doesn't sell newspapers or tv ad sponsorship.

MidnightBlue said:

Would you say, then, that a good and loving person is a Christian, and a bad and hateful person is a non-Christian -- even if the former is a pagan priestess, and the latter is a Sunday School teacher?

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Christianity is a belief not a thermometer for behavior.