How an all-loving all-just God sending people to hell is logically absurd

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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I'm convinced.

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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you end up alongside others that think and feel as you do

how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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George-ananda said:

I'm convinced.

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Me too.

Katzpur said:

Me too.

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I'll third that.


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It doesn't say God is "ALL loving" , but to everything there is a season, a time and place for everything. I think we all get that or it would be a weird world, worse than a Hillary world would have been.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us.

God loved us while we were yet sinners, and sent his Son so that we might be saved. All who believe in him will not perish but have eternal life.

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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I honestly dont see the purpose of people going to hell. Usually people are punished for ill actions. Most religions even other god-ones look at misdeeds=punishment. Even the Catholic Church, according to the CCC believes people who dont believe go to purgatory not hell.

Only mainstream and JW seem to think those who dont believe will go to hell.

But what Id like to know what is the logic in that. If I never knew my mother's love how and why would I be punished to chose to not seek it? If I knew my mother's love, would that be love if she didnt let and want her children to "fly on their own" without the fine print: if you dont love me still, your deeds mean nothing.

I dont figure it out anymore at least not in person. On RF no one has given me an answer of how disbelief means punishment.

I guess thats something that would be on my bucket list of unsolvable questions.

Carlita said:

I honestly dont see the purpose of people going to hell. Usually people are punished for ill actions. Most religions even other god-ones look at misdeeds=punishment. Even the Catholic Church, according to the CCC believes people who dont believe go to purgatory not hell.

Only mainstream and JW seem to think those who dont believe will go to hell.

But what Id like to know what is the logic in that. If I never knew my mother's love how and why would I be punished to chose to not seek it? If I knew my mother's love, would that be love if she didnt let and want her children to "fly on their own" without the fine print: if you dont love me still, your deeds mean nothing.

I dont figure it out anymore at least not in person. On RF no one has given me an answer of how disbelief means punishment.

I guess thats something that would be on my bucket list of unsolvable questions.

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If you're mama was standing over the pit of hell holding you in her arms, and you jumped out of your mamas arms trying to fly on your own, where would you go?

Honestly, a lot of notions we created are absurd. No wonder hell is one of them.

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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Punishment is that there isnt a heaven for one self which is why its called hell.

If people were all love why not love God? Psalm 10:4 In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

"Don't even the hypocrites love those who love them back" So ask yourself how far does your love go. Perhaps it falls a little short and you need a savior to cover what your pride wont let you.

Kemosloby said:

If people were all love why not love God? Psalm 10:4 In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

"Don't even the hypocrites love those who love them back" So ask yourself how far does your love go. Perhaps it falls a little short and you need a savior to cover what your pride wont let you.

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I think you mentioned different types of love here. Love to God, love of a hypocrite those are different types of love.

Ana.J said:

I think you mentioned different types of love here. Love to God, love of a hypocrite those are different types of love.

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not if one is replacing the other.

Ana.J said:

I think you mentioned different types of love here. Love to God, love of a hypocrite those are different types of love.

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My point is our love is not as vast as Gods, therefore we need a savior to measure up.

I'll argue against just for...conversation's sake.

I don't know about that. I personally think death ends our experience of suffering, but there's no guarantee that we don't enter into a terribly painful state after death. Why shouldn't we live in extreme pain? I've met plenty of people living in extreme pain.

When I was a child I thought the tiniest little pain was worth crying over, but as I got older and pains became more common I stopped noticing them as much. I used to hate vegetables, but as I got older I started to like them. The vegetables didn't change, but I changed. Who is to say that pain can't become something we appreciate after 1,000 or 10,000 years? Maybe God is always in pain. Maybe pain is reality and truth.

Brickjectivity said:

I'll argue against just for...conversation's sake.

I don't know about that. I personally think death ends our experience of suffering, but there's no guarantee that we don't enter into a terribly painful state after death. Why shouldn't we live in extreme pain? I've met plenty of people living in extreme pain.

When I was a child I thought the tiniest little pain was worth crying over, but as I got older and pains became more common I stopped noticing them as much. I used to hate vegetables, but as I got older I started to like them. The vegetables didn't change, but I changed. Who is to say that pain can't become something we appreciate after 1,000 or 10,000 years? Maybe God is always in pain. Maybe pain is reality and truth.

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Good idea. ... Give me life, give me pain, give me my self again.

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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Why would he punish them anyway? God loves all his creatures, do you think he'd punish the Lion because he was hungry, or the Man because he Killed, all lessons learnt there is no punishment worse than death, but death is the door to eternal life, spiritual logic, and it says in the Bible 'God will one day forgive everyone!' No need whatever to get paranoid. There's a well known song in France, 'We all go to heaven'.

The way I see it, we are creating the face of God, each person's destiny is like one pixel in the image of God and there may be a thousand billion pixels needed to realise and understand this image. However, once we get there, to that point, then the whole face becomes a light with the fire of the Holy Spirit. One heart, one love, many levels. The Emin says, God means simply 'Grow or Die', but the way I see it, each person or pixel is immortal and necessary to the final image. And it's all predestined so we'll all get there in the end, it's just a question of time. Those who have a destiny to do the higher work are in the end equals with everyone else. It's such a good plan, it should work!
Someone once published an estimation of how many people have lived on earth so far, but I've forgotten the estimated total.
By my calculations we are nearly there, our work is almost done, so as it says in the Bible Continue as you are!
sunray

Paraphrasing a story from Paramahansa Yogananda, there was an old man who was bemoaning his son's wicked ways. The saint told the old man that he should round up the son's friends. They should tie him up and toss him into a furnace. The old man was horrified and said he could not do that to his own son. The saint then said if the old man who himself has human failings and loves his son so much that he could not do that, how much less would a loving God toss one of his children into an eternal fire?

MattMVS7 said:

If God were all-just, but had no love, then He would condemn the wicked to eternal hell and give the righteous eternal heaven. If God were all-loving, but had no just, then He would give eternal heaven to both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, a God who is both all-loving and all-just would not condemn the wicked to eternal hell, but would give them some sort of lesser punishment.

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If the just and fitting punishment for a sinner is eternal Hell, it is therefore unjust to give a lesser punishment. This dilemma of justice and mercy was resolved and perfectly shown in the person of Jesus, who fulfilled justice by taking the punishment we deserve, saving us from the wrath of God and giving us eternal life with Him, if only we trust in Him as Lord.

Sultan Of Swing said:

If the just and fitting punishment for a sinner is eternal Hell, it is therefore unjust to give a lesser punishment. This dilemma of justice and mercy was resolved and perfectly shown in the person of Jesus, who fulfilled justice by taking the punishment we deserve, saving us from the wrath of God and giving us eternal life with Him, if only we trust in Him as Lord.

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Yes, God gave His love for us by having his Son sacrificed. But why should His love stop there? Therefore, I think my logical argument still applies since He would still be both an all loving and all just God. Sacrificing His Son would not take away His all loving characteristic and make Him nothing more than simply an all just God.

As for the two characteristics of all just and all loving, they go against each other. The all loving characteristic would tone down the all just characteristic so that wicked people would not be condemned to an eternal hell. But the all just characteristic takes away from the all loving characteristic so that wicked people would be deserving of eternal hell.