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Why the Electoral College anyway?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The limited number of messy scenarios is tempered by the fact that most states have two strong parties also.

Three mainstream parties and one 'out-there' party highly raises the 'out-there' parties chance of winning.
How so? By what mechanism does electing Governors and Senators by state-wide popular vote raise an "out-there" party's chance of winning?

I think Georgia ended up with a white supremacist Governor in this way many decades back.
Well, we ended up with a white supremacist President in 2016 by the electoral method of electing the President. That's worse, right?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, there are not, but effectively they control their states entire allocation of electoral votes.
So you understand that the electoral method of electing the President is senseless. I'm glad to hear it--I thought you were trying to defend the electoral method. It does cause terrible problems--as noted, voter apathy (due to people knowing beforehand to which candidate their state's electoral votes will be cast), vote wasting, and the less popular candidate winning the office.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
How so? By what mechanism does electing Governors and Senators by state-wide popular vote raise an "out-there" party's chance of winning?
If there are three mainstream parties that are fairly close and one weirdo party it could split"

Main-1 25%
Main-2 25%
Main-3 24.9%
Weirdo 25.1%

74.9% of the people could hate the weirdo party but they would win.
Well, we ended up with a white supremacist President in 2016 by the electoral method of electing the President. That's worse, right?
Calling Trump a white supremacist is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. (p.s. and I voted Hillary)

How is he even anti-black?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
New Right wingers tell me the college is important to prevent tyranny of the majority and candidates focusing on a few states.
It's pretty obvious the EC keeps candidates focusing on a few states. Here, we don't usually have too many presidential campaign adds because it's pretty much a given Indiana will go Red. When it went Blue eight years ago, it was a total shock, and an investment that paid off for Obama as he campaigned here like no other presidential candidate I've seen.
The Dems really need to find another savvy, charming, and charismatic speaker again. And find them for as many positions as possible. :p I still think his "don't boo, vote!" was an absolutely brilliant move on his part. I don't doubt without his speaking skills, he wouldn't have had the huge victory the first time or a second term.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
How is he even anti-black?
He's been sued over discrimination in employment at least twice, as well as switching out black dealers in his casinos with white dealers depending on clientele. His practices are disgusting, and that's just what's documented and on paper.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How so? By what mechanism does electing Governors and Senators by state-wide popular vote raise an "out-there" party's chance of winning?

Well, we ended up with a white supremacist President in 2016 by the electoral method of electing the President. That's worse, right?

If there are three mainstream parties that are fairly close and one weirdo party it could split"

Main-1 25%
Main-2 25%
Main-3 24.9%
Weirdo 25.1%

74.9% of the people could hate the weirdo party but they would win.

Calling Trump a white supremacist is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. (p.s. and I voted Hillary)

How is he even anti-black?

It's the black vote that put him over the top, and I've never seen him actually utter a single word about anyone's race.

African-American, at least in it's present form isn't a race - few people are unmixed.

Muslim is not a race, it's a religion and culture.

Mexican is not a race, it's a nationality.

Hispanic/Latino isn't a race either, it is a combination of them as well.

One party wants the race hate, and one realizes that these racial divisions are wastes of time -- we're just Americans. That party is playing us against one another, and some people were fed up with. (Mostly black folks, btw, making the change.)

Choose your side well, because history doesn't favor the dividers.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I'm positive that if Trump won by majority rule, then the libs would be talking about going back to the Electoral College. Without the EC, there is fear that one candidate won't win a clear majority of the vote and then fraud could come into play like this election. I'd say Clinton won the popular vote by fraud.

Another reason is the populous states would have their candidates selected most of the time since they would know their candidates better than a candidate from the less populous states. No system is perfect.

And I could give squat that close to half the country didn't vote. What I care more about are the polls that were wrong and to fix that. We can take samples and get a good statistical read out on how the election would go. The polls are biased, but it tends to even out. Of course, there will be the outliers like when Truman Won and this past election when Trump won.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
It's pretty obvious the EC keeps candidates focusing on a few states. Here, we don't usually have too many presidential campaign adds because it's pretty much a given Indiana will go Red.
Thats the thing, they will focus on the states they think they can win. If a candidate thought they could swing California or Texas they would, just like if Florida was a landslide for one side every year for one side, then it wouldn't be the close state election after election. It isn't shocking for Florida to lose/win for a candidate by one percent or less. It is strange though, Hillary lost a ton of counties there by a lot, she literally got the popular vote from the populace areas.

Changing the electoral college so that one vote counts more evenly wouldn't change that. Places like California and New York would count for more electoral points making the spread more even when the popular vote is more even. I do wonder though, Trump had more states but got less popular vote so does that make the electoral college more fair to make higher populace states less effective than less populace states?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I'm positive that if Trump won by majority rule, then the libs would be talking about going back to the Electoral College.
I'm positive that if it were the other way around that if Trump won majority and not the electoral I would still question a system where majority voice doesn't matter.
I'd say Clinton won the popular vote by fraud.
Of course you would.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Hillary lost a ton of counties there by a lot, she literally got the popular vote from the populace areas.
Generally speaking, rural areas are more Conservative while bigger cities are more Liberal. Florida, Indiana, Texas, Washington...rural areas are good for Republicans while metropolises are good for Democrats.
does that make the electoral college more fair to make higher populace states less effective than less populace states?
No. The people in those states should not have their vote counted anymore or less than those in any other state. And it should actually count. Me, out of the four presidential elections I've voted in now, my vote literally only counted during one of those elections. It helped to give Hillary the popular vote this year, but Indiana and Kentucky where the first states called, called for Trump, and, once again, my vote is worthless.
And their state's vote counts more anyways. It's not "one state, one vote," it depends on population, which isn't arbitrary at least, but you might as well make a list of different features and pick one at random to decide the electoral votes.
If you're going to have a Democracy, it needs to be "one citizen, one vote." What we have is just moronic and it defeats the purpose of really letting anyone technically vote anyways. Technically, not a single one of us has ever cast a vote for president. Never.
 
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james bond

Well-Known Member
I'm positive that if it were the other way around that if Trump won majority and not the electoral I would still question a system where majority voice doesn't matter.

Of course you would.

>>I'm positive that if it were the other way around that if Trump won majority and not the electoral I would still question a system where majority voice doesn't matter.<<

I'm positive you would not give me props even if the TRUTH hit you in the face, but that's par for the course in politics and religion.

14947568_1210269139012580_3771659126421417319_n.jpg


http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-the-united-states-lives-in-these-counties-2013-9

In Cali, my vote didn't matter for POTUS (except to give me criping rights). As soon as the polls closed, the 55 electoral votes went to Clinton according to CNN ha ha. A friend of mine, who is anti-Trump, voted for Sanders (write-in) in Missouri and Trump won in no time.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I mean we did just elect a raving lunatic? So they didn't do their job. In fact they went out of their way to give it to the lunatic who lost the popular vote.

They will never vote against the majority of the state. It is a scheme currently used to crush 3rd party candidates and simply campaigning routes. In a popular vote they can't win with just a few states. They have to appeal to the MAJORITY of all Americans. Now they just appeal to Florida, NC and Ohio. Your vote counts the same no matter where you live. Currently this is objectively false. It also cuts away millions of American Citizens in Puerto Rico who are full fledged American Citizens who vote in the primary elections but not in the General election for president.

There is no defensible argument for the EC except its simply the way we have always done it. They will not go against the popular state vote. They will polarize the parties and force a two party system (only one of many mechanisms that do this) and force focus on a select few swing states.

Personally I think we need to work on giving citizenship to all of our denizens of US territories and then take a direct election with popular vote with all of our citizens.


Your personal animosity toward an individual candidate is duly noted and promptly forgiven. Deal with it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I mean we did just elect a raving lunatic? So they didn't do their job. In fact they went out of their way to give it to the lunatic who lost the popular vote.
No one gave Trump the election. In fact, great powers in the media & in both parties were arrayed against him.

What I saw was a brilliant (albeit boorish & flawed) campaign to use the media who opposed him to get free coverage, & to also circumvent them to conduct a more grass roots campaign using non-traditional means, eg, Twitter, personal commentary, his own money. He also gets credit for campaigning in a far more strategic manner, ie, he sought votes where it would maximize electoral college votes. Consider that even though she won the popular vote (barely), he had a 290 to 228 landslide where it counted.
The Dems were less sophisticated in their approach, perhaps because they had a false sense of certainty she would win, & because they placed too much faith in their well oiled but conventional campaign machinery.

Trump is a vile hothead, but he is incredibly driven, & smarter than his competition.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
No one gave Trump the election. In fact, great powers in the media & in both parties were arrayed against him.

What I saw was a brilliant (albeit boorish & flawed) campaign to use the media who opposed him to get free coverage, & to also circumvent them to conduct a more grass roots campaign using non-traditional means, eg, Twitter, personal commentary, his own money. He also gets credit for campaigning in a far more strategic manner, ie, he sought votes where it would maximize electoral college votes. Consider that even though she won the popular vote (barely), he had a 290 to 228 landslide where it counted.
The Dems were less sophisticated in their approach, perhaps because they had a false sense of certainty she would win, & because they placed too much faith in their well oiled but conventional campaign machinery.

Trump is a vile hothead, but he is incredibly driven, & smarter than his competition.
What I meant was misrepresentation of the public opinion by the EC. I agree that much about Trump.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Your personal animosity toward an individual candidate is duly noted and promptly forgiven. Deal with it.
An individual? No it is against pretty much all the candidates and the system itself. I would ***** the same if Hillary had been elected. This was pretty much unavoidable *****ing on my part.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
He's been sued over discrimination in employment at least twice, as well as switching out black dealers in his casinos with white dealers depending on clientele. His practices are disgusting, and that's just what's documented and on paper.
He's a politically incorrect business opportunist for sure. I can see him matching the race of the dealer with the clientele for business reasons especially favoring attractive white females as dealers. But that is different to the white supremacist claim I was challenging.

(remember I was a Hillary voter)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What I meant was misrepresentation of the public opinion by the EC. I agree that much about Trump.
Misrepresentation?
No.
The popular vote is not the determining metric for electing the president.
I don't say it's the best system, but it has its merit. And any candidate
who ignores the system does so at her own peril. But I note that in the
primaries, she gamed the system with great skill against her foes.
 
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