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Is climate change consistent with Abrahamic beliefs?

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but the fact is that most of the CO2 and methane gas buildup is due to human activities, and it has been known for over 200 years now that both of these have heat retention effects. To not feel that this is rational I would suggest is terribly misplaced. It's not a question of what to do but whether there can be enough international support to do it instead of denying reality or just wringing our hands and sitting on out thumbs.
My question was not regarding whether or not Man has caused "heat retention effects." I was not suggesting that global warming or whatever you want to call it is "rational."
I was suggesting - stating - that what you and others appear to be positing is that Man can "fix" the "heat retention effects;" - Reverse global warming.
The "global warming" community appears to believe that THEY can, in fact, Change the freaking weather. They can cause Climate Change to Reverse global warming.
I find that idea illogical. Cute. Endearing. Very human. But totally irrational.
You would need to get 7 plus billion people on planet Earth to radically change their way of life in order to simply stop causing your "heat retention effects" and, after that, according to almost all sincere scientists who believe that global warming is a problem, it would have little or NO Effect on actually "reversing" global warming.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
As largely irrelevant.
G-d requires that we fight Evil; establish Justice; and battle our own faults and failings.
I see "Noah" brought up as something to do with "climate change."
The story of Noah is about a conflict between Evil and Good. As are many of the portions of the Torah...

"Climate Change" is more in line with pagan traditions. King Canute's response to his failed attempt to command the Tide from coming in was:
"Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws."

The current obsession with "Climate Change" is an attempt to fill in the void of a world that is largely abandoning G-d.
It combines Man's natural urge to "do something" about any given situation with the hubris to think that Man can change the Earth's Climate.
It is a silly, futile, and, in the long run, very self destructive, endeavor in arrogant snobbery.

Yes, the idea that bad weather is punishment for humans angering nature is nothing new- it is arguably the most ancient and persistent superstition known to mankind. All we've done is switch scary masks and dances for computer simulations.

It was called global cooling when I went to school, and it's gone through a few contradictory name changes since. But the name doesn't matter, the climate 'problem' can be anything, it's about the 'solution' and that never changes; sacrifices of wealth, accepted by the authorities on nature's behalf.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
My question was not regarding whether or not Man has caused "heat retention effects." I was not suggesting that global warming or whatever you want to call it is "rational."
I was suggesting - stating - that what you and others appear to be positing is that Man can "fix" the "heat retention effects;" - Reverse global warming.
The "global warming" community appears to believe that THEY can, in fact, Change the freaking weather. They can cause Climate Change to Reverse global warming.
I find that idea illogical. Cute. Endearing. Very human. But totally irrational.
You would need to get 7 plus billion people on planet Earth to radically change their way of life in order to simply stop causing your "heat retention effects" and, after that, according to almost all sincere scientists who believe that global warming is a problem, it would have little or NO Effect on actually "reversing" global warming.
So should we all just give up then?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
My question was not regarding whether or not Man has caused "heat retention effects." I was not suggesting that global warming or whatever you want to call it is "rational."
I was suggesting - stating - that what you and others appear to be positing is that Man can "fix" the "heat retention effects;" - Reverse global warming.
The "global warming" community appears to believe that THEY can, in fact, Change the freaking weather. They can cause Climate Change to Reverse global warming.
I find that idea illogical. Cute. Endearing. Very human. But totally irrational.
You would need to get 7 plus billion people on planet Earth to radically change their way of life in order to simply stop causing your "heat retention effects" and, after that, according to almost all sincere scientists who believe that global warming is a problem, it would have little or NO Effect on actually "reversing" global warming.
But what is the alternative? Just give up? Do nothing?

Yes, it's a daunting task, no doubt, but I'm not one to give up that easily. Nor are most of the climate-science experts willing to throw in the towel yet, and I'm taking my cue from them.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, the idea that bad weather is punishment for humans angering nature is nothing new- it is arguably the most ancient and persistent superstition known to mankind. All we've done is switch scary masks and dances for computer simulations.

It was called global cooling when I went to school, and it's gone through a few contradictory name changes since. But the name doesn't matter, the climate 'problem' can be anything, it's about the 'solution' and that never changes; sacrifices of wealth, accepted by the authorities on nature's behalf.
The "global cooling" was only a hypothesis built on the cyclical nature of the ice-ages. When this was hypothesized, much less was known about the effect of both large volcanoes and large meteorites hitting Earth.

I can't understand why some of you think these scientists are either stupid and/or dishonest about this?
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
So should we all just give up then?
I don't understand.
Give up what?
The world is not going to end; we are all not going to die; the planet is not going to be made uninhabitable due to climate change or global warming or cooling or whatever you want to call it...
No. Don't give up. Live life. Love. Laugh. Be happy. Love G-d. Make a difference in this world by doing something that helps people - not by living in some fantasy of trying to change the weather because you think bad things are going to happen...
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't understand.
Give up what?
The world is not going to end; we are all not going to die; the planet is not going to be made uninhabitable due to climate change or global warming or cooling or whatever you want to call it...
No. Don't give up. Live life. Love. Laugh. Be happy. Love G-d. Make a difference in this world by doing something that helps people - not by living in some fantasy of trying to change the weather because you think bad things are going to happen...
That's like burrowing one's head in the sand and avoiding what the climate experts from all over the world are saying. It's sort of the "Let's party today and the hell with tomorrow" kind of attitude.

When the overwhelming number of experts on the subject are saying the same thing, I would suggest we take their advice seriously. And what we see with the glaciers and polar ice-caps melting, matched with rising sea levels, if there was any doubt before, these trends verify what indeed is happening.

Yes, climate change probably won't have any effect on me since I'm 70, but I have kids and grandkids that can and probably will be affected by what we are seeing happening, especially the latter. So, are we to live for today and not work on trying to work with others to help our kids and grandkids with their future? To me, that's child abuse.

This is not a game whereas we can push "reset" and start all over again if we screw up-- this is real. And since we know that it is mostly higher levels of both CO2 and methane gas that's causing this increase in temperature, and since these are largely the by-product of fossil fuel burning and also large-scale animal husbandry, matched with fewer trees to help absorb some of the CO2, there are somethings we can do besides "eat, drink, and be merry".

If I need some advice on Torah, I don't go to Fox news. I ask my rabbi, and if he doesn't know, he'll refer me to someone else. About 20 years ago I had a question that went from here, to a rabbi in NY, and since they couldn't answer it, it then went to Jerusalem and I got a response back from a rabbi there who was able to answer my question.
I have long realized that experts should be listened to, although not blindly followed, whether it be a scientific case like the issue of global warming or a theological case within Judaism. The latter is real, we know there are things we can do about it, so partying like there's no tomorrow is probably not the best thing for us to do.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
So should we all just give up then?

Give up on billions in government waste on companies like Solyndra, industry crippling regulations, scaring school children, raising cost of energy and living on those who can least afford it- while subsidizing novelty sports cars for the wealthy

That would be a start yes!
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That's like burrowing one's head in the sand and avoiding what the climate experts from all over the world are saying. It's sort of the "Let's party today and the hell with tomorrow" kind of attitude.

When the overwhelming number of experts on the subject are saying the same thing, I would suggest we take their advice seriously. And what we see with the glaciers and polar ice-caps melting, matched with rising sea levels, if there was any doubt before, these trends verify what indeed is happening.

Yes, climate change probably won't have any effect on me since I'm 70, but I have kids and grandkids that can and probably will be affected by what we are seeing happening, especially the latter. So, are we to live for today and not work on trying to work with others to help our kids and grandkids with their future? To me, that's child abuse.

This is not a game whereas we can push "reset" and start all over again if we screw up-- this is real. And since we know that it is mostly higher levels of both CO2 and methane gas that's causing this increase in temperature, and since these are largely the by-product of fossil fuel burning and also large-scale animal husbandry, matched with fewer trees to help absorb some of the CO2, there are somethings we can do besides "eat, drink, and be merry".

If I need some advice on Torah, I don't go to Fox news. I ask my rabbi, and if he doesn't know, he'll refer me to someone else. About 20 years ago I had a question that went from here, to a rabbi in NY, and since they couldn't answer it, it then went to Jerusalem and I got a response back from a rabbi there who was able to answer my question.
I have long realized that experts should be listened to, although not blindly followed, whether it be a scientific case like the issue of global warming or a theological case within Judaism. The latter is real, we know there are things we can do about it, so partying like there's no tomorrow is probably not the best thing for us to do.
This ^^^
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
That's like burrowing one's head in the sand and avoiding what the climate experts from all over the world are saying. It's sort of the "Let's party today and the hell with tomorrow" kind of attitude.

When the overwhelming number of experts on the subject are saying the same thing, I would suggest we take their advice seriously. And what we see with the glaciers and polar ice-caps melting, matched with rising sea levels, if there was any doubt before, these trends verify what indeed is happening.

Yes, climate change probably won't have any effect on me since I'm 70, but I have kids and grandkids that can and probably will be affected by what we are seeing happening, especially the latter. So, are we to live for today and not work on trying to work with others to help our kids and grandkids with their future? To me, that's child abuse.

This is not a game whereas we can push "reset" and start all over again if we screw up-- this is real. And since we know that it is mostly higher levels of both CO2 and methane gas that's causing this increase in temperature, and since these are largely the by-product of fossil fuel burning and also large-scale animal husbandry, matched with fewer trees to help absorb some of the CO2, there are somethings we can do besides "eat, drink, and be merry".

If I need some advice on Torah, I don't go to Fox news. I ask my rabbi, and if he doesn't know, he'll refer me to someone else. About 20 years ago I had a question that went from here, to a rabbi in NY, and since they couldn't answer it, it then went to Jerusalem and I got a response back from a rabbi there who was able to answer my question.
I have long realized that experts should be listened to, although not blindly followed, whether it be a scientific case like the issue of global warming or a theological case within Judaism. The latter is real, we know there are things we can do about it, so partying like there's no tomorrow is probably not the best thing for us to do.
Oy vey...
If you insist that "something must be done" because of "what the climate experts from all over the world are saying," then please tell me "what the climate experts from all over the world are saying" MUST BE DONE?
If your experts can answer just a few questions, expertly; scientifically - as they claim are their calculations and observations, then I am totally on board my friend!

What exactly, scientifically must be done to solve/ reverse/ ameliorate/ etc. Climate Change?
How long, scientifically, will it take to solve/ reverse/ ameliorate/ etc. Climate Change if these practices are instituted?
What effect, scientifically, will these instituted changes have on the health and well being of the majority of humanity?

My rules are simple. Don't tell me you can't answer the questions but that we should have faith that your experts know what they are doing...
Because, your "faith" then boils down to the simple belief that you and your experts believe that THEY can Change the Climate of planet Earth.
I find that faith preposterous.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Oy vey...
If you insist that "something must be done" because of "what the climate experts from all over the world are saying," then please tell me "what the climate experts from all over the world are saying" MUST BE DONE?
If your experts can answer just a few questions, expertly; scientifically - as they claim are their calculations and observations, then I am totally on board my friend!

What exactly, scientifically must be done to solve/ reverse/ ameliorate/ etc. Climate Change?
How long, scientifically, will it take to solve/ reverse/ ameliorate/ etc. Climate Change if these practices are instituted?
What effect, scientifically, will these instituted changes have on the health and well being of the majority of humanity?

My rules are simple. Don't tell me you can't answer the questions but that we should have faith that your experts know what they are doing...
Because, your "faith" then boils down to the simple belief that you and your experts believe that THEY can Change the Climate of planet Earth.
I find that faith preposterous.
The above has already been explained, and you can access sites like NASA, NOAA, the NAS, Scientific American, etc. for objective evidence, plus what they know what can be done, which also was mentioned by myself on a previous post or two.

Just a quick mention that the dealing with this issue of climate change also has some side-benefits of reducing air pollution, conserving some of our non-renewable resources, reducing water pollution levels, etc.

I'm a scientist (retired for 12 years now), so I do not really put much reliance whatsoever on faith, but I betcha you do. Either one does their best to try and understand objectively-derived evidence through scientific studies or they don't, and it appears to me that you pretty much fit into the "don't" category. And you simply cannot derive such evidence by not doing some studying on the subject instead of just acting on emotion and/or some political position.

The climate scientists well know what's causing most of the global warming, they well know what can be done to reduce it, and if you're not even aware of either, then maybe it's best to hit the books instead of playing little games-- "Oy vey" yourself.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
The above has already been explained, and you can access sites like NASA, NOAA, the NAS, Scientific American, etc. for objective evidence, plus what they know what can be done, which also was mentioned by myself on a previous post or two.

Just a quick mention that the dealing with this issue of climate change also has some side-benefits of reducing air pollution, conserving some of our non-renewable resources, reducing water pollution levels, etc.

I'm a scientist (retired for 12 years now), so I do not really put much reliance whatsoever on faith, but I betcha you do. Either one does their best to try and understand objectively-derived evidence through scientific studies or they don't, and it appears to me that you pretty much fit into the "don't" category. And you simply cannot derive such evidence by not doing some studying on the subject instead of just acting on emotion and/or some political position.

The climate scientists well know what's causing most of the global warming, they well know what can be done to reduce it, and if you're not even aware of either, then maybe it's best to hit the books instead of playing little games-- "Oy vey" yourself.
As a scientist, you are fully aware that what you just wrote means that neither the experts nor you have any answers whatsoever to my questions.
The fact that you cannot simply come out and write that says much about your faith.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As a scientist, you are fully aware that what you just wrote means that neither the experts nor you have any answers whatsoever to my questions.
The fact that you cannot simply come out and write that says much about your faith.
It is well documented what can be done and why climate scientists throughout the world well know that significantly reducing CO2 and methane gas levels can and will have a positive effect. What cannot be known because there are too many variables involved is how some cutbacks with these emissions will affect the climate change situation overall because it begs how much reduction would there be and what types of reductions are involved,

Thus, the details we cannot be certain of because of that, but since we know the main causes of global warming, it's quite logical that reductions n CO2 and methane gas can have an effect if properly and thoroughly instituted, which is why the scientific community, including NOAA, NASA, the NAS, etc. overwhelming back such changes.

But your last sentence is quite snarky in that I have posted sources from experts that you could very easily have checked out if you really wanted to, and even the Wikipedia article on "Global Warming" has plenty of good information plus links to scientific studies, and you can find that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

If you're not willing to spend time checking on such things, then don't be so disingenuous about saying I haven't supplied you with the resources to deal with your questions.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
It is well documented what can be done and why climate scientists throughout the world well know that significantly reducing CO2 and methane gas levels can and will have a positive effect. What cannot be known because there are too many variables involved is how some cutbacks with these emissions will affect the climate change situation overall because it begs how much reduction would there be and what types of reductions are involved,

Thus, the details we cannot be certain of because of that, but since we know the main causes of global warming, it's quite logical that reductions n CO2 and methane gas can have an effect if properly and thoroughly instituted, which is why the scientific community, including NOAA, NASA, the NAS, etc. overwhelming back such changes.

But your last sentence is quite snarky in that I have posted sources from experts that you could very easily have checked out if you really wanted to, and even the Wikipedia article on "Global Warming" has plenty of good information plus links to scientific studies, and you can find that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

If you're not willing to spend time checking on such things, then don't be so disingenuous about saying I haven't supplied you with the resources to deal with your questions.
My response was snarky due to the fact that neither you nor your scientists can answer my questions.
Global Warming advocates are extremely specific regarding carbon emissions and their effect on your "heat retention." Based on measurements and data collected, y'all claim that the Earth is Warming at such and such a rate. And, based on this same data plus computer modeling, y'all have predicted nearly apocalyptic consequences due to this Warming. Cities drowned; droughts; famine; billions of people dispossessed of their homes; farmlands; and livelihoods.
Now, due to the hard cold fact that NONE of these dire events have occurred and that no one seems to able to predict any of these consquences with any degree of accuracy, I want to know why anyone should take these predictions seriously.
The problem being that I am quite willing to take YOU and Global Warming scientists seriously if you could offer any accurate data that whatever y'all believe can fix this "problem" will actually fix the problem.
But, you can't.
You BELIEVE that "it's quite logical that reductions n CO2 and methane gas can have an effect if properly and thoroughly instituted."
Yet, any rational human being knows with absolute certainty that "reductions n CO2 and methane gas" will NEVER be "properly and thoroughly instituted" as you BELIEVE is necessary to have an effect on your Global Warming.

If you and your scientists were more concerned with dealing with the effects of your global warming and how to save mankind from the rising oceans and other effects that you BELIEVE will happen then, that would be immensely more logical and rational than believing Mankind is going to collectively change the freaking weather!
Mankind is NOT going to do this and, it would be more rational for you and others to work off that premise.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
My response was snarky due to the fact that neither you nor your scientists can answer my questions.
Global Warming advocates are extremely specific regarding carbon emissions and their effect on your "heat retention." Based on measurements and data collected, y'all claim that the Earth is Warming at such and such a rate. And, based on this same data plus computer modeling, y'all have predicted nearly apocalyptic consequences due to this Warming. Cities drowned; droughts; famine; billions of people dispossessed of their homes; farmlands; and livelihoods.
Now, due to the hard cold fact that NONE of these dire events have occurred and that no one seems to able to predict any of these consquences with any degree of accuracy, I want to know why anyone should take these predictions seriously.
The problem being that I am quite willing to take YOU and Global Warming scientists seriously if you could offer any accurate data that whatever y'all believe can fix this "problem" will actually fix the problem.
But, you can't.
You BELIEVE that "it's quite logical that reductions n CO2 and methane gas can have an effect if properly and thoroughly instituted."
Yet, any rational human being knows with absolute certainty that "reductions n CO2 and methane gas" will NEVER be "properly and thoroughly instituted" as you BELIEVE is necessary to have an effect on your Global Warming.

If you and your scientists were more concerned with dealing with the effects of your global warming and how to save mankind from the rising oceans and other effects that you BELIEVE will happen then, that would be immensely more logical and rational than believing Mankind is going to collectively change the freaking weather!
Mankind is NOT going to do this and, it would be more rational for you and others to work off that premise.
You are ignoring what already is known if you had actually spent some time checking out the sources I mentioned. Temperatures are increasing, the Arctic and Antarctic ice caps and most glaciers worldwide are thinning, and sea levels have been increasing over the last half a century. These are well established through actual measurements that you seemingly have ignored.

What you appear to be conflating is what we know through these measurements versus projected models, and models simply are estimations based on the best available evidence that may not always be spot on in the long run.

It's "nice" to know that us scientists do not meet your criterion for "rational", and then you type "never" and "BELIEVE", thus ignoring the fact that models are not "BELIEFS", and this includes exactly what it would take to possibly reverse the warming that we see. These are based on what's called "evidence", which then are put in conjunction with other pieces of evidence. I would suggest that these scientists are not anywhere near as ignorant as you seemingly assert, but then I doubt very much that you even spent one minute checking out the sources I recommended.

But since you have decided to attack what you call "BELIEFS" that we supposedly have, let me deal with "BELIEFS" in regards to you. Knowing what you "BELIEVE" in general, I know you believe in books written by sheep & goat herders written 3000 years ago that deal with what you believe a deity inspired, along with rules of conduct that supposedly come from this all-powerful deity. Of course, I guarantee that you cannot produce one objective shred of evidence that such deity actually exists let alone that this deity actually inspired your books.

Maybe if you actually began to put at least some limited "BELIEF" in regards to what we know today through objective research instead of spending so much time just reading what your goat/sheep herder-inspired texts say, maybe you actually might be further ahead.

And if you don't like what I wrote above, then maybe "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
You are ignoring what already is known if you had actually spent some time checking out the sources I mentioned. Temperatures are increasing, the Arctic and Antarctic ice caps and most glaciers worldwide are thinning, and sea levels have been increasing over the last half a century. These are well established through actual measurements that you seemingly have ignored.

What you appear to be conflating is what we know through these measurements versus projected models, and models simply are estimations based on the best available evidence that may not always be spot on in the long run.

It's "nice" to know that us scientists do not meet your criterion for "rational", and then you type "never" and "BELIEVE", thus ignoring the fact that models are not "BELIEFS", and this includes exactly what it would take to possibly reverse the warming that we see. These are based on what's called "evidence", which then are put in conjunction with other pieces of evidence. I would suggest that these scientists are not anywhere near as ignorant as you seemingly assert, but then I doubt very much that you even spent one minute checking out the sources I recommended.

But since you have decided to attack what you call "BELIEFS" that we supposedly have, let me deal with "BELIEFS" in regards to you. Knowing what you "BELIEVE" in general, I know you believe in books written by sheep & goat herders written 3000 years ago that deal with what you believe a deity inspired, along with rules of conduct that supposedly come from this all-powerful deity. Of course, I guarantee that you cannot produce one objective shred of evidence that such deity actually exists let alone that this deity actually inspired your books.

Maybe if you actually began to put at least some limited "BELIEF" in regards to what we know today through objective research instead of spending so much time just reading what your goat/sheep herder-inspired texts say, maybe you actually might be further ahead.

And if you don't like what I wrote above, then maybe "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
I have no problems with your assumptions regarding beliefs. I think you are wrong but, hey, it's a free country.

You do appear to have a problem with your own belief system however.
Your belief system entails that your models and projections might not be "spot on."
That's a bit more humorous than the books written by goat herders...
Why?
Because most religion, including being a Jew, is solely based on what cannot be proved or measured by science. That's the fac' jac'.

However, your beliefs are so rigid and dogmatic that you cannot even conceive that your estimations are quite a bit less than "spot on."
You cling to this truly nonsensical notion that Mankind is all going to put its little collective efforts together and change or reverse "Global Warming."
Even though there is absolutely no historical evidence, short of Absolute brutal Dictatorship and slavery, of mankind ever banding together in such a fashion, you and your scientists appear to have Faith that it will indeed happen, somehow; somewhere; someday.
And, in the meantime, y'all are willing to throw trillions of currency produced by Mankind into a true sinkhole of "Green alternatives;" "Carbon Credits;" and fossil fuel restrictions which, if carried out to the extent that y'all claimed is needed to change Global Warming would, in fact, reduce the lifespan and increase the suffering of billions of human beings.
Ah. But in the Name of Reducing Carbon Emissions, y'all will follow Algore, High Priest of Baal of the Warming Glo, into his Fantasyland of Death and Doom. And, it matters not a whit how many die or suffer in the pursuit of your gods....
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You do appear to have a problem with your own belief system however.
To refer to what we do in science as being a "belief system" is so bizarre that it pretty much would tell anyone who is involved in science that you really don't know what you're talking about. The only two axioms that cannot be verified that we do "believe" is that "the universe is understandable" (to a certain extent at east we can use our senses) and that the "universe is orderly" (cause & effect). Logically, without assuming those two, none of us could function even with day to day activities.

After those, pretty much everything is up for grabs. When you call what we do in science a "belief system", either you are ignorant of the system itself, just being disingenuous, or both. The scientific method simply is not a "belief system", nor is what may emerge out of our studies a "belief system" since we do not ever assume anything else is beyond questioning. Scriptures are mostly based on a "belief systems", axioms, theories, and hypotheses are based on the assimilation and compilation of objectively-derived evidence. To equate the two as being the same doesn't even reflect an understanding of what an elementary child should know.

Your belief system entails that your models and projections might not be "spot on."
That's a bit more humorous than the books written by goat herders...
Why?
Because most religion, including being a Jew, is solely based on what cannot be proved or measured by science. That's the fac' jac'.
To equate scientific research as somehow be of lesser objectivity than scriptures is a really good joke-- you should go into comedy. Also, there are many areas whereas scripture rubs against science, such as what created our universe? We have evidence for the Big Bang but you have not one shred of objective evidence that a deity created our universe. To somehow equate these two approaches is complete unadulterated nonsense.

However, your beliefs are so rigid and dogmatic that you cannot even conceive that your estimations are quite a bit less than "spot on."

My beliefs are rigid? Please tell me exactly what my beliefs are and how they are supposedly "rigid"? You do not know what you are talking about, so the only thing you can do at this juncture is to draw false equivalences and fabricate stories. You obviously do not know where I'm coming from in regards to science since you're constantly making errors on our approaches. So, all you do again is to fabricate even more stories-- Grimm would be so proud of you.

You cling to this truly nonsensical notion that Mankind is all going to put its little collective efforts together and change or reverse "Global Warming."
Even though there is absolutely no historical evidence, short of Absolute brutal Dictatorship and slavery, of mankind ever banding together in such a fashion, you and your scientists appear to have Faith that it will indeed happen, somehow; somewhere; someday.

Again, since you obviously are pretty much clueless when it comes to the scientific approach, especially since you can't tell the difference between "beliefs" and "evidence based on the scientific method", how in the world do you know what supposedly wouldn't work? Talk about bizarre "projections"-- you've just cited a dandy.

Secondly, don't you think that there are some things that maybe are just right to do because they can help people, or is it that only if we solve every single problem before we can do something? Even cutbacks on the personal level can help, and we could spend substantial amount of time talking about steps that could help not only ourselves but others. It's not a zero-sum game, although it seems that you think it is.

And, in the meantime, y'all are willing to throw trillions of currency produced by Mankind into a true sinkhole of "Green alternatives;" "Carbon Credits;" and fossil fuel restrictions which, if carried out to the extent that y'all claimed is needed to change Global Warming would, in fact, reduce the lifespan and increase the suffering of billions of human beings.
Ah. But in the Name of Reducing Carbon Emissions, y'all will follow Algore, High Priest of Baal of the Warming Glo, into his Fantasyland of Death and Doom. And, it matters not a whit how many die or suffer in the pursuit of your gods....

So, you think money is more important that life and health and the well-being of future generations? Ever hear of "green energy"? The fact is that we in North America and the countries in western Europe already have made some good progress, and even China is making rapid changes, spending even more money than we are.

Ever hear of "energy conservation", which I would suggest saves money and also makes sense in regard to preserving what fuels we have left.

Ever hear of "high tech", which already has decreased fuel emissions on vehicles, for just one example.

If we reduce pollution, is that a problem with you? We're talking about taking steps that will save money in the long run plus help people live healthier-- you gotta problem with that too?
I'm not an Al Gore fan, never have been one, but the reality is that most of what he wrote about and talked about is correct. But you would rather demean him than to actually spend time studying to actually find out that he was correct on the vast majority of items. It's so much easier for you to just sit back, ignore what's there, and just fabricate one Fantasy Island story after another.

Well, I guess we've hit a dead end because we simply are working from different paradigms, so I'll go back to my science books while you learn more from those sheep & goat herders I guess. You can have your subjective beliefs and I'll take my objective evidence-- and they ain't the same no matter how many stories you like to tell, and you do tell a lot.
 
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People do ruin the earth. Bible confirms that in Rev 11:18. So whatever climate changes appear, they are the result of humans pushing the earth beyond its natural cycles.
 
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