is it enough??

sandy whitelinger said:

that's a cop out. Job thought he needed a redeemer or he would not have said I know that my redeemer lives. Job would not have taken personal acceptance of a redeemer without any need of one. It is an Old Testament truth that says there is no man that is without sin. So again what was he being redeemed from?

Click to expand...

welllll based on the story

....nothing....

he did nothing wrong, he was a righteous man and HaShem allowed The satan to test him. He passed the test.
Does Job ever talk about what he needs redemeption from???

and where is this "old testament truth" at exactly?

jewscout said:

he did nothing wrong, he was a righteous man and HaShem allowed The satan to test him. He passed the test.
Does Job ever talk about what he needs redemeption from???

and where is this "old testament truth" at exactly?

Click to expand...

First mention I Kings 8:36.

sandy whitelinger said:

First mention I Kings 8:36.

Click to expand...

then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy servants, and of Thy people Israel, when Thou teachest them the good way wherein they should walk; and send rain upon Thy land, which Thou hast given to Thy people for an inheritance.
uhhh....sorry Sandy i don't see it here...
what i see is a description of heartful repentance...nothing about "no man is without sin"

in the previous verse, G-d punishes the sinner, they turn away from sin and return to Torah and Mitzvot, G-d accepts their teshuva...
seems pretty clear to me...

sojourner said:

LOL :foot:

To answer your question:
No. I don't think you have to be a "believer" in order to be saved. God imparts grace to all. What separates the believer from the unbeliever is how one responds to the grace that is given.

Click to expand...

HUH??? you are either a believer of Christs sacrifice and are then known as a believer or your not...it's not in JUST believing that saves you from hell in the end...it's the act of accepting Christ's sacrifice in atonement for our sins that we are able to know that we are secure in our eternity. I DO believe that you must accept Christ's gift of grace to actually be safe from eternal damnation of hell's fire for eternity. The Bible says you can't serve God and mammon (satan)...you're either a believer through Christs redeeming blood or your not...there is NO middle road based on what scripture says and I believe.

fromthe heart said:

HUH??? you are either a believer of Christs sacrifice and are then known as a believer or your not...it's not in JUST believing that saves you from hell in the end...it's the act of accepting Christ's sacrifice in atonement for our sins that we are able to know that we are secure in our eternity. I DO believe that you must accept Christ's gift of grace to actually be safe from eternal damnation of hell's fire for eternity. The Bible says you can't serve God and mammon (satan)...you're either a believer through Christs redeeming blood or your not...there is NO middle road based on what scripture says and I believe.

Click to expand...

You're entitled to your beliefs.

I don't believe in the doctrine of the blood atonement.

It's belief that makes me secure about salvation, but that belief is not what saved me.

This isn't a middle road...it's a belief that God desires to save everyone, and God always gets what God wants.

sojourner said:

You're entitled to your beliefs.

I don't believe in the doctrine of the blood atonement.

It's belief that makes me secure about salvation, but that belief is not what saved me.

This isn't a middle road...it's a belief that God desires to save everyone, and God always gets what God wants.

Click to expand...

You are as well entitled to your beliefs..but if you are a Christian you must have read the scriptures( God's Holy Word) and know that in the Old Testament it was blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin and in the New Testament it was Christ's blood( a pure and blameless sacrifice) on the cross that saved those who accepted Him as the eternal sacrifice for sin. It's all over the Bible on what God expects of us and what has to take place and what happens to those who don't pay due benevelance...Are you saying you don't believe in scripture? How do you come to your beliefs and say you are a 'Christian'? I'm in no way trying to demean you OR your beliefs just understand your beliefs.

jewscout said:

then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy servants, and of Thy people Israel, when Thou teachest them the good way wherein they should walk; and send rain upon Thy land, which Thou hast given to Thy people for an inheritance.
uhhh....sorry Sandy i don't see it here...
what i see is a description of heartful repentance...nothing about "no man is without sin"

in the previous verse, G-d punishes the sinner, they turn away from sin and return to Torah and Mitzvot, G-d accepts their teshuva...
seems pretty clear to me...

Click to expand...

My bad, I Kings 8:46

sandy whitelinger said:

My bad, I Kings 8:46

Click to expand...

ok...lets see....

If they sin against Thee--for there is no man that sinneth not--and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near;
very true...all men sin...Judaism admits this...i think, tho what should be noted, at least from a jewish perspective, that a "redeemer" to redeem you of sins is not necessary

if you read the rest of the verses that follow, u can see it is almost rehashing some of the curses that Moses warned the israelites about in the torah...but it also talks about if the people make teshuva, repent, turn back to the Torah and it's Mitzvot...that HaShem will hear their prayers and see them doing right and act compassionately toward them...
in this way, one could say, that they are being "redeemed"...but it is because they, the people who sinned, took steps and actions, performing mitzvot, that found favor in the eyes of haShem

If they sin against Thee--for there is no man that sinneth not--and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near; yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they are carried captive, and turn back, and make supplication unto Thee in the land of them that carried them captive, saying: We have sinned, and have done iniquitously, we have dealt wickedly; if they return unto Thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray unto Thee toward their land, which Thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which Thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for Thy name; then hear Thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and maintain their cause; and forgive Thy people who have sinned against Thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against Thee; and give them compassion before those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them; for they are Thy people, and Thine inheritance, which Thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron; that Thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of Thy servant, and unto the supplication of Thy people Israel, to hearken unto them whensoever they cry unto Thee. For Thou didst set them apart from among all the peoples of the earth, to be Thine inheritance, as Thou didst speak by the hand of Moses Thy servant, when Thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O L-rd G-D.' (1 Kings 8:46-53)
but a redeemer is not necessary

fromthe heart said:

You are as well entitled to your beliefs..but if you are a Christian you must have read the scriptures( God's Holy Word) and know that in the Old Testament it was blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin and in the New Testament it was Christ's blood( a pure and blameless sacrifice) on the cross that saved those who accepted Him as the eternal sacrifice for sin. It's all over the Bible on what God expects of us and what has to take place and what happens to those who don't pay due benevelance...Are you saying you don't believe in scripture? How do you come to your beliefs and say you are a 'Christian'? I'm in no way trying to demean you OR your beliefs just understand your beliefs.

Click to expand...

Xy is not the same thing as Temple Judaism. We are justified through faith. Check with Eastern belief. Blood atonement is a Western Church concept.

That saved all humanity. The Biblical story is not one of a people who are faithful to God, but of a God who is always faithful to God's promise. Read John 3:16-17. God'sintention is salvation for the whole world.

It's all over the Bible what God has promised, and that God always keeps God's promises. Jesus tells us that the shepherd leaves the 99 sheep and searches for the one that is lost until he finds it. The woman searches for her lost coin, until she finds it. God promises to search us out until God finds us.

Because my interpretation doesn't jive with yours, and because I refuse to believe that God will allow any of God's children to perish, contrary to God's promises, I cannot be a Christian???

God is a God of covenant. God has always established covenants with God's people. God has promised to never forsake us. God has promised us eternal salvation in Jesus. Your statement, "What happens to those who don't pay due benevolence" makes salvation dependent upon our works (or the lack thereof.) If grace is grace, then grace is a gift, not a reward.

fromthe heart said:

HUH??? you are either a believer of Christs sacrifice and are then known as a believer or your not...it's not in JUST believing that saves you from hell in the end...it's the act of accepting Christ's sacrifice in atonement for our sins that we are able to know that we are secure in our eternity. I DO believe that you must accept Christ's gift of grace to actually be safe from eternal damnation of hell's fire for eternity. The Bible says you can't serve God and mammon (satan)...you're either a believer through Christs redeeming blood or your not...there is NO middle road based on what scripture says and I believe.

Click to expand...

So what road are those who lived and died without ever having heard of Christ's Atonement on? Are they on the road to damnation simply because they were born in the wrong place or at the wrong time. Or, when it gets right down to it, will God say that the rules don't really pertain to these folks, and that they'll be judged according to a different standard (their works as opposed to their faith in Christ)? Or is there another option we haven't yet explored?

From the Heart makes the right point, imo. We must come to Christ as hopeless, miserable, poor, wretched sinners and ask for his mercy, repenting from (changing our mind) what we think we can do to save ourselves and accept God's free gift, as all our righteousness, dead works, or anything else we do falls short. But what of those who never heard of Christ? Well, Romans and many places answer this, one is held accountable for the light given them, namely the creation showing a creator, and our conscience, God's word written in our heart, knowledge of right and wrong. Now, if one realizes they have a creator, and they know they have done wrong, and ask for forgiveness, I believe they are forgiven. If one has never heard of Jesus of course they will not be judged for rejecting Him, because they never did. But, if a person hears the true gospel message, that Jesus died, was buried and rose again, His death paying for all the sins of all the world, every last one, and rejects this wonderful, horribly costly gift, they have no hope, they have no payment for their sins, and must pay for them themselves. Theologians answer the question of 'those who never heard' better and more in-depth than I, but, for those who have heard, yet reject, or add to, (actually taking away from)this 'so great salvation', I know no other way by which we can be saved. We are all sinners, the wages of which is death, Christ died thus paying for all our sins, and if we trust in that, our sins are forgiven and Christ imputes His righteousness unto us in place of our own. So we do not have to go about 'to establish our own righteousness'. Christ explained how, according to all the things written about Him in the scriptures, OT, He HAD to suffer and die, according to scriptures, to fulfil all the things pertaining to Him. It is so simple, its just John 3:16: (I like 17&18 too...)
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(King James Bible, John)

joeboonda said:

From the Heart makes the right point, imo. We must come to Christ as hopeless, miserable, poor, wretched sinners and ask for his mercy, repenting from (changing our mind) what we think we can do to save ourselves and accept God's free gift, as all our righteousness, dead works, or anything else we do falls short. But what of those who never heard of Christ? Well, Romans and many places answer this, one is held accountable for the light given them, namely the creation showing a creator, and our conscience, God's word written in our heart, knowledge of right and wrong. Now, if one realizes they have a creator, and they know they have done wrong, and ask for forgiveness, I believe they are forgiven. If one has never heard of Jesus of course they will not be judged for rejecting Him, because they never did. But, if a person hears the true gospel message, that Jesus died, was buried and rose again, His death paying for all the sins of all the world, every last one, and rejects this wonderful, horribly costly gift, they have no hope, they have no payment for their sins, and must pay for them themselves. Theologians answer the question of 'those who never heard' better and more in-depth than I, but, for those who have heard, yet reject, or add to, (actually taking away from)this 'so great salvation', I know no other way by which we can be saved. We are all sinners, the wages of which is death, Christ died thus paying for all our sins, and if we trust in that, our sins are forgiven and Christ imputes His righteousness unto us in place of our own. So we do not have to go about 'to establish our own righteousness'. Christ explained how, according to all the things written about Him in the scriptures, OT, He HAD to suffer and die, according to scriptures, to fulfil all the things pertaining to Him. It is so simple, its just John 3:16: (I like 17&18 too...)
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(King James Bible, John)

Click to expand...

See the sentences in red. You've just contradicted yourself. If Christ paid for all our sins already, by dying on the cross, how can we "have no payment?" If the tab's been picked up, it's been picked up, and there is nothing more we can do to pay the tab.

In the blue type: So...Christ's salvific work depends upon our action, specifically the action of trust? In other words, by our inaction, we are capable of rendering null and void Christ's sacrifice, and also capable of thwarting God's plan for us?

quote: sojourner "and also capable of thwarting God's plan for us?"

Depends on what you think God's plan for us is. If you look at why God created us, you will find that He gave us a choice to worship Him. Life is meaningful to humans because we are free to believe whatever we want. However, if we believe the "wrong" thing by not accepting God then we must suffer the consequences of our actions. AKA death. However, there is an alternate view which begins i believe in Revelations where it talks about people getting into heaven slightly burned. Meaning everyone is going to heaven.

Arrow said:

quote: sojourner "and also capable of thwarting God's plan for us?"

Depends on what you think God's plan for us is. If you look at why God created us, you will find that He gave us a choice to worship Him. Life is meaningful to humans because we are free to believe whatever we want. However, if we believe the "wrong" thing by not accepting God then we must suffer the consequences of our actions. AKA death. However, there is an alternate view which begins i believe in Revelations where it talks about people getting into heaven slightly burned. Meaning everyone is going to heaven.

Click to expand...

And has not humanity already suffered death because of our sin? Will not all subsequent human beings suffer death because of human sin? The more I study theology, the more I'm convinced that this is a group effort, not an individual thing. Either we all are justified by faith, or we all are not.

When I read passages, such as the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost coin, it is obvious to me that God's intention is to find every single one of us. We are told again and again that God will search until God finds us, not until God tires of looking, or until the Baptists think God should stop, or until pigs learn how to play the piano...or until time runs out, or until we die. God will search until God finds us. That's my own take on what is "enough." It is enough to be a precious child of God.

sojourner said:

When I read passages, such as the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of the lost coin, it is obvious to me that God's intention is to find every single one of us. We are told again and again that God will search until God finds us, not until God tires of looking, or until the Baptists think God should stop, or until pigs learn how to play the piano...or until time runs out, or until we die. God will search until God finds us. That's my own take on what is "enough." It is enough to be a precious child of God.

Click to expand...

Just for clarification, what do you mean by God "finding" us? As in, accepting us into Heaven?

For god believers, have you ever considered that god could have created the universe, and exited stage right? Maybe a being that could create a universe isn't that concerned with the details.

logician said:

For god believers, have you ever considered that god could have created the universe, and exited stage right? Maybe a being that could create a universe isn't that concerned with the details.

Click to expand...

Nope, I believe that God was and is still over all details of the creation.

"Nope, I believe that God was and is still over all details of the creation"

I believe, then, that poor god needs a vacation.

jewscout said:

is it enough, in your view, to simply be a good person in order to get into "heaven" or an afterlife equivalent?

i guess the question is sorta pointless if you don't believe in this concept...

...but still, is being a good person enough or is more required in your personal view?

Click to expand...

Is having enough cash in my pocket enough to buy myself a ticket to Central?