Report Child Abuse? You're a Priest? Then No need to Bother

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 4, 2016

Thanda said:
I said if he is repenting he will. The word will is a term that pertains to the future. Now you may say, but what about the abuse he is doing in the meantime. But I remind you that if he chooses not to confess to the priest - that future date will likely be further away in the future. There are many child abusers who are not confessing to priests and they are certainly aren't any closer to stopping their crimes.

And there are many child abusers - often priests themselves - who confessed their crimes to other priests but went on abusijg for decades afterward. It was something of a cottage industry in the Catholic Church for a long time.

The evidence suggests that your claims about the magically behaviour-changing effects of confession are false.

Thanda · Nov 4, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
And there are many child abusers - often priests themselves - who confessed their crimes to other priests but went on abusijg for decades afterward. It was something of a cottage industry in the Catholic Church for a long time.

Indeed, but the question is did the confessional protection make cause them to abuse children? The answer is no. They were already doing it before.

Furthermore the Catholic Churches protection of abusive thieves has nothing to do with confessional protection. The Catholic Church could have prevented the abuse of further children by simply dismissing them as priests. They could have done so without violating confessional privacy.
So your attempts to link confessional protection (which is granted to priests/ministers of any church, denomination or religion) to the specific case of catholic priests' child abuse is weak.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
The evidence suggests that your claims about the magically behaviour-changing effects of confession are false.

Have you done a study on this?

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 4, 2016

Thanda said:
Indeed, but the question is did the confessional protection make cause them to abuse children? The answer is no. They were already doing it before.

The seal of confession creates an environment where abusers are protected. In that sense, the answer is yes.

Furthermore the Catholic Churches protection of abusive thieves has nothing to do with confessional protection. The Catholic Church could have prevented the abuse of further children by simply dismissing them as priests. They could have done so without violating confessional privacy.

No, they couldn't.

The seal of confession means that the confessor can't even tell other priests what he's learned. The Catholic Church doesn't defrock priests without cause, and it can't use anything learned through confession as the cause.

AFAIK, even the act of dismissing a priest for something learned in confession would break the seal of confession, even if nothing else was made public. Just implicitly saying "he told me something bad enough in confession that he got fired over it" is saying sonething.

So your attempts to link confessional protection (which is granted to priests/ministers of any church, denomination or religion) to the specific case of catholic priests' child abuse is weak.

It isn't just Catholic priests. There have been people of all sorts of professions who abused children, confessed it to their confessor, and kept at the abuse for years or decades.

Have you done a study on this?

You expect me to do a study on how wrong you are?

Shad · Nov 4, 2016

George-ananda said:
You missed my main point here. I am saying perpetrators would not go for any confessional counseling if they knew they could be reported. A priest may help the individual to do the right things to straighten his life out.

Think about this then. What if a person never comes forward? The person continues with their illegal acts and "confesses" to more crimes (or victims)? Do you think there is a point at which a spiritual leader can make a conclusion that this person will never turn themselves in so will make a report to authorities?

Sympathies for "religious confessions" and the criminal override those for the victim(s). Empathy becomes distorted. A privilege is given to the criminal at the expense of their victim(s).

Ana.J · Nov 4, 2016

omg ....The church is above law....as always

Aštra’el · Nov 4, 2016

Shad said:
Think about this then. What if a person never comes forward? The person continues with their illegal acts and "confesses" to more crimes (or victims)? Do you think there is a point at which a spiritual leader can make a conclusion that this person will never turn themselves in so will make a report to authorities?

It's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of devout Catholic priests would adopt a stance that nobody is beyond salvation.

Thanda · Nov 4, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
The seal of confession creates an environment where abusers are protected. In that sense, the answer is yes.

There is no environment of protection that is created by this - if the abuser wanted to be protected from all he has to do is keep quiet. The seal of confession only gives the abuser an opportunity to reform.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
No, they couldn't.

The seal of confession means that the confessor can't even tell other priests what he's learned. The Catholic Church doesn't defrock priests without cause, and it can't use anything learned through confession as the cause.

AFAIK, even the act of dismissing a priest for something learned in confession would break the seal of confession, even if nothing else was made public. Just implicitly saying "he told me something bad enough in confession that he got fired over it" is saying sonething.

"AFAIK" is not good enough. I suggest you (and I will too) study up on whether the seal of confession means priests can't be disciplined.
In my church for example (I am Mormon) we also believe in the seal of confession but that doesn't mean you cannot receive church discipline, including excommunication, based on the contents of what you have confessed - this is viewed part of the repentance process. Furthermore, if the process of giving you that church discipline requires the priest to tell another priest than it is also allowed. Furthermore if you have been harmed children before, then, regardless of what happens and how much you repent, you will never again be allowed to work with children or be in a position that will give you access to children.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
It isn't just Catholic priests. There have been people of all sorts of professions who abused children, confessed it to their confessor, and kept at the abuse for years or decades.

But they are less in number than those who have kept quiet and have never been found out by the law - and have continued with their abuse for years.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
You expect me to do a study on how wrong you are?

I expect you not to throw the word "evidence" around lightly.

Thanda · Nov 4, 2016

Goddess_Ashtara said:
It's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of devout Catholic priests would adopt a stance that nobody is beyond salvation.

Indeed - until 70 times 7 and all that...

George-ananda · Nov 4, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Someone who was afraid of being reported to the authorities by a priest would be more reluctant to abuse children in situations where a priest might find out.

And you continue to ignore the fact that often (maybe most of the time), it's the victims' confessions that lead to the priest knowing the abuse took place. In these situations, the seal of confession prevents the priest from taking steps to get the accused into "spiritual counselling" (which you still haven't explained, BTW) or take other measures directed toward the accused.

That is a weak argument as children reporting abuse to a priest would most often result in the priest counseling the child involved to go to his parents or some authority figure to have the abuse stopped. I will still maintain that all things considered, confessional privacy is better for society as it allows the perpetrator to hear advice that can cause him to get his life moving in a better direction (which increases child safety, over the alternative of the perpetrator receiving no spiritual guidance).

George-ananda · Nov 4, 2016

Shad said:
Think about this then. What if a person never comes forward? The person continues with their illegal acts and "confesses" to more crimes (or victims)? Do you think there is a point at which a spiritual leader can make a conclusion that this person will never turn themselves in so will make a report to authorities?

Sympathies for "religious confessions" and the criminal override those for the victim(s). Empathy becomes distorted. A privilege is given to the criminal at the expense of their victim(s).

I agree that you might be able to find examples of where confessional confidentiality is a problem. But in the overall, it is still more of a benefit to society to allow perpetrators to receive spiritual advice. If you really think this through, it really becomes an all or nothing thing this 'confessional confidentiality'.

Remember the person in your above scenario would not even have said word one to the priest without confessional confidentiality.

Skwim · Nov 4, 2016

Thanda said:
I said if he is repenting he will. The word will is a term that pertains to the future.

As did I.

"And by your former statement, that all of them will: none will ever sexually abuse anyone again. This is the naive part."

Now you may say, but what about the abuse he is doing in the meantime.

But the thing is, I'm not, so this is a moot point.

.

Shad · Nov 5, 2016

Goddess_Ashtara said:
It's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of devout Catholic priests would adopt a stance that nobody is beyond salvation.

That was not my question. Try again. Maybe read it this time.

Shad · Nov 5, 2016

George-ananda said:
I agree that you might be able to find examples of where confessional confidentiality is a problem. But in the overall, it is still more of a benefit to society to allow perpetrators to receive spiritual advice.

No it isn't. It benefits one person. It does not benefit society as a criminal that is known is still free. Their victims do not benefit at all. Special privilege of criminals based around a special privilege of religion

If you really think this through, it really becomes an all or nothing thing this 'confessional confidentiality'.

I see a special privilege of religion, nothing more

Remember the person in your above scenario would not even have said word one to the priest without confessional confidentiality.

You never answered my question, you dodged it, try again.

I said if a criminal confesses to a priest but does not turn themselves year after year can the priest report them? After all you hedged this position on people possibility turning themselves in. I am taking the reverse of this basis.What if they never turn themselves in?

Report Child Abuse? You're a Priest? Then No need to Bother

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Thanda

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9-10ths_Penguin

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Shad

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Ana.J

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Aštra’el

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Thanda

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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

George-ananda

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Skwim

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Shad

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