Do humans have a spirit?

Ben Avraham · Oct 23, 2016

Smart_Guy said:
Spirit a in Soul?

Soul is not a spirit. Soul is the combination of body with the breath of life. If you read Genesis 2:7, when the Lord formed man from the dust of the earth, He breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. To become is to be, not to have. So, we don't have souls; we are souls. When we die, the body goes back to the dust and the breath of life aka
the spirit goes back to God Who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) To speak of the breath of life as a
spirit is an euphemism.

Ben Avraham · Oct 23, 2016

james2ko said:
Are you sure?

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

To understand Ezekiel 37:12, you must read Isaiah 53:8,9. When the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. The text is not at all speaking about bodily resurrection but Aliyah back into the Land of Israel.

Coder · Oct 23, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
Soul is not a spirit. Soul is the combination of body with the breath of life. If you read Genesis 2:7, when the Lord formed man from the dust of the earth, He breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. To become is to be, not to have. So, we don't have souls; we are souls. When we die, the body goes back to the dust and the breath of life aka
the spirit goes back to God Who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) To speak of the breath of life as a
spirit is an euphemism.

Very interesting. Yes, I have come to think of what people refer to as our "soul" more as God's conception of us that God holds in existence ("in His hands"). The breath of life that God gives us is related to His Conception of us IMO. Jesus indicated that His Spirit was returning to God's "hands". Luke 23:46 I find it very interesting that this Christian Scripture passage is right in line with Jewish beliefs as taught by Ben here.

Coder · Oct 23, 2016

shava said:
...and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I even think "return" is conceptual/rhetorical because even on earth I believe that God holds our "spirit"/"conception"/"breath of life" in His "hands".

Ben Avraham · Oct 24, 2016

Coder said:
Very interesting. Yes, I have come to think of what people refer to as our "soul" more as God's conception of us that God holds in existence ("in His hands"). The breath of life that God gives us is related to His Conception of us IMO. Jesus indicated that His Spirit was returning to God's "hands". Luke 23:46 I find it very interesting that this Christian Scripture passage is right in line with Jewish beliefs as taught by Ben here.

If you remember, I said just above that the reference to the breath of life as a spirit was an euphemism because of the way it got into the the nostrils of man by God Himself but, if you ask me, there is no difference between the breath of life in man and that of the irrational animal. Again, the euphemism that the breath of life aka a spirit goes back to God Who gave it, is only to remind us through an euphemism that what we got from the Lord, goes back to the Lord. The reality is that the breath of life goes with the wind. Why? Because, who knows that a man's breath of life goes upward and that of a beast down into the earth? Both go to the same place; both came from dust and both return to dust. That's the truth. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)

Kirran · Oct 24, 2016

Did you know shava means corpse in Sanskrit? Or maybe Hindi, I am unclear.

There is a saying 'Shiva without Shakti is Shava.'

interminable · Oct 24, 2016

الزمر
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die [He takes] during their sleep. Then He keeps those for which He has decreed death and releases the others for a specified term. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. (42)

james2ko · Oct 24, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
To understand Ezekiel 37:12, you must read Isaiah 53:8,9. When the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. The text is not at all speaking about bodily resurrection but Aliyah back into the Land of Israel.

The details in the immediate context, which takes precedence over any "perceived" broader context, tells us this is undoubtedly a bodily resurrection:

Eze 37:3 Then He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones become living people again?" "O Sovereign LORD," I replied, "You alone know the answer to that."
Eze 37:4 Then He said to me, "Speak a prophetic message to these bones and say, 'Dry bones, listen to the word of the LORD!
Eze 37:5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Look! I am going to put breath into you and make you live again!
Eze 37:6 I will put flesh and muscles on you and cover you with skin. I will put breath into you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"
Eze 37:7 So I spoke this message, just as He told me. Suddenly as I spoke, there was a rattling noise all across the valley. The bones of each body came together and attached themselves as complete skeletons.
Eze 37:8 Then as I watched, muscles and flesh formed over the bones. Then skin formed to cover their bodies, but they still had no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then He said to me, "Speak a prophetic message to the winds, son of man. Speak a prophetic message and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, O breath, from the four winds! Breathe into these dead bodies so they may live again.'"

Ben Avraham · Oct 25, 2016

james2ko said:
The details in the immediate context, which takes precedence over any "perceived" broader context, tells us this is undoubtedly a bodily resurrection:

Eze 37:3 Then He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones become living people again?" "O Sovereign LORD," I replied, "You alone know the answer to that."
Eze 37:4 Then He said to me, "Speak a prophetic message to these bones and say, 'Dry bones, listen to the word of the LORD!
Eze 37:5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Look! I am going to put breath into you and make you live again!
Eze 37:6 I will put flesh and muscles on you and cover you with skin. I will put breath into you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"
Eze 37:7 So I spoke this message, just as He told me. Suddenly as I spoke, there was a rattling noise all across the valley. The bones of each body came together and attached themselves as complete skeletons.
Eze 37:8 Then as I watched, muscles and flesh formed over the bones. Then skin formed to cover their bodies, but they still had no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then He said to me, "Speak a prophetic message to the winds, son of man. Speak a prophetic message and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, O breath, from the four winds! Breathe into these dead bodies so they may live again.'"

It couldn't be because it would stand as a contradiction to the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach that once dead, no one can ever return from the grave: II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalms 49:12;20; etc. Now, as the details within the context are concerned, you must read about prophetical visions and dreams. The interpretation cannot be literal. The "Dry Bones" for instance, in Ezekiel 37 was a vision of Ezekiel about the Jews in exile. For instance, if you read Ezekiel 37:11, you will understand that Ezekiel was said in the vision that the Dry Bones were the whole House of Israel. They, the Jews in exile would respond by saying, "Our bones are dried up; our hope is gone; we are doomed." How could such consciousness be real in the dead! That's the problem with Christians. They have no expertise on metaphorical language.

Ben Avraham · Oct 25, 2016

interminable said:
الزمر
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die [He takes] during their sleep. Then He keeps those for which He has decreed death and releases the others for a specified term. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. (42)

Too legendary to be Jewish.

james2ko · Oct 25, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
It couldn't be because it would stand as a contradiction to the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach that once dead, no one can ever return from the grave: II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalms 49:12;20; etc. Now, as the details within the context are concerned, you must read about prophetical visions and dreams. The interpretation cannot be literal. The "Dry Bones" for instance, in Ezekiel 37 was a vision of Ezekiel about the Jews in exile. For instance, if you read Ezekiel 37:11, you will understand that Ezekiel was said in the vision that the Dry Bones were the whole House of Israel. They, the Jews in exile would respond by saying, "Our bones are dried up; our hope is gone; we are doomed." How could such consciousness be real in the dead! That's the problem with Christians. They have no expertise on metaphorical language.

The problem with the Jews is they don't know how to discern between idiomatic and literal language often intermingled in scripture. Let's take a further look a the context of Eze 37:

Eze 37:24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

David, being long dead when this was written, will be resurrected and once again be king over the two sticks--12 tribes of Israel-spoken of in the previous verses, who were also resurrected. An obvious indication the previous verses were referring to a future resurrection. This is further confirmed by Psalms 16:10, "For You will not leave my soul in sheol, Nor will You allow Your holy one to see corruption."

Fully complementing, not contradicting, a resurrection being taught in the Tanach.

Ben Avraham · Oct 26, 2016

james2ko said:
The problem with the Jews is they don't know how to discern between idiomatic and literal language often intermingled in scripture. Let's take a further look a the context of Eze 37:

Eze 37:24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

David, being long dead when this was written, will be resurrected and once again be king over the two sticks--12 tribes of Israel-spoken of in the previous verses, who were also resurrected. An obvious indication the previous verses were referring to a future resurrection. This is further confirmed by Psalms 16:10, "For You will not leave my soul in sheol, Nor will You allow Your holy one to see corruption."

Fully complementing, not contradicting, a resurrection being taught in the Tanach.

See what I mean! You are already proposing a problem of literality. You can't see that Judah which was promised to David by the Lord, that His Tribe would be as a lamp in Jerusalem forever when it means that, every time David is mentioned by name after he has passed away, is a reference to Judah his Tribe to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (I Kings 11:36) After Israel the Ten Tribes fell to Assyria, David aka Judah has remained as the only people with a shepherd only. And this has remained so to this day. (Ezekiel 37:22)

Now, as bodily resurrection is concerned, there is nothing at all to do with. It is taught nowhere in the Tanach. The opposite is rather true that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. Resurrection in the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, is supposed to be understood metaphorically, not bodily. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, for Jews to be forced into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the Land of the Living and graves are assigned to us among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. That's the case with Ezekiel 37:12. Bodily resurrection is an alien doctrine in Judaism. There is no such a thing in the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. The prayer of David in Psalms 16:10 was a prayer not to fall in battle and die. But David knew only too well that, once dead, no one will ever return from Sheol aka the grave. (II Samuel. 12:23)

Now, go ahead and try again, because I have proved to you that there is no reference to bodily resurrection in the Tanach. Before you try though, please read II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; and Psalms 49:12,20.

Coder · Oct 26, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
You can't see that Judah which was promised to David by the Lord, that His Tribe would be as a lamp in Jerusalem forever when it means that, every time David is mentioned by name after he has passed away, is a reference to Judah his Tribe to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (I Kings 11:36) After Israel the Ten Tribes fell to Assyria, David aka Judah has remained as the only people with a shepherd only. And this has remained so to this day. (Ezekiel 37:22)

I can see that context is so important. In math, entire equations are represented by a symbol. I can see that "David" could often mean the "House of David" in Scripture. (David is such an important figure in Judaism.) If someone tells you that they are going to St. Augustine, immediately you know that they are going to St. Augustine Florida although the literal meaning would be that you are actually going to see the Saint himself.

james2ko · Oct 27, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
See what I mean! You are already proposing a problem of literality. You can't see that Judah which was promised to David by the Lord, that His Tribe would be as a lamp in Jerusalem forever when it means that, every time David is mentioned by name after he has passed away, is a reference to Judah his Tribe to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (I Kings 11:36) After Israel the Ten Tribes fell to Assyria, David aka Judah has remained as the only people with a shepherd only. And this has remained so to this day. (Ezekiel 37:22)

1 See what I mean! This is the problem with metaphors. We can get too creative by adding to the word something that isn't there. In Eze 37, David was promised all twelve tribes, not just one tribe (Ezeiel 37:22-24).

David is not Judah. David is a descendant of Judah. When the bible mentions Judah, it refers to either someone by that name, the tribe, or the two tribes that make up the house of Judah. Any other designation or application is engaging in eisegesis.

Now, as bodily resurrection is concerned, there is nothing at all to do with. It is taught nowhere in the Tanach. The opposite is rather true that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. Resurrection in the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, is supposed to be understood metaphorically, not bodily.

2 The opposite is rather false. Speaking of the gospel of Jesus, both the Old and New Testaments are full of bodily, not metaphorical, resurrections:

1) 2 Kings 17:17-24 . . Elijah raises the widow's son.

2) 2 Kings 4:18-37. Elisha raises the Shunammite's son.

3) 2 Kings 13:20-21. Dead man revives when cast into Elisha's grave and lands upon his bones.

4) Matthew 27:52-53. The saints that arose at the time of Christ's death.

5) Luke 7:11-17. A dead man -

6) Luke 8:49-56. Ruler of the synagogue's daughter brought back to life.

7) John 11:1-46. Lazarus, friend of Jesus, was sick and eventually died. Jesus came after he had already been dead four days (verse 17) and raised him up.

Note that this account apparently speaks of the Last Great Day (verses 23-24).

8) Acts 9:36-42. Dorcas, a disciple, fell sick and died. Peter

9) Acts 20:9-12. Paul visits the city of T roas for seven days. While there he preached at length on one occasion. A young man named Eutychus fell from a window when he dozed and was found dead (verse 9). Paul embraced him and the man then revived.

If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, for Jews to be forced into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the Land of the Living and graves are assigned to us among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. That's the case with Ezekiel 37:12. Bodily resurrection is an alien doctrine in Judaism. There is no such a thing in the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

3 Isaiah 53 is clearly a prophecy about one person--Messiah, not the two tribes of the house of Judah--Jews--as you propose. According to the context of the prophecy, the servant of the Lord would not only suffer terrible disfigurement and suffering but would then be highly exalted, to the point that kings would stand in awe of him and bow down to him( Isaiah 52:13–15). While this applies perfectly to the two comings of Jesus the Messiah, no such exaltation has taken place for our people Israel.

The prayer of David in Psalms 16:10 was a prayer not to fall in battle and die. But David knew only too well that, once dead, no one will ever return from Sheol aka the grave. (2 Samuel. 12:23)

4 In 2 Samuel 12:23, David never said no one will ever return from the grave. He specifically stated "he" (first person) can't bring the baby back from the dead. In Psa 16:10, David states, "You", speaking of God in the second person, will not leave my (first person) nephesh in the grave (sheol). David's indication is clear. He can't resurrect anyone from the dead via his actions, but God certainly can.

please read 2 Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; and Psalms 49:12,20.

5 We’ve already covered 2 Sa 12:23. Lets take a closer look at the rest of your passages:

Isaiah 26:14- Enemies of God and enemies of His people(vs 11) will not live and will not rise. The context of Isaiah 26:19 refers to Israel (Isaiah 26:15) who will live again and rise, exemplified in Ezekiel 37! Isaiah was simply making a comparison between the two.

Job 7:9-Yet Job also states:

Job 19:25-26 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,

There are no contradictions in scripture so we must take a closer look at your text. Notice the context of your verse tells us where the one who goes down to the grave will never come up or return to-- He shall never return to his house, nor shall his place know him anymore (Job 7:10). This is true. By the time he (Job) gets resurrected, his home will be long gone.

Psa 49:12-- Yes. Those who trust in their wealth (vs 6) and are foolish (vs 13) will die like the beasts. But the upright God will redeem from the power of the grave (vs 14-15).

Now, go ahead and try again, because I have proved to you that there is no reference to bodily resurrection in the Tanach. Before you try though,

6 Unfortunately, the only thing you've proven is your creativity and ability to interpret out of context.

Ben Avraham · Oct 28, 2016

james2ko said:
1 See what I mean! This is the problem with metaphors. We can get too creative by adding to the word something that isn't there. In Eze 37, David was promised all twelve tribes, not just one tribe (Ezeiel 37:22-24).

Click to expand...

There is nothing in Ezekiel 37 about God promising David the 12 tribes.

David is not Judah. David is a descendant of Judah. When the bible mentions Judah, it refers to either someone by that name, the tribe, or the two tribes that make up the house of Judah. Any other designation or application is engaging in eisegesis.

Click to expand...

The mention of David when talking about Judah is a reference to his Tribe promise that it would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

2 The opposite is rather false. Speaking of the gospel of Jesus, both the Old and New Testaments are full of bodily, not metaphorical, resurrections:

Click to expand...

I have nothing agains bodily resurrection in the NT as long as it stays in the NT. Bodily resurrection was according to the gospel of Paul if you read II Timothy 2:8.

1) 2 Kings 17:17-24 . . Elijah raises the widow's son. 2) 2 Kings 4:18-37. Elisha raises the Shunammite's son. 3) 2 Kings 13:20-21. Dead man revives when cast into Elisha's grave and lands upon his bones.

Click to expand...

In the cases of Elijah and Elisha they were cases of resuscitation due to sun-stroke which for the peasants, it was no different from being dead. Now, in the case of the dead man's revival never happened literally it was added to the chronicles of prophets as an euphemism akin to homage paid to the great man Elisha was.

4) Matthew 27:52-53. The saints that arose at the time of Christ's death. 5) Luke 7:11-17. A dead man -

Click to expand...

I am already aware that bodily resurrection is a Christian doctrine. So, I have nothing to say. (II Timothy 2:8)

4 In 2 Samuel 12:23, David never said no one will ever return from the grave. He specifically stated "he" (first person) can't bring the baby back from the dead. In Psa 16:10, David states, "You", speaking of God in the second person, will not leave my (first person) nephesh in the grave (sheol). David's indication is clear. He can't resurrect anyone from the dead via his actions, but God certainly can.

Click to expand...

Wrong! "Can I bring him back again?" David asked as a joke to his assistants. The truth of his words is in the following up. "I shall go to him; he will never come back to me."

6) Luke 8:49-56. Ruler of the synagogue's daughter brought back to life. 7) John 11:1-46. Lazarus, friend of Jesus, was sick and eventually died. Jesus came after he had already been dead four days (verse 17) and raised him up. Note that this account apparently speaks of the Last Great Day (verses 23-24).

Click to expand...

The case of Lazarus must have been a parable

8) Acts 9:36-42. Dorcas, a disciple, fell sick and died. Petersuffering but would then be highly exalted, to the point that kings would stand in awe of him and bow down to him( Isaiah 52:13–15). While this applies perfectly to the two comings of Jesus the Messiah, no such exaltation has taken place for our people Israel. 5 We’ve already covered 2 Sa 12:23. Lets take a closer look at the rest of your passages:

Click to expand...

I don't have to comment against a Christian doctrine as long as it does not involve a Jew who never became a Christian.

Isaiah 26:14- Enemies of God and enemies of His people(vs 11) will not live and will not rise. The context of Isaiah 26:19

Click to expand...

Isaiah 26:19 is the same as Ezekiel 37:12 about his vision of the "Dry Bones" aka the Jews in exile leaving the exile and returning to the Land of Israel.

9) Acts 20:9-12. Paul visits the city of T roas for seven days. While there he preached at length on one occasion. A young man named Eutychus fell from a window when he dozed and was found dead (verse 9). Paul embraced him and the man then revived.

Click to expand...

That's resurrection according to Paul. Christian stuff. So, no need of my comment.

3 Isaiah 53 is clearly a prophecy about one person--Messiah, not the two tribes of the house of Judah--Jews--as you propose. According to the context of the prophecy, the servant of the Lord would not only suffer terrible disfigurement and refers to Israel (Isaiah 26:15) who will live again and rise, exemplified in Ezekiel 37! Isaiah was simply making a comparison between the two.

Click to expand...

The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is mentioned by name in Israel 41:8,9 and 44:1,2, 21 as being Israel the People. Then, if you want in the plural, you can read Psalm 44:11-24. That's the same servant in the plural.

Job 7:9-Yet Job also states Job 19:25-26 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, There are no contradictions in scripture so we must take a closer look at your text. Notice the context of your verse tells us where the one who goes down to the grave will never come up or return to-- He shall never return to his house, nor shall his place know him anymore (Job 7:10). This is true. By the time he (Job) gets resurrected, his home will be long gone.

Click to expand...

There is nothing about bodily resurrection in the book of Job. In my flesh I'll see God. It means that still alive then cured of his skin disease he would return to his relation with God. In fact, every thing got back as it was.

Psa 49:12-- Yes. Those who trust in their wealth (vs 6) and are foolish (vs 13) will die like the beasts. But the upright God will redeem from the power of the grave (vs 14-15).

Click to expand...

It does not help to distort the text by adding your words or the words of Paul.

Ben Avraham · Oct 28, 2016

Coder said:
I can see that context is so important. In math, entire equations are represented by a symbol. I can see that "David" could often mean the "House of David" in Scripture. (David is such an important figure in Judaism.) If someone tells you that they are going to St. Augustine, immediately you know that they are going to St. Augustine Florida although the literal meaning would be that you are actually going to see the Saint himself.

I am glad you got point of the message so well.

james2ko · Oct 29, 2016

Ben Avraham said:
There is nothing in Ezekiel 37 about God promising David the 12 tribes.

1. Nothing?

Eze 37:24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

Who is the "them" which David (singular--one shepherd--Ezekiel 34:23-24--, not shepherds--Ezekiel 34:2) will be king over?

Eze 37:19 say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand." '
Eze 37:21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Eze 37:22 and I will make them [12 tribes] one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

David shall be king over all twelve 12 tribes. Do you see what happens when verses are read out of context?

The mention of David when talking about Judah is a reference to his Tribe promise that it would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

2. 1 Kings 11:36 is merely telling us someone from David's line will always rule over Jerusalem. This is confirmed by 1 Kings 15:4:

Nevertheless for David's sake the LORD his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, by setting up his son after him and by establishing Jerusalem;

It has nothing to do with David being Judah, but everything to do with God keeping His promise to David's ancestor Judah (Genesis 49:10).

I have nothing against bodily resurrection in the NT as long as it stays in the NT. Bodily resurrection was according to the gospel of Paul if you read II Timothy 2:8.

3. There was not NT when the gospel writers put pen to paper. The only resurrections the gospel writers could refer back to were the ones they witnessed (directly or indirectly) or the ones performed in the OT. It's no wonder some time after witnessing the resurrection in Luk 7, they thought Christ was Elijah. (Matthew 16:13-14)

In the cases of Elijah and Elisha they were cases of resuscitation due to sun-stroke which for the peasants, it was no different from being dead.

4. 1 Kings 17:17--"his breath (ruach) left him". When ruach leaves a man, he dies (Psalms 104:29), Elijah confirmed the son was "mooth" [dead] (vs 20), his nephesh (body) lives again (vs 21).

2 Kings 4:20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died [mooth].

No indication of sunstrokes or euphemisms. Those premises are being jammed into the text in order to mitigate the obvious.

I am already aware that bodily resurrection is a Christian doctrine. So, I have nothing to say. (II Timothy 2:8)

5. Christianity did not exist until "after" Christ's death. When the resurrection of the dead man in Luke 7:15 occurred, it was still exclusively a Jewish sect. One of the main reasons the people perceived Christ was Elijah (Mar 8:28) was due to the resurrection of the man in Luke 7:15. This act reminded the Jews of the resurrection back to life performed by Elijah in their scriptures. In other words, it was still a Jewish doctrine back in the first century.

Wrong! "Can I bring him back again?" David asked as a joke to his assistants. The truth of his words is in the following up. "I shall go to him; he will never come back to me."

6. That is your sages forced interpretation of the text. Nothing in the text or the grammar of 2 Samuel 12:23 or Psalms 16:10 even remotely implicates this.

The case of Lazarus must have been a parable

6a. Christ's parables were announced (Matthew 13:18,24;31;33;21:33;24:32:Mark 4:13,30; 7:17;12:12;Luk 5:36; 6:39; Luk 8:11; 12:16,41:13:6, and many more) and He always explained the meaning to his disciples (Mark 4:34). No such criteria exist in the account of Lazarus. All of the other events in the gospels, including the resurrection of Lazarus after four days in the grave, were literal.

Isaiah 26:19 is the same as Ezekiel 37:12 about his vision of the "Dry Bones" aka the Jews in exile leaving the exile and returning to the Land of Israel.

7. It is abundantly clear Isaiah is making a comparison between God and His people's enemies who will not be resurrected (Isa 26:14) and His righteous people who will (Isaiah 26:15,19) as exemplified in Ezekiel 37.

The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is mentioned by name in Israel 41:8,9 and 44:1,2, 21 as being Israel the People. Then, if you want in the plural, you can read Psalm 44:11-24. That's the same servant in the plural.

8. Throughout Isaiah 52:13–53:12, the servant is depicted as completely righteous yet lowly and afflicted, despised and rejected (before his final exaltation). This cannot possibly apply to the people of Israel as a nation; otherwise, the Torah cannot be true. For the Torah plainly promises, again and again, that if, as a nation, we live righteously before God, we will be the head and not the tail, lifted high and not brought low, blessed and not afflicted, revered and not rejected. This is indisputably clear from Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. If the people of Israel were righteous, as described in Isaiah 53, then they would be blessed and not cursed. This is referring to one individual as some of the prominent Rabbis conclude.

It does not help to distort the text by adding your words or the words of Paul.

Psa 49:6 Those who trust in their wealth And boast in the multitude of their riches, NKJ
Psa 49:13 This is the way of those who are foolish, And of their posterity who approve their sayings. Selah NKJ
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling.
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah

9. God will redeem David's upright soul from the grave. The foolish and those who trust in their wealth will not. Those words were straight from the scriptures. No addition necessary. Paul??? What in the world does Paul have to do with this Psalm?

There is nothing about bodily resurrection in the book of Job. In my flesh I'll see God. It means that still alive then cured of his skin disease he would return to his relation with God. In fact, every thing got back as it was.

10.. Only if interpreted in isolation from the examples in the Tanach of bodily resurrections. You isolate a verse and contrive an interpretation, based on misinterpretations of other passages and proper name assignments. This leads to a gross misunderstanding of the text, as you conclusively demonstrated in points 1 and 2 above.

Muffled · Oct 29, 2016

rusra02 said:
The spirit is the life force in both animals and humans, IMO. (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20) I believe the spirit returns to God in the sense that any future life for the dead person now rests with God, who can return the person to life again, or not.

I don't believe "breath" in that verse is referring to spirit but simply that living beings need to breathe to live.

rusra02 · Oct 29, 2016

Muffled said:
I don't believe "breath" in that verse is referring to spirit but simply that living beings need to breathe to live.

Some translations use the word "spirit" rather than "breath" in Eccl. 3:19
The spirit or life force is sustained by breathing, IMO.

Tumah · Oct 29, 2016

moorea944 said:
The Hebrew word for "spirit" in this verse means breath. That's all. Just like "soul" means a living, breathing frame or person, someone who is alive. We are not given a soul, we are a soul. Same with spirit. Spirit, like soul, can also be written in many different ways. But never something that is given us. Spirit can also be written as mind or a way of thinking too.

No its not. Its the word "RUaḤ". This word means "wind" or "spirit". As in the word "RUaḤ HaQoDeSH", "Holy Spirit".

Do humans have a spirit?

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