• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Problem of Perfection

Howdy peeps. Well, perfection is what I did my undergraduate thesis on. More specifically, I dealt with Christ's controversial commandment, "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." I wanted to know how everyone else deals with this commandment, as a Christian or how you would approach a similar commandment in any other religions.

Usually, this specific commandment is either met with scoffing, or it's simply ignored. Others, under the Lutheran influence, have claimed that Christ gave this commandment merely to underscore that we could never acheive it. However, this makes no sense to me. I've taken a stab at the concept of perfection in my thesis and I'll post my theory on it, but first I wanted to see what a couple of you have to say about.

Is it impossible? If so why did Christ tell us to do it in the first place? :confused:

Dee
 
sonflour_2001 said:
Howdy peeps. Well, perfection is what I did my undergraduate thesis on. More specifically, I dealt with Christ's controversial commandment, "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." I wanted to know how everyone else deals with this commandment, as a Christian or how you would approach a similar commandment in any other religions.

Usually, this specific commandment is either met with scoffing, or it's simply ignored. Others, under the Lutheran influence, have claimed that Christ gave this commandment merely to underscore that we could never acheive it. However, this makes no sense to me. I've taken a stab at the concept of perfection in my thesis and I'll post my theory on it, but first I wanted to see what a couple of you have to say about.

Is it impossible? If so why did Christ tell us to do it in the first place? :confused:

Dee

well...what can i tell you, i believe that what we ought to do is to see the perfection on everything; love everything, accept everything as part of a perfect existence that we can not understand...so maybe jesus wanted us to see the perfection upon all the things....uhmm as i said before i don't have the faintest idea of anything, is just my opinion:eek:
 
On the book siddartha of Herman Hesse, Buddha talks about perfection, i think is very good point of view:

The world, my friend Govinda, is not imperfect, or on a slow path towards perfection: no, it is perfect in every moment, all sin already carries the divine forgiveness in itself, all small children already have the old person in themselves, all infants already have death, all dying people the eternal life....Therefore, I see whatever exists as good, death is to me like life, sin like holiness, wisdom like foolishness, everything has to be as it is, everything only requires my consent, only my willingness, my loving understanding, to be good for me, to do nothing but work for my benefit, to be unable to ever harm me.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I would consider the notion of perfection to be, at least in most instances, an illusion created by our paying attention to only a single aspect, or at most a few aspects, of something, and not seeing those aspects that are "imperfect".
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
The LDS belief is that this is a direct commandment. We are literally to become perfect. Of course, we fall short, but that's where Christ comes in.

You may have heard that we believe we can become like God. This is why. God is perfect and he commands us to be like him...perfect. This doesn't mean we become God, it means we become perfect like him.

For the computer geeks (which I am not), I heard this example. Imagine that God is the mainframe. Now imagine that there are different levels of security that are able to access different information from the mainframe. Eventually one gains enough trust that one in authority can give him or her the passwords or tokens (a word used by networkers) to access the mainframe directly. This means the person has complete access to the mainframe's information, but they are not the mainframe.

Similarly, we can become perfect like God, but we do not become God.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
I've always looked at this command as being geared toward motivation. To use perfect or pure motives in all that we do....or try to do. Be perfect with intentions. What else could he ask of us? We're flawed human beings and can never achieve perfection in actions so the next best thing is to strive for perfection in motive. And of course we'll fail at that as well but we should strive for it.

At least that's my opinion on it. :)
 

kai

ragamuffin
Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect.
for me, i dont even understand it , at first glance it looks ike a question, second glance it looks impossible , no i dont understand it
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Buttercup said:
I've always looked at this command as being geared toward motivation. To use perfect or pure motives in all that we do....or try to do. Be perfect with intentions. What else could he ask of us? We're flawed human beings and can never achieve perfection in actions so the next best thing is to strive for perfection in motive. And of course we'll fail at that as well but we should strive for it.

At least that's my opinion on it. :)

What if we act out of agape or altruistic love? Is that a certain kind of perfection then?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on my post above? As an egotistical maniac, I was hoping endless praise of how much sense my post makes would descend upon me like the dew of a warm spring morning.

haha
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
What if we act out of agape or altruistic love? Is that a certain kind of perfection then?
Sure....and I simply mean that we can't gain perfection in actions 100% of the time. Sometimes we act with perfect agape love, but not always. To wrap myself around that command, I have to look at it as striving for perfection of motive. Otherwise I would lose heart because I know I can never be perfect all the time. But, if I strive for it....sometimes I will be perfect in action.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Its all the interpretation that does my head in , didnt any one at the time look up and say what do you mean by that,every thing has to be interpreted this way and that way,its obviuosly not for the mundane,i have to go and look up agape love now
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
nutshell said:
The LDS belief is that this is a direct commandment. We are literally to become perfect. Of course, we fall short, but that's where Christ comes in.

You may have heard that we believe we can become like God. This is why. God is perfect and he commands us to be like him...perfect. This doesn't mean we become God, it means we become perfect like him.

For the computer geeks (which I am not), I heard this example. Imagine that God is the mainframe. Now imagine that there are different levels of security that are able to access different information from the mainframe. Eventually one gains enough trust that one in authority can give him or her the passwords or tokens (a word used by networkers) to access the mainframe directly. This means the person has complete access to the mainframe's information, but they are not the mainframe.

Similarly, we can become perfect like God, but we do not become God.

I'm not LDS but traditional Protestants believe that if you accept Christ's atoning works on the cross as cleansing from sin then you do become perfect like Christ. In the eyes of God if you believe in and follow Christ, you are perfect before him. Is that what you're getting at?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Buttercup said:
I'm not LDS but traditional Protestants believe that if you accept Christ's atoning works on the cross as cleansing from sin then you do become perfect like Christ. In the eyes of God if you believe in and follow Christ, you are perfect before him. Is that what you're getting at?

Yes, but I would extend it to say not just perfect before him, but perfect like him.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Buttercup the wise said:
sometimes I will be perfect in action.

Moments like that are rare for me, but when they do happen, they typically have an immense, intrinsic beauty.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
nutshell said:
Yes, but I would extend it to say not just perfect before him, but perfect like him.
Yes, that's how I've always understood it to be as well. Hard to imagine isn't it?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
My selection of words were to vague and I found myself typing longer then I like to. So I'm just gonna wing this one and give the Catholic Encyclopedia answer. :eek:

CHRISTIAN PERFECTION

Christian perfection is the supernatural or spiritual union with God which is possible of attainment in this life, and which may be called relative perfection, compatible with the absence of beatitude, and the presence of human miseries, rebellious passions, and even venial sins to which a just man is liable without a special grace and privilege of God. This perfection consists in charity, in the degree in which it is attainable in this life (Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:14; 1 Corinthians 12:31, and 13:13). This is the universal teaching of the Fathers and of theologians. Charity unites the soul with God as its supernatural end, and removes from the soul all that is opposed to that union. "God is charity; and he that abideth in charity abideth in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16). Suarez explains that perfection can be attributed to charity in three ways: (1) substantially or essentially, because the essence of union with God consists in charity for the habit as well as for the endeavour or pursuit of perfection; (2) principally, because it has the chief share in the process of perfection; (3) entirely, for all other virtues necessarily accompany charity and are ordained by it to the supreme end. It is true that faith and hope are prerequisites for perfection in this life, but they do not constitute it, for in heaven, where perfection is complete and absolute, faith and hope no longer remain. The other virtues therefore belong to perfection in a secondary and accidental manner, because charity cannot exist without them and their exercise, but they without charity do not unite the soul supernaturally to God. (Lib. I, De Statu Perfectionis, Cap. iii).

Christian perfection consists not only in the habit of charity, i. e. the possession of sanctifying grace and the constant will of preserving that grace, but also in the pursuit or practice of charity, which means the service of God and withdrawal of ourselves from those things which oppose or impede it. "Be it ever remembered", says Reginald Buckler, "that the perfection of man is determined by his actions, not by his habits as such. Thus a high degree of habitual charity will not suffice to perfect the soul if the habit pass not into act. That is, if it become not operative. For to what purpose does a man possess virtue if he uses it not? He is not virtuous because he can live virtuously but because he does so." (The Perfection of Man by Charity. Ch. vii, p. 77).
The perfection of the soul increases in proportion with the possession of charity. He who possesses the perfection which excludes mortal sin obtains salvation, is united to God, and is said to be just, holy, and perfect. The perfection of charity, which excludes also venial sin and all affections which separate the heart from God, signifies a state of active service of God and of frequent, fervent acts of the love of God. This is the perfect fulfilment of the law (Matthew 22:37), as God is the primary object of charity. The secondary object is our neighbour. This is not limited to necessary and obligatory duties, but extends to friends, strangers, and enemies, and may advance to a heroic degree, leading a man to sacrifice external goods, comforts and life itself for the spiritual welfare of others. This is the charity taught by Christ by word (John 15:13) and example. (See T[SIZE=-2]HEOLOGICAL[/SIZE] V[SIZE=-2]IRTUE OF[/SIZE] L[SIZE=-2]OVE[/SIZE]).
 
Oh wow. I can feel the excitement coursing through me as I respond to you guys. Well, here I go. Without posting all 46 pages of my thesis, I'll give you the highlights of my research and of what it led me to believe on this subject.

1.) I don't think that it is impossible, simply b/c scripture tells us that all things are possible through Christ....yeah you know which verse I'm referring to.

2.) If what Christ commands of us is to be taken seriously, we would need to start by comtemplating what perfection consists of.

3.) Our definition and view of perfection as been derived and heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy, which indicates that any concept of perfect must include it being immutable or unmovable, since any movement can always be movement towards something lesser.

4.) The platonic concept of perfection is okay when it's attributed as being a characteristic of God, but it isn't enough.

5.) Perfection as traditionally defined only accounts for God's absolute nature; however, it fails to take into account his infinite ability to transcend everything.

6.) Thus, we need an understanding of perfection that this open-ended, so as to continuously imply God's infinite transcendence.

7.) Apparently, St. Anselm ran into this problem as well when he was making his Ontological argument for the existence of God. Thus, instead of defining God as the best, he too felt the need to opt for a more open-ended definition such as, "that which nothing greater can be thought."

8.) This is where St. Gregory of Nyssa comes into my research. His concept of perfection for humanity includes "epektasis" which includes perfection as being, the constant and continuous effort, so that perfection no longer merely entails the platonic concept of stability, but also utilizes continuous ever towards that which is better.

9.) Such a concept of perfection connects us to God where Jesus commanded us to be perfect just like God, because God's perfection is such that he conceptually continuous to transcend any definition, or understanding of him. Likewise, within the very process of constant improvement or transcendence above past mistakesm we constantly obtain perfection.

10.) The only catch is that you cannot stop. Egos want us to stop and take inventory of all we have accomplished, so that we can feed our pride and lazily point our past accomplishments as evidence that we don't need to do anything else. Thus we form the attitude, "this is enough". However, much like God is always better than what we could possibly articulate about him, we can always do better than what we initally claim is our best. So we mustn't stop. For instance, as soon as you stop doing all the things you do that make you humble and say, "I'm humble", you no longer are. Thus, once you get off the continuous path of perfection to arrogantly recall your success, you no longer exude it.

11.) So the conclusion is to simply never give up. You don't know how weirded out I was when I was writing this thesis and this simple advice developed from my research. I mean people tell you this all the time, but you never really take it seriously, right? However, I guess there's something to it after all. So never give up, going from "glory to glory" and the road itself will be your reward of perfection..."even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Confusing? I know there are probably a lot problems I overlooked in this philosophy, but challenges help me learn so fire away! :run:What?! I never said I had to be here when you did!
I'll post the link to my thesis whenever I can find it in my e-mailbox.

Dee


</IMG>
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Every reply here so far (including the thesis overview), has stressed the work and state of the individual. No has mentioned the perfection of the Body. (Since it's Christ's comment, I'm assuming Christ's Body -- the Church). No one has mentioned that perfection might be a state that humanity reaches together, and that only together can perfection be reached.

The Body -- the Church -- is the exemplar of that perfection. "We, who are many, are one Body, for we all share one Bread, one Cup." I think we should be striving together to realize the truth that we are truly one people.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Sonflour,

I'd second Victor's post and, in addition, add in the concept of Theosis. I'm not sure whether you are familiar with this doctrine but as you appear familiar with St. Gregory of Nyssa's works, you may well be. I agree totally that being perfect is a process, and one which never stops. We become more and more Christ like through living the faith until, in union with God we gain by grace what is God's by nature. If you're at all familiar with Orthodoxy outside of the works of St. Gregory of Nyssa, and especially if you are familiar with Orthodox Incarnational soteriology, then none of this should sound too unexpected to you, seeing as I am an Orthodox Christian.
 
sonflour_2001 said:
Oh wow. I can feel the excitement coursing through me as I respond to you guys. Well, here I go. Without posting all 46 pages of my thesis, I'll give you the highlights of my research and of what it led me to believe on this subject.

1.) I don't think that it is impossible, simply b/c scripture tells us that all things are possible through Christ....yeah you know which verse I'm referring to.

2.) If what Christ commands of us is to be taken seriously, we would need to start by comtemplating what perfection consists of.

3.) Our definition and view of perfection as been derived and heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy, which indicates that any concept of perfect must include it being immutable or unmovable, since any movement can always be movement towards something lesser.

4.) The platonic concept of perfection is okay when it's attributed as being a characteristic of God, but it isn't enough.

5.) Perfection as traditionally defined only accounts for God's absolute nature; however, it fails to take into account his infinite ability to transcend everything.

6.) Thus, we need an understanding of perfection that this open-ended, so as to continuously imply God's infinite transcendence.

7.) Apparently, St. Anselm ran into this problem as well when he was making his Ontological argument for the existence of God. Thus, instead of defining God as the best, he too felt the need to opt for a more open-ended definition such as, "that which nothing greater can be thought."

8.) This is where St. Gregory of Nyssa comes into my research. His concept of perfection for humanity includes "epektasis" which includes perfection as being, the constant and continuous effort, so that perfection no longer merely entails the platonic concept of stability, but also utilizes continuous ever towards that which is better.

9.) Such a concept of perfection connects us to God where Jesus commanded us to be perfect just like God, because God's perfection is such that he conceptually continuous to transcend any definition, or understanding of him. Likewise, within the very process of constant improvement or transcendence above past mistakesm we constantly obtain perfection.

10.) The only catch is that you cannot stop. Egos want us to stop and take inventory of all we have accomplished, so that we can feed our pride and lazily point our past accomplishments as evidence that we don't need to do anything else. Thus we form the attitude, "this is enough". However, much like God is always better than what we could possibly articulate about him, we can always do better than what we initally claim is our best. So we mustn't stop. For instance, as soon as you stop doing all the things you do that make you humble and say, "I'm humble", you no longer are. Thus, once you get off the continuous path of perfection to arrogantly recall your success, you no longer exude it.

11.) So the conclusion is to simply never give up. You don't know how weirded out I was when I was writing this thesis and this simple advice developed from my research. I mean people tell you this all the time, but you never really take it seriously, right? However, I guess there's something to it after all. So never give up, going from "glory to glory" and the road itself will be your reward of perfection..."even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Confusing? I know there are probably a lot problems I overlooked in this philosophy, but challenges help me learn so fire away! :run:What?! I never said I had to be here when you did!
I'll post the link to my thesis whenever I can find it in my e-mailbox.

Dee


</IMG>



I thought perfection came in simple forms, like a flower, the flower is perfect for what it is, it doesn't need to do more, is god's creation. The flower doen't seek Perfection. As us, humans, should not seek perfection, but be what we are, humans, and love what we are. Pefection will not come for the one who is constantly seeking it.
 
Top