• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Iraq: What would you have done?

So, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Intelligence Council, U.N. inspectors and every intelligence agency but Baghdad inform you that Saddam Hussein is actively pursuing WMD, has a large amount of WMD, has missiles that violate the ranges agreed upon for the ceasefire agreement signed at the end of the first Gulf War (that has been confirmed by the way), and he's shooting at our planes over the No-Fly-Zone on a daily basis. Here's some further reading on what the NIC has to say about our intel on Iraq: http://www.cia.gov/nic/articles_wp_iraq_wmd.htm

As a President who has just witnessed terrorists kill 2,000 Americans in an act of violence forewarned by our under-appreciated intelligence agencies, what actions would you take to prevent a possible future catastrophe with Saddam Hussein? How can you prevent Saddam from, say, invading one of his neighbors, this time with nuclear or biological weapons with which to hold that country hostage? How can you discourage countries like Iran, Libya, and North Korea from pursuing similar strategies?

Here's what I would do: I would go to the U.N. and get inspections going again (why in the world did Clinton allow Saddam to kick the inspectors out in the first place?). I would be as stern in my public statements about Iraq as possible and move troops to reinforce Saudi Arabia so Saddam knows we actually mean it this time. If Saddam didn't start cooperating with weapons inspectors, I would take that as further evidence that he is using a covert system of Denial and Deception (or "D&D") just as he was in the 90's to hide his intentions and his capabilities. Basically he's stalling for time, as he has done for the past decade. I wouldn't let him drag out the process though, I'd try to keep the pressure on. I would send the Secretary of State to the U.N. to try to get another resolution passed by the Security Council, one that gave a specific deadline for Saddam to start fully cooperating with inspectors, after which a coalition mandated by the U.N. would use military force to remove him. If we flex our muscles enough, who knows? Maybe Saddam will start cooperating with inspectors and we can celebrate the diplomatic victory.

I cannot see any reason the countries of the U.N. Security Council would not vote for this (was it the 15th?) resolution...after all, their own intel agencies agreed with the CIA and the NIC's analyses of Iraq's WMD and nuclear programs. Alas prejudice, mistrust, economic and cultural barriers have divided the Western world down the Atlantic--France, Germany, Russia and China voted down this final U.N. resolution. To Saddam and other regimes with aspirations to acquire nuclear/biological weapons, this could have only been seen as confirmation that the U.N. has no real power to enforce its mandates. It would now be clear that the Western world will do anything to avoid an armed conflict--even allow rogue nations to develop WMD.

The large numbers of troops stationed on the border of Iraq cannot remain there indefinitely, as Saudi Arabia and other countries will not tolerate it, and the cost of maintaining those troops is enormous. Action must be taken, and there are two choices: either withdraw the troops, or invade Iraq.

If I witdraw the troops from Iraq's borders, Saddam will have won a clear victory not only for himself but for rogue nations everywhere who will see this as proof that America is a paper tiger. Countries like Libya, Iran, and North Korea would interpret this to mean that if they pursue WMD, America and the rest of the world will back down. If I invade, I have to invade as soon as possible, as the approaching summer will make chem/bio suits very hot and present serious tactical problems for our troops (sandstorms, etc). As President, I would at this time set my own ultimatum and assemble a coalition outside of the U.N. as quickly as possible. If I do not take a firm stance against dictators like Saddam, who will? Certainly not France, Russia, or Germany--that much is clear.

Notice that in the wake of Iraq, relations with other regimes have improved. Iran, Libya, and North Korea have taken positive steps and proved more willing to dismantle their WMD programs than before. This is because they know that crazy S.O.B. Mr Spinkles will oust them faster than you can say "Ayatollah" if it even appears that they are pursuing WMD. In effect, I've avoided armed conflict with several countries by using force on one (not to mention freed millions from an oppressive regime).
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
I honestly can't say I would have known what to do, and that whatever I might have done would have been any better than what was done. (Actually, I can be fairly certain it would have been about ten times worse, me having the military knowledge of your average duck.)
 

Faust

Active Member
(move troops to reinforce Saudi Arabia)

Mr. Sprinkles,
Please see my reply to you in the religious news forum which is directly related to this conversation.
In addition, we were not attacked by Sodom Hussein, we were attacked by Al Qieda headed by Ossama Ben Lauden who listed American troops in Saudi Arabia as one of his primary grievances precipitating his attack on this country.
I would have gone after Al Qieda in Afganistan because Afganistan was facilitating that terrorist organization, and kept my eye on the objective. This would have been enough to convince the world that America was not a "paper tiger" and world support would still be in our favor. Please see the above mentioned post, I think the title is "I would like to elaborate".

Peace,

Faust

Please excuse any misspellings:bonk:
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
I know, I know!!!

I would just say "To hell with what the rest of the world thinks. I'm the biggest baddest butt on the block, so I'll just shoot from the hip and tell everyone else to kiss my tail."

Even the information that his intelligence agency was feeding him had been questioned (by them) prior to his pulling the trigger. Of course, when you are determined to do whatever you want to, you can simply claim later that "no one told me that my information was in doubt - my secretary didn't relay the message to me". This is the same stance his father took in regards to the Iran-Contra scandal when he was VP - "I was out of the room when they talked about that".

Woof,
TVOR
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Isn't one of the problems with Iraq that by being there, and mismanaging the situation, we are creating far more terroists than there would be otherwise?
 

Faust

Active Member
Your right Sunstone,
We are creating a situation that leads the Iraqi people to fear for their way of life and their very existence and that drives fundamentalism, an especially negative form I might add! I think I just gave you some frubals but I'm still trying to figure this dadgum machine out.:eek:
 
Faust said:
(move troops to reinforce Saudi Arabia)

Mr. Sprinkles,
Please see my reply to you in the religious news forum which is directly related to this conversation.
Okay, I will as soon as I have some more free time...I haven't had much time for the forums as of late. :)
Faust said:
In addition, we were not attacked by Sodom Hussein, we were attacked by Al Qieda headed by Ossama Ben Lauden who listed American troops in Saudi Arabia as one of his primary grievances precipitating his attack on this country.
1)Who said Saddam attacked us? The goal is to prevent an attack, not wait for one. 2)It's never a good idea to modify one's policies to accomodate the demands of a terrorist group--that only encourages terrorism.
I would have gone after Al Qieda in Afganistan because Afganistan was facilitating that terrorist organization, and kept my eye on the objective. This would have been enough to convince the world that America was not a "paper tiger" and world support would still be in our favor. Please see the above mentioned post, I think the title is "I would like to elaborate".
While your eye is on the objective, what actions would you take to prevent a similar 9/11 -like catastrophe with Saddam? Would you be comfortable with just sitting back and allowing U.N. inspections to cease in Iraq indefinitely?
 
Whoops, sorry about the double post...I had some more things to say ;)
The Voice of Reason said:
I would just say "To hell with what the rest of the world thinks.
Stop right there, and consider this for a moment. Australia, Poland, Britain, Spain, and many other nations supported military action against Saddam. Also, what exactly did countries like France think about this issue? Why did these countries vote against a U.N. resolution to use force on Saddam if he failed to comply with weapons inspectors?

TVOR said:
Even the information that his intelligence agency was feeding him had been questioned (by them) prior to his pulling the trigger.
Here is what the Vice Chairman of the National Intelligence Council had to say:
Let me be clear: The NIE judged with high confidence that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 km limit imposed by the UN Security Council, and with moderate confidence that Iraq did not have nuclear weapons. These judgments were essentially the same conclusions reached by the United Nations and by a wide array of intelligence services—friendly and unfriendly alike. The only government in the world that claimed that Iraq was not working on, and did not have, biological and chemical weapons or prohibited missile systems was in Baghdad.
I encourage anyone interested to read the rest of the article here: http://www.odci.gov/nic/articles_iraq_wmd.htm

TVOR said:
Of course, when you are determined to do whatever you want to, you can simply claim later that "no one told me that my information was in doubt - my secretary didn't relay the message to me". This is the same stance his father took in regards to the Iran-Contra scandal when he was VP - "I was out of the room when they talked about that".
The information was not in doubt, in fact our intelligence agencies made their judgements on Iraq with high confidence. Perhaps another quote from the NIC would do the trick:
All agencies of the Intelligence Community since 1995 have judged that Iraq retained biological weapons and that the BW program continued. In 1999 we assessed Iraq had revitalized its program. New intelligence acquired in 2000 provided compelling information about Iraq’s ongoing offensive BW activities, describing construction of mobile BW agent production plants—reportedly designed to evade detection—with the potential to turn out several hundred tons of unconcentrated BW agent per year. Thus, it was not a new story in 2002 when all agencies judged in the NIE that Iraq had biological weapons—that it had some lethal and incapacitating BW agents—and was capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax. We judged that most of the key aspects of Iraq’s offensive BW program were more advanced than before the Gulf war.
see: http://www.odci.gov/nic/speeches_DCIstatement.html

Sunstone-- We are seeing a rise in terrorist activity, because international terrorist organizations know that a democratic Middle East with a free press is bad for business. Terrorist organizations are fueled by recruits from countries where there is political oppression, and the West is a scapegoat. But this is a battle we have to fight. In the long run, we are reducing terrorism by cutting it off at its source. Democratic societies tend not to produce international terrorist organizations as oppressive ones do.
 

Faust

Active Member
It appears to me that you mix Saddams oppressive and sadistic regime with terrorist activity outside of his country Mr. Sprinkles.

Saddams Gov. if you can call it that was secular. Getting him and fundamentalist Islamists to cooperate would be a bit like getting Newt Gangretch and Hillary Clinton to conspire to get Ralph Nadder elected.( please excuse my terrible spelling)

I don't believe any amount of debate could get you to change your mind about who you are going to vote for, but as far as the war in Iraq is concerned, I don't believe it is your strongest argument for Mr. Bush's re-election.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Spinkles -

Rather than go back and forth, point by point, let me simply ask you this question:
If you think Bush was right in the pre-emptive attack on Iraq, does that mean you will support him should he decide to attack North Korea and Syria? Why have we not attacked the other dictators of the world, and if we do, are we justified?

As an extension, when do we stop with the pre-emptive strikes? Why not China? They have a communist government and a terrible human rights record - heck - they even have known nuclear capabilities! Surely we must eliminate them as well.

In short, where do the pre-emptive wars end? Are we gonna wipe out all the world governments that are small enough and that do not agree with our political positions?

Just asking,
TVOR
 
Faust said:
It appears to me that you mix Saddams oppressive and sadistic regime with terrorist activity outside of his country Mr. Sprinkles.

Saddams Gov. if you can call it that was secular. Getting him and fundamentalist Islamists to cooperate would be a bit like getting Newt Gangretch and Hillary Clinton to conspire to get Ralph Nadder elected.( please excuse my terrible spelling)
It's okay, we all misspelle things sometymes. ;) My point had nothing to do with Saddam's collaboration with terrorists or lack thereof. My point is that democracy in Iraq will act as a cayalyst for democratic reform in the region, which will lead to less terrorism in the long term.

The Voice of Reason said:
Spinkles -

Rather than go back and forth, point by point, let me simply ask you this question:
If you think Bush was right in the pre-emptive attack on Iraq, does that mean you will support him should he decide to attack North Korea and Syria? Why have we not attacked the other dictators of the world, and if we do, are we justified?
You mean now? No, I would not support it for a number of reasons: 1)Neither Syria nor North Korea is in violation of a ceasefire agreement with the U.N./U.S. 2)The U.N. has not passed fourteen resolutions over the past decade regarding WMD in these countries with which they have been completely incooperative, 3)They have shown a genuine willingness to abandon their WMD ambitions/allow inspectors/crack down on terrorism, given sufficient diplomatic and economic incentives, 4)Unlike Saddam's regime, the governments of Syria and North Korea do not have a history of sudden, unprovoked aggression--nor do they have an expansionist agenda (in other words, they don't wish to acquire WMD to expand their territory but to protect themselves and blackmail the more powerful nations).

TVOR said:
As an extension, when do we stop with the pre-emptive strikes? Why not China? They have a communist government and a terrible human rights record - heck - they even have known nuclear capabilities! Surely we must eliminate them as well.
We currently have good relations with China, and China's international posture right now is not one of expansionism. That that they have nuclear weapons is another reason we should avoid an armed confrontation with China. As I've said, unlike Saddam's regime governments like China can be dealt with in a way that will actually get results without using military force.

TVOR said:
In short, where do the pre-emptive wars end? Are we gonna wipe out all the world governments that are small enough and that do not agree with our political positions?
If insisting that Saddam Hussein not possess or pursue chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons, or not cooperate with inspectors, or build a missile force with a range of over 150km ....if this is a "political position" then yes we should do everything we can to ensure the success of this position.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
So, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Intelligence Council, U.N. inspectors and every intelligence agency but Baghdad inform you that Saddam Hussein is actively pursuing WMD, has a large amount of WMD, has missiles that violate the ranges agreed upon for the ceasefire agreement signed at the end of the first Gulf War (that has been confirmed by the way), and he's shooting at our planes over the No-Fly-Zone on a daily basis. Here's some further reading on what the NIC has to say about our intel on Iraq: http://www.cia.gov/nic/articles_wp_iraq_wmd.htm

Having read a vast amount of literature from both the US and British goverment, the corporate owned media, the BBC and other various non-commercial media sources (indymedia, informationclearinghouse, The Guardian etc) my own personal conclusion is that this statement is pure fantasy. I am indeed inclined to err like every other human, but I find the evidence overwhelming and the silence surrounding what I believe to be resignation-level scandals sickening.

Mr Spinkles, obviously you form the basis of your opinion from what you've read, as I do, and so I would like to clarify my position; this is not intended to be hostile but I do find you to be incredibly (and deliberately) mis-informed. I will get into sources later if you like but I would like to point out that an extremely large number of reports confirm that intelligence agencies in Britain not only new to the contrary what you have stated, but actually mis-interpreted data to paint a false picture. I'll start you with one:Blair's Mass Deception By John Pilger 02/03/04: (Daily Mirror).

Mr_Spinkles said:
As a President who has just witnessed terrorists kill 2,000 Americans in an act of violence forewarned by our under-appreciated intelligence agencies, what actions would you take to prevent a possible future catastrophe with Saddam Hussein? How can you prevent Saddam from, say, invading one of his neighbors, this time with nuclear or biological weapons with which to hold that country hostage? How can you discourage countries like Iran, Libya, and North Korea from pursuing similar strategies?

I'll get to this in a tic.

Mr_Spinkles said:
Here's what I would do: I would go to the U.N. and get inspections going again (why in the world did Clinton allow Saddam to kick the inspectors out in the first place?).

He didn't. Clinton's government removed them for their own safety. The reason - American bombs where on there way and landed the next day. The US had done everything possible to interfere with the process and sabotage the inspections from false reports which wasted valuable time to allegedly placing spies in inspection teams. Iraq on the other hand cooperated. Or so those crazy people involved in independant media would have me believe.


Mr_Spinkles said:
I would be as stern in my public statements about Iraq as possible and move troops to reinforce Saudi Arabia so Saddam knows we actually mean it this time. If Saddam didn't start cooperating with weapons inspectors, I would take that as further evidence that he is using a covert system of Denial and Deception (or "D&D") just as he was in the 90's to hide his intentions and his capabilities. Basically he's stalling for time, as he has done for the past decade. I wouldn't let him drag out the process though, I'd try to keep the pressure on. I would send the Secretary of State to the U.N. to try to get another resolution passed by the Security Council, one that gave a specific deadline for Saddam to start fully cooperating with inspectors, after which a coalition mandated by the U.N. would use military force to remove him. If we flex our muscles enough, who knows? Maybe Saddam will start cooperating with inspectors and we can celebrate the diplomatic victory.

I cannot see any reason the countries of the U.N. Security Council would not vote for this (was it the 15th?) resolution...after all, their own intel agencies agreed with the CIA and the NIC's analyses of Iraq's WMD and nuclear programs. Alas prejudice, mistrust, economic and cultural barriers have divided the Western world down the Atlantic--France, Germany, Russia and China voted down this final U.N. resolution. To Saddam and other regimes with aspirations to acquire nuclear/biological weapons, this could have only been seen as confirmation that the U.N. has no real power to enforce its mandates. It would now be clear that the Western world will do anything to avoid an armed conflict--even allow rogue nations to develop WMD.

The large numbers of troops stationed on the border of Iraq cannot remain there indefinitely, as Saudi Arabia and other countries will not tolerate it, and the cost of maintaining those troops is enormous. Action must be taken, and there are two choices: either withdraw the troops, or invade Iraq.

Or reach a peaceful conclusion, like Iraq attempted but the coalition was not interested in peace it would seem.

Mr_Spinkles said:
As President, I would at this time set my own ultimatum and assemble a coalition outside of the U.N. as quickly as possible. If I do not take a firm stance against dictators like Saddam, who will? Certainly not France, Russia, or Germany--that much is clear.

You mean act out your own will? If no-one esle is interested in Mr Hussein it may well be because he is no threat. Remember his country is in ruins, absolutely savaged by years of sanctions, war, and continued air strikes (did the war ever end anyway?).

Mr_Spinkles said:
Notice that in the wake of Iraq, relations with other regimes have improved. Iran, Libya, and North Korea have taken positive steps and proved more willing to dismantle their WMD programs than before. This is because they know that crazy S.O.B. Mr Spinkles will oust them faster than you can say "Ayatollah" if it even appears that they are pursuing WMD. In effect, I've avoided armed conflict with several countries by using force on one (not to mention freed millions from an oppressive regime).

As usual, I notice, your argument is based on the welfare of the oppressed which I commend.

And my answer to the question:
* First, do my very best to have the brutally cruel sanctions placed on the country removed.
* I would then submit a public apology to the Iraqi people who have suffered as a direct result of my county's actions (provided I was American, although Britain has done its bit)
* Spend some time critically examining the policies that have led terrorists to attack my country. Then change them, and save my fellow citezens from further harm. Further reduce the social conditions that breed terror.
*Denounce Saddam Hussein as a terrorist and despot, make clear my intentions to assist in any democratic revolution undertaken by the Iraqis, and urge the rest of the international community to follow.
*Resign before the business interests who stand to lose billions (including my father if I'm G.W. Bush) have me lynched.
 
truthseekingsoul--- Thank you for your friendly, well-reasoned and direct post! Just letting you know that I did read it, but I haven't had time to respond to it. I'm not ignoring you or anything. The same goes for a couple of other threads where I haven't replied in a while (most of them political threads). So sorry, everyone. :)
 
I have said so much on this issue I really don't feel like writing a lengthy post about it....so I'll just say a few things.

truthseekingsoul-- You refer to my statement as "pure fantasy". Yet, Hans Blix, in his briefing to the U.N. Security Council on February 14, 2003, confirms that Iraq was not cooperating, that they had WMD, that there were vast stockpiles unaccounted for, and that Saddam was not fully cooperating with inspectors. *edit* And that Saddam had missiles with ranges in excess of 150km, all of which violates both the ceasefire agreement of the Gulf War and various U.N. mandates* See: http://www.escwa.org.lb/information/press/un/2003/feb/14.html

Your apology to the Iraqi people, thought the political fallout would be unfortunate, is admirable.

I'm a bit confused on the following:

You say you would assist any democratic revolution undertaken by the Iraqis and urge the international community to follow. Does your assistance to any democratic revolution in Iraq include military assistance? Are you aware that Kurds have been in a state of rebellion from Saddam for some time now, and that Bush sent military forces to assist them and urged the international community to follow?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I'm not convinced assistance needs to take the form of invasion, murder, rape, humiliation, and theft.

I understand your point but I wholeheartedly disagree with the entire escapade that I personally feel blackens the entire west and leaves the whole concept of democracy utterly smeared (yet again). It seems the older I get the more the history of the plutocratic powers is nothing more than the march from massacre to disaster funded entirely by the unknowing citizen.

Likewise I'm tiring of this, it seems we have occupied entirely polarized roles and an agreement is impossible. Thank you for your reply however, I will take it into consideration.
 
All I have to say about this issue is that there were no WMDs when Bush invaded Iraq.....Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and Iraq had nothing to do with Al queda.....and according to the UN Charter....it is absolutely ILLEGAL to wage wars of aggression......as a result G. Bush and his administration have violated international law as Kofi Annan has stated. Funny how Bush tried to use international law to justify this war, then goes about violating it.
 
It's been four years since this thread was started....it's interesting to go back and read it. Looking back, I can see that Jaiket was right: I formed my opinions based on what I read, and I was misinformed. Unfortunately, I still form my opinions based on what I read...

In any case I'm quite humbled by the magnitude of my error on many things, and by all the things surrounding our invasion of Iraq which continue to baffle me.

This is a big reason for me, four years later, to vote for Obama this time around....he was talking about the invasion of Iraq being a strategic distraction from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, about the intelligence on Iraq's WMDs not being compelling, about the potential for a long-drawn Sunni/Shia civil war, when ignoramuses like yours truly were falling for every distortion uttered by the Bush administration.
 

kai

ragamuffin
It's been four years since this thread was started....it's interesting to go back and read it. Looking back, I can see that Jaiket was right: I formed my opinions based on what I read, and I was misinformed. Unfortunately, I still form my opinions based on what I read...

In any case I'm quite humbled by the magnitude of my error on many things, and by all the things surrounding our invasion of Iraq which continue to baffle me.

This is a big reason for me, four years later, to vote for Obama this time around....he was talking about the invasion of Iraq being a strategic distraction from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, about the intelligence on Iraq's WMDs not being compelling, about the potential for a long-drawn Sunni/Shia civil war, when ignoramuses like yours truly were falling for every distortion uttered by the Bush administration.


great isnt it --------------hindsight
 
Top