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The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
As to the nature of Christ, it was that of Adam before the fall. Of course Christ's sacrifice is in harmony with that defined in the Torah, blood spilled as an atonement for sin. Paul was not speaking symbolically when he said that without the spilling of blood there can be no atonement for sin. Therefore, the crucifixion was a literal atonement for ythe sins of anyone who accepts it as a free gift.
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If atonement for sins came through the spilling of blood, animal or human, the Lord would not have inspired Prophet Isaiah to write that, "To set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent and
return to the obedience of God's Law. " (Isaiah 1:18,19) Hence Jesus himself warned us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
Can you show me a literal evidence that Jesus is still alive? Of course not! But you have faith that he is, right? That's personal opinion under the auspices of Christian preconceived notions.
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Can you show me literal evidence that Jesus is not still alive ? That's personal opinion under the auspices of Jewish preconceived notions.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
If atonement for sins came through the spilling of blood, animal or human, the Lord would not have inspired Prophet Isaiah to write that, "To set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent and
return to the obedience of God's Law. " (Isaiah 1:18,19) Hence Jesus himself warned us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
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The law has no bearing on Christians, we are not under the law, you are. We are under Grace
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
You have only faith to keep that slander going. You must understand that the gospels were written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul whose highest aim was to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
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Paul doesn't preach replacement theology. Please show anything resembling proof that the Gospels were written hellinists and former disciples of Paul. There is none
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
shmogie said:
I will take Paul's testimony on this matter over yours
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Then let me recommend that you take your Bible, rip out the entire Tanakh, and then throw it into the garbage because it's obviously meaningless to you. You do not understand traditional Jewish writing styles, nor does your know-it-all demeanor fit in with any kind of serious theological study, and that's just for starters.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
Paul doesn't preach replacement theology. Please show anything resembling proof that the Gospels were written by hellenist former disciples of Paul. There is none
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Not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT. We would not write against our own Faith. So, who could have written the whole of the NT? It could not be only Paul. Since Paul was a Hellenist, the son of a well-to-do Hellenist couple from
Tarsus in the Cilicia, it is only obvious that the gospel writers were Hellenist former disciples of Paul. Luke, for instance, was a Greek Doctor daily companion of Paul. Mark was also contemporaneous with Paul. Then we have the Hellenist
guy who attributed his gospel to Matthew. If you read Mat. 9:9, it is impossible to think that Matthew the Apostle could have written that gospel. A Jew would not report about another as of being a Greek demigod which is the son of a god
with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18)
 
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B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
The law has no bearing on Christians, we are not under the law, you are. We are under Grace
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Nice try because the Law was given by the grace of God so that we could live in society and not under the law of the jungle. And to claim that Christians are not under the Law is a verbal juggling nonsense. Evidence! Commit a crime and claim grace before the Judge to see where it will take you. You guys are simply deluded that you can live without law. Paul yes, who was akin to the preacher who would say: "Do as I say, though not as I do for I am a sinner too." Hence, he declared that he kept the Law in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. Read Romans 7:25. That's called serving two masters. The Law in words and sin in deeds. Well, he, only, could do that and still claim grace. I think Dostoevsky learned from him to claim to be an extraordinary man not born under the Law. (From his book "Crime and Punishment")
 
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B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
Can you show me literal evidence that Jesus is not still alive ? That's personal opinion under the auspices of Jewish preconceived notions.
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That's for you to prove that he is alive. You are asking me to prove what does not exist! How can that make any sense at all? Well, to think back, a literal evidence that Jesus is not alive is his own gospel
aka the Tanach. Here is are the proofs: II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
That's for you to prove that he is alive. You are asking me to prove what does not exist! How can that make any sense at all? Well, to think back, a literal evidence that Jesus is not alive is his own gospel
aka the Tanach. Here is are the proofs: II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.
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You are wrong, just produce a body, tomb, ossuary whatever to prove he is dead, you cannot because he is not dead. Neither could the Jews of his day
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
Nice try because the Law was given by the grace of God so that we could live in society and not under the law of the jungle. And to claim that Christians are not under the Law is a verbal juggling nonsense. Evidence! Commit a crime and claim grace before the Judge to see where it will take you. You guys are simply deluded that you can live without law. Paul yes, who was akin to the preacher who would say: "Do as I say, though not as I do for I am a sinner too." Hence, he declared that he kept the Law in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. Read Romans 7:25. That's called serving two masters. The Law in words and sin in deeds. Well, he, only, could do that and still claim grace. I think Dostoevsky learned from him to claim to be an extraordinary man not born under the Law. (From his book "Crime and Punishment")
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Of course we are all under the civil law. You are under the Torah, unless you accept the Messiah, I am not under the Torah, I am under Grace. You should read the entire book of Romans, not just an isolated verse, you would have a much clearer understanding of what Grace is, and why the law of the Torah has been replaced.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Ben Avraham said:
I am glad you agree! Can I count with less one to slander the Jewish authorities with having executed Jesus on the cross?
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I am fairly sure.....the execution never would have happened.....
had the Pharisees agreed with the teachings of the Carpenter
had they given up their complaint of Him to the Romans
had they held their peace in the crowd as He taught

it was not the Pharisees that drove the nails
they did not have law for execution

but it was their stubborn complaint....that drove the point
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Ben Avraham said:
Pilate complied to the Jewish authorities! This shows only that you have never read Josephus in his "Wars of the Jews" chapter about Pilate.
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of course Pilate complied.
Pilate was given charge....keep the peace

the small riot at the temple had to be answered
39lashes at the post
one stroke short of a death sentence
Pilate was hoping the Problem would die there

He did not

so a charge worthy of execution followed
 
moorea944

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
That's for you to prove that he is alive. You are asking me to prove what does not exist! How can that make any sense at all? Well, to think back, a literal evidence that Jesus is not alive is his own gospel
aka the Tanach. Here is are the proofs: II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.
Click to expand...

That's for you to prove that he is alive. You are asking me to prove what does not exist! How can that make any sense at all? Well, to think back, a literal evidence that Jesus is not alive is his own gospel
aka the Tanach. Here is are the proofs: II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.
Click to expand...

Apparently I take it that you dont like or believe in the NT and that your just stuck on the OT. Those verses have nothing to do with Christ. Jesus never sinned so the grave could not hold him, meaning, God raised a righteous man from the grave into immortality. Plus, there were witnesses that saw Jesus risen and saw him go up into the clouds into heaven. God keeps His promises.

What kind of stupid talk are you saying that he is not alive in his own gospel..... The bible is the OT AND the NT, just to let you know....
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
shmogie said:
You are wrong, just produce a body, tomb, ossuary whatever to prove he is dead, you cannot because he is not dead. Neither could the Jews of his day
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Cam you prove that your great great great grandmother is dead by producing a body, tomb, ossuary or whatever to prove she is dead? Of course not! Nevertheless she still dead. But let's get back to the case of Jesus.
If you read the gospel writer Mark, when Joseph of Arimathea requested of Pilate to allow him to remove the body of Jesus from the cross, Pilate was quite suspicious that he had died so soon when it was very common
for Jews to remain in their crosses sometimes up to 4 days until they breathed their last. Jesus had stayed only a few hours, about three. Joseph was allowed to remove Jesus' body from the cross and realized that he
was still alive. He laid him to rest in his tomb and, soon enough returned with his colleague Nicodemus with about 100 pounds of medication to treat Jesus' wounds and for that, removed him elsewhere. (John 19:39) Now,
I hope, you understand why his body could not be found in his tomb.
 
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