No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

I am not interested in "what God's kingdom government will do for troubled mankind." I would like evidence of what it HAS done already. In areas where followers of Yahweh are numerous, I would like to see practical utopias. Have any?

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loverofhumanity said:

The Bible, we believe, is the Word of God. We believe all the Holy Books are in harmony. We see the resurrection as spiritual not physical. Even in a vision or in a dream a person can say they are real and not flesh. In a vision or dream one can fly, touch, see, hear and speak and even eat. There is no proof this was not a vision or dream.

Firstly I would like to go to the transfiguration on Mount Tabor then the resurrection.

On Mount Tabor

(Matthew 17:1–19; Mark 9:2–9; Luke 9:28–36. )

Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, …

"Thou didst ask as to the transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias and the Heavenly Father on Mount Tabor, as referred to in the Bible. This occurrence was perceived by the disciples with their inner eye, wherefore it was a secret hidden away, and was a spiritual discovery of theirs. Otherwise, if the intent be that they witnessed physical forms, that is, witnessed that transfiguration with their outward eyes, then there were many others at hand on that plain and mountain, and why did they fail to behold it? And why did the Lord charge them that they should tell no man? It is clear that this was a spiritual vision and a scene of the Kingdom. Wherefore did the Messiah bid them to keep this hidden, ‘till the Son of Man were risen from the dead,’ that is, until the Cause of God should be exalted, and the Word of God prevail, and the reality of Christ rise up."

The Resurrection being in similar vein

“We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after the resurrection is the same thing.”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.” iBooks.

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CG Didymus said:

Then what the NT writers wrote is wrong. It's not misunderstood. They presented it as if he rose from the dead and is alive. One of them wrote that people came out of the grave when he was crucified. It says that Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead. They were telling lies then? It's not in harmony with nothing. They made up stories. It was not misinterpreted by people that came later. If anything, the gospel writers, Paul, Peter and the rest told a fable. They say they touched him, talked to him and that he was alive, but no, you say it was all visions? Hmmm? Something's goofy here.

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URAVIP2ME said:

Good point ^ above ^ and what is the spirit of the law ?
Isn't it having the same self-sacrificing love as Jesus displayed and taught at John 13:34-35 ?
- James 2:8

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columbus said:

The stories of Gandalf, Mohammed, Buddha, and Darth Vader are being told.
The question is "How much of the story is true and how much is fiction? "
Tom
ETA ~ I am reasonably confident that the Legend of Jesus is based on some truth. I have no real question about His existence~

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Kelly of the Phoenix said:

I am not interested in "what God's kingdom government will do for troubled mankind." I would like evidence of what it HAS done already. In areas where followers of Yahweh are numerous, I would like to see practical utopias. Have any?

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CG Didymus said:

Considering the state of the world, is there any proof of any prophet or religion being real? If not born into it or some other way forced into it, who even joins a religion? But, what's worse, is that once a person joins and supposedly "believes", how many actually believe in the religion to actually do the things that the prophet or religion teaches? Unfortunately, Christianity might have the worst track record of "believers" becoming lukewarm. Which, is a huge strike against Christianity for having overwhelming proof that Jesus is real. It can't even get it's own people to believe enough to follow him in any significant way.

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loverofhumanity said:

You are very wise and very precise. Religion is only of any use if it is relevant. Otherwise if a remedy cannot cure an illness it is of no use at all.

Religions must prove their worth to humanity by what they actually achieve on the ground not in an imaginary world of endless theory.

Deeds not words is what humanity demands from religion, no more , no less.

That is the benchmark, that is the standard to which anything calling itself religion must be held.

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sunray said:

I'm not using a Bible or looking up verses in my replies. I've read the Bible and Koran many times, I have as well knowlege of Buddhist texts, above all these words is the spirit of the Law or behind these words if you prefer, if you live with God in your heart and strive to follow your spiritually educated instincts, then you should be living by the spirit of the law.

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loverofhumanity said:

You are very wise and very precise. Religion is only of any use if it is relevant. Otherwise if a remedy cannot cure an illness it is of no use at all.
Religions must prove their worth to humanity by what they actually achieve on the ground not in an imaginary world of endless theory.
Deeds not words is what humanity demands from religion, no more , no less.
That is the benchmark, that is the standard to which anything calling itself religion must be held.

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columbus said:

The crowds would be wild.

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oldbadger said:

Can you show a really successful deed which your religion alone has accomplished for humanity?

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URAVIP2ME said:

According to Scripture, did Jesus teach living by the spirit of the law as important ?
How could one live by the 'spirit' of the law (not instincts) if one does Not have knowledge (education) of the law ?

To me, the prophet Jeremiah warns that a traitor lives within us - Jeremiah 17:9; 10:23
Our hearts urge us to do something, and then 'after' we do what is inclined by the heart, then the heart gives us all the reasons why we should Not have done that in the first place.
Any comments on Matthew 12:34 ?

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oldbadger said: ↑
Can you show a really successful deed which your religion alone has accomplished for humanity?

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loverofhumanity said:

Yes, our very existence - the Baha'i World Community.

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In my view, the Baha'i World Community, a cross section of the human race, comprising all races, religions, nationalities, cultures and tribes, represents a model upon which governments can turn to to establish world peace and unity.

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The Baha'i World Community is a proof that unity in diversity does work and that reconciliation between religions, races and nationalities can be accomplished and is possible as we are in the millions and growing.

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We are only just over 170 years old and if you look at our teachings you will see that while they were not adopted by the world until recently, they were revealed well over a century and a half ago.

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The Baha'i World Community represents a real life model upon which world unity and world peace can be built on that is proven to work and is a cross section of humanity.

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While there is so much disunity between religions, races and nations, the Baha'i World Community shows how all these once antagonistic people like the 'wolf and the lamb' prophesied in the Bible can get along. We have people who once were from warring backgrounds but now are at peace. Yet in the world these people still fight each other.

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If we can do it and we have done it then the world has no excuse and cannot say it can't be done.

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oldbadger said:

Hang on...... That's a condition, not a Deed! What Deed has the Bahair World Community done for humanity?


....which so far it has failed to accomplish. It's sweet talking stuff, but the Jehovah's Witnesses are much further ahead with this than you, methinks. Heh!...... why don't you join together with them? They have the same motive for world peace and unuity. Combine yourselves and double in size? Now why do I think that you won't do that........


Ah Ah Ah! The Jews initiated the idea of World Religious Conventions, a very wonderful rabbli sorted all that. I know because my pagan father got invited to some of these because of his close reklations with Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus and his fluency in Urdu and Hindu. You got beat there.


If that was true you would have offered at least example. I know why you did not offer any examples!


You're repeating yourself, I think? Still nmot a singlre action or Deed?


.... so everybody has got to leave their Faiths and Religions and become...... a Bahai?
What you miss is that if evrerybody became a Shia Muslim there would be peace, or a Sunni Muslim, or a Mormon, or a JW or ...........


Look........ it sounds great but thgere have been so many horrific tragedies since your faith was born that you need to keep quiet about how you have 'DONE IT'.
Absoluite Power corrupts absolutely, and the idea that nine men could have control of the world in a Bahai Theocracy is as terrifying as any othrer nine men controlling the place.

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loverofhumanity said:

http://www.bahai.org/action/involvement-life-society/

The Teaching of the oneness of humanity. That is the major contribution. It's nothing to do with people joining the Baha'i Faith but about educating all humanity to put humanity and not vested and national interests first.

Unless the world and its leaders and its people embrace all humanity regardless of race, religion and nationality - as equals then we face another war.

Baha'is are daily trying to remove prejudices and at this crucial juncture it is all about the oneness of humanity. Nothing else will help the world.

There is no deed greater than educating people to live in peace in this day and age, to accept all humanity as our family. Is there anything more important?

So what I understand you to be saying is that in this day of war, terrorism and disunity, promoting the oneness of all humanity so that we all accept each other's differences unconditionally as part of one human family is of no importance, no significance and a promoter of the peace and well being of all humanity is not doing anything good for humanity?

That educating blacks and whites to see each other as equal humans is not a deed.

That educating people to be tolerant towards each other's Faith is not a deed.

To promote equality of the sexes and the status of women is not a deed.

To educate our children to love all humanity is not a deed.

To teach youth that to serve others, their community and all humanity is not a deed

To promote peace and goodwill towards all humanity is not a deed

To encourage all people to be free from all forms of prejudice is not a good deed.

To educate people to work together as one family, with our diversity, for the betterment of the human race is not a deed.

To put humanity first above national or other interests is not needed today? For all of us regardless of religion, race or nationality to come together is not needed?

If all these are written off then yes we have done nothing for humanity but this is what we do.

Baha'is want world peace and unity and the happiness and well being of all humanity not for everyone to become Bahai or to dominate the world. That is not what we are about. We are about one main theme, the oneness of all humanity.

And it will not happen except through education as treaties and pacts can easily be broken.

I suppose educating humanity to accept its oneness also doesn't constitute itself as a 'deed' but then how are we going to achieve meaningful peace without our prejudices being eradicated through education???

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oldbadger said:

Ah, you sweet talkin' member!

I remember a man whose wife was a Bahai, and when she died he gave respect and control about every aspect of her burial, her funeral.... everything to the Local Spiritual assembly. He asked the LSA'a permission for anything that he personally wanted to do. He even asked their prermission to allow him to put his wife's Bahai prayer book in her grave beside her. He gave them respect. And afterwards, they distanced themseves from him, and turned his requests to visit away.... again and again and again. If that LSA is any guide to what a Bahai World would be like, then we had better steer clear of it.

Now....... can I give you a good tip?
A young Bahai once spoke all of this, again and again and again..... and eventually a very wise old man stopped him, and said to him,
'I am banning you from ever speaking about your Faith again, with one exception. You must now go and live your faith by the second, minute, day etc and you may not speak of your Faith until somebody comes up to you and says, 'I am so impressed with you and about the way that you live. What is your secret?' '

'..... when that happens, you can tell of it', said the wise old man. The years went by, and nobody, absolutely nobody ever asked that young man to tell his secret.

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columbus said:

According to Gospel

Jesus was well known in the vicinity of Jerusalem in the first decades of the CE. He had grown up in nearby Nazareth. He had preached to large crowds. He had been to parties with rich folks. He had healed desperately ill people, even after they died. Then He made a big altercation in the Temple. By the week of the Passion of Christ, many if not most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem knew about Him. Many knew Him by face. He had lots of followers, including The Twelve.

Then He did something that got Him the ire of the local Jewish authorities. Likely the big deal in the Temple, but who knows. They hired one of His own to turn Him in. They turned Him over to Pilate. Apparently the evidence was weak, Pilate tried to foist the problem off onto Herod. Herod wasn't buying it, so Pilate summarily ordered Jesus to be tortured and crucified, the way Jewish terrorists/ freedom fighters generally were at the time. He was scourged to within an inch of His life. Then dragged naked through the streets of Jerusalem on the busiest day of the year(last shopping day before Passover) , carrying His own execution device, then nailed to the Cross to die in front of God and everybody. Then a Roman stabbed Him with a spear.
There is also mention of a solar event and an earthquake strong enough to damage the Temple. But not all the gospel writers remember that.

If the story had ended there(as it did in the original version of the oldest gospel, Mark), nobody would remember. Jesus would be just another troublesome Jew executed by the Romans before they leveled the Temple, and kicked the Jews out of Judea. It happened often.

But the story goes on. Jesus reappeared a few days later. Better than new, only a few scars as proof that He actually was the one crucified last Friday. Thomas checked it out for himself.
Given the facts, the place and time, and human nature, there are a few things a rational observer would expect.
The first would be crowds. A bunch of people saw that Jesus guy dragged through the streets to His death. Then they spent the next couple of days eating and hanging out with family, as people do on holidays. So lots of people, regardless of how they viewed Jesus, knew about the events of Friday. Jesus, Alive!, would be a huge big deal. A secret like that cannot be kept. People would care, even if they didn't believe in the Trinity. And Jesus was around for almost 40 more days. Then He Ascended to Heaven. The crowds would be wild.
People would hang on His every Word. They would want to know everything possible about His prior life and lineage and teachings and Everything. The spot He was born, His girlfriends, the spot from which He ascended. .... People would have wanted to know everything. And would have done anything to please Him. Throw themselves against the Romans in His Name. Erect statues and monuments, take in His Holy Mother, follow The Apostles around insufferably, pass stories about seeing Jesus's own sandal once with my own eyes to the grandkids...

But none of that happened. Nothing. It is impossible to find a credible reference to Jesus's existence before the Jewish diaspora. The Romans didn't notice. The Jewish authorities didn't notice.
Hardly anyone remembered anything until Paul came along. By then, nobody even remembered where Jesus ascended. A few decades after that, people started writing things down. But the writings were vague, not terribly consistent, and extremely incomplete. The earliest ones were pretty barebones, later ones had lots more supernatural details. But there is nothing like accounts of Jesus and His story anything like contemporary with Jesus.
Nothing.
And here is the biggest gap of all. What did The Risen Lord teach, do, or say during the 40 Days? Did everyone just forget? Didn't they care? It is like Jesus went on vacation during the most momentous time He was on earth! He could have explained Trinitarianism. Produced a code of Christian behavior that would exclude the Crusades, EuroChristian colonialism, and slavery in the Americas.(just to name a few)
But none of that happened. Absolutely nothing of interest is recorded as happening during The Risen Christ's 40 days with us fallible humans.

The remarkable lack of historical evidence, when it should exist in piles, is why I doubt that the character in the New Testament is more than a legend created later, for the purposes of humans. Nothing to do with God.
Tom

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Etritonakin said:

Most Jews did not believe he was the Messiah.
Those who are opposed to someone or something normally do not sing the praises thereof...... Even if they worked miracles (It is recorded that some believed he did what he did by the power of the devil)....
Unless they can see some advantage....
Which bring us to the very existence of what many consider to be the "Christian" church.
Rome and the kingdoms which followed would not have been so extremely affected if extreme events had not occurred.
Consider the reasons why Rome -who officially executed Christ for challenging its rule (king of the Jews was his official crime) -then persecuted his followers into near nonexistence -somehow then accepted belief in Christ and eventually accepted that its authority and power came from Christ.
Some were sincere, some saw it as a way to take advantage of popular belief, and belief in Christ became associated with an organization which was in turn associated with human government.
Rome did not mind any religion -and encouraged people to practice their own religions -as long as Roman rule was not challenged.
However... Many of those religions and their practices became mixed together.
The practices of "Christianity" today are greatly affected by other religions -whereas Christ and his followers -even Gentiles, as recorded -observed the biblical holy days -including the seventh day sabbath -not Sunday -which are considered "Jewish" today.
So... What most people do today who are considered "Christian" is different than what Christ and his followers did and taught.
Whatever one believes to be the reason for that, belief in Christ was no longer seen as a challenge to rulership -and even became a rationale for conquest.
I hope none are offended by that -it is simply what happened.
I am not commenting here about God's view of the subject.
I am also certainly not saying that Christ would have agreed with the crusades.

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