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Drunk,pork,homosexual what Bible tells ?

psychedelicsoul

Active Member
I think it's relatively simple... I'm not christian but I wanna keep religion alive to study and learn from. I think there are points in the bible that are worth noting and applying.
I think if you have faith in the bible, you should be able to change your sexuality. Not because the bible is real, but because of the spiritual power human beings have. And if you can't.... Then why believe in a God that condemns you and won't lift a divine finger to change the thing he condemns about you?

That's some loving God Christians worship...
 

ronandcarol

Member
Premium Member
I am little confused if Alchohol,Pork,Homosex are clearly forbiden , if YES, then why then why most of Christians did not follow their Bible , by eat pork,drink alchohol, and agree with homosexual ?
The short answer is, because we live in a fallen world! Why else would this nations supreme court make it legal in the United States for same sex marriage? Why is religious freedom being taken away? Why does a bakery get sued out of business for not wanting to decorate a cake for a same sex couple? Why in this fallen society that we call america, why can't a person that believes in what the Bible says, why can't they follow their beliefs? Yes Godobeyer, we live in a fallen world, all we can do is make sure our light is shining as bright as we can.

ronandcarol
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Because Christianity is not Judaism.

I could elaborate but really it's on you to know the differences between the two religions.

What does Judaism have to do with it? Christians include the OT (or the Tanakh) in their Bibles. Why do so if you're not going to follow it? And what about Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:29-31? There isn't any reason why Christianity shouldn't preach Moses and the prophets, because that is what Jesus upheld. Compare John 14:6 to Psalms 119:1, Psalms 119:142, and Proverbs 13:14.
 

atpollard

Active Member
What does Judaism have to do with it? Christians include the OT (or the Tanakh) in their Bibles. Why do so if you're not going to follow it? And what about Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:29-31? There isn't any reason why Christianity shouldn't preach Moses and the prophets, because that is what Jesus upheld. Compare John 14:6 to Psalms 119:1, Psalms 119:142, and Proverbs 13:14.
I see that your signature includes Romans 14.
Did you read the chapters in Romans leading up to chapter 14?
They answer your question, so you shouldn't have to ask it.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Hi all

I am little confused if Alchohol,Pork,Homosex are clearly forbiden , if YES, then why then why most of Christians did not follow their Bible , by eat pork,drink alchohol, and agree with homosexual ?

please reply with scriptures from Bible ?
1 Timothy 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Acts 10:9-16
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.


Matthew 15:10-20
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[fn] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”


1 Corinthians 10:23-33
23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[fn]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.


I can't provide a verse that Homosexuality is OK, because the Bible does not say that it is. The Christians that I know oppose it.
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
I've addressed my understanding of Romans 14 in this thread here. Scroll down to post #30. I don't even know why you're commenting on my signature. The book of Romans doesn't nullify the Law (Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, Romans 6:15, Romans 7:12-14). Paul was basically saying that the law cannot be fulfilled in us if we live by the flesh, that is why we have to live by the Spirit, because the Law only condemns the flesh, but perfects the Spirit. In other words, if you sin you are under the law. If you are righteous then then you have fulfilled the law.
 

atpollard

Active Member
I've addressed my understanding of Romans 14 in this thread here. Scroll down to post #30. I don't even know why you're commenting on my signature. The book of Romans doesn't nullify the Law (Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, Romans 6:15, Romans 7:12-14). Paul was basically saying that the law cannot be fulfilled in us if we live by the flesh, that is why we have to live by the Spirit, because the Law only condemns the flesh, but perfects the Spirit. In other words, if you sin you are under the law. If you are righteous then then you have fulfilled the law.
See, you do know the reason to include the OT in the Bible if we are not going to follow it.
You read all about it in Romans.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Paul never said we didn't have to obey the Law. The Law is still in effect. (Matthew 5:17-19).
With all due respect, you read the answer in Romans.
If you don't believe Paul, what chance is there that you will believe me if I tell you the same thing he did?

I only pointed to your Signature because it indicated that you should have already read the answer to the question you were asking. Your response indicates that you have read it and have not understood what it says.

Let's be honest, you are not about to seriously consider any exegesis I might offer.
So what would be gained by debating the facts.

Only God can open the eyes of the blind (Whichever one of us that is.)

Live long and prosper (since I doubt that you enjoy many blessings),
Arthur
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
@Godobeyer

Matthew 15:11 and Mark 7:15 do not override the law against eating pork due to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus said "not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man" in response to the Pharisees' accusation that his disciples were eating with dirty hands. This is certainly not an overriding of the Law of Moses. In Matthew 15:19, Jesus lists that which defiles a man, one of them being murder. You can't eat a pig (or any animal for that matter) without murdering it. Think about that. Another would be "wicked reasonings," an example of which would be to take jesus' words out of context to nullify God's commandments.

With all due respect, you read the answer in Romans.
If you don't believe Paul, what chance is there that you will believe me if I tell you the same thing he did?

I only pointed to your Signature because it indicated that you should have already read the answer to the question you were asking. Your response indicates that you have read it and have not understood what it says.

Let's be honest, you are not about to seriously consider any exegesis I might offer.
So what would be gained by debating the facts.

Only God can open the eyes of the blind (Whichever one of us that is.)

Live long and prosper (since I doubt that you enjoy many blessings),
Arthur

I'd rather not start a debate here. The mods have already got onto my case about that.
 

atpollard

Active Member
@Godobeyer

Matthew 15:11 and Mark 7:15 do not override the law against eating pork due to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus said "not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man" in response to the Pharisees' accusation that his disciples were eating with dirty hands. This is certainly not an overriding of the Law of Moses. In Matthew 15:19, Jesus lists that which defiles a man, one of them being murder. You can't eat a pig (or any animal for that matter) without murdering it. Think about that. Another would be "wicked reasonings," an example of which would be to take jesus' words out of context to nullify God's commandments.
@Godobeyer
For 2000 years, Christian Theologians have interpreted those verses and others to indicate that the dietary laws of the OT no longer apply to Christians.

Fortunately, you have MountainPine to correct this long standing misunderstanding.

God Bless you in your quest for understanding,
Arthur
 

atpollard

Active Member
The First Jerusalem Council

Acts 15:22-29

22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.


These are the requirements of the OT Law for Gentiles (non-Jewish) believers.

Avoid Pagan Religious practices (like meat from strangled animals and temple prostitutes).

The NT Law from the lips of Jesus is to Love God with all of our strength and love our neighbor as our self.
Alcohol and Pork do not enter into this, but sexual immorality is not an act of love.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The short answer is, because we live in a fallen world! Why else would this nations supreme court make it legal in the United States for same sex marriage? Why is religious freedom being taken away? Why does a bakery get sued out of business for not wanting to decorate a cake for a same sex couple? Why in this fallen society that we call america, why can't a person that believes in what the Bible says, why can't they follow their beliefs? Yes Godobeyer, we live in a fallen world, all we can do is make sure our light is shining as bright as we can.

ronandcarol
Lol, what a bunch of crap.

In America, we have (or are supposed to have) separation of church and state. So what you think your religious text teaches has (or should have) no bearing on the law. The Constitution is secular. So you cannot use religion as a legal reason to keep gay marriage illegal. Since there's no compelling legal reason to keep it illegal, the Supreme Court did their job and invalidated the bans on it.

Oh, and you can into trouble for refusing to serve clients on the basis of protected classes such as race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.: http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/

Believe whatever you want in your own home, but when it comes to the law and in your dealings with others, your religious beliefs don't trump the rights of others.

Oh, and as a queer trans Christian, I would say that the Bible doesn't have much to say about homosexuality in general, if anything at all: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Sure, the Catholic hierarchy teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, but the hierarchy also used to preach that the Jews are cursed and stir up hatred against them. They changed their minds on that and now anti-Semitism is viewed as a sin. So they can change their minds on sexual matters. It's not like it's a pillar of theology and dogma in the first place. We know a lot more in this area than we used to, so it's time to align with facts.
 
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atpollard

Active Member
gaychristian101.com gives proper understanding to the passages that allegedly "condemn" homosexuality. Really all I have to say on that matter.


Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


I know you have some clever, reinterpretation to explain Romans 1 ... but it actually seems pretty clear to me.
I'll stick with just thinking that God probably said what he means and meant what he said.
 

Animore

Active Member
Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


I know you have some clever, reinterpretation to explain Romans 1 ... but it actually seems pretty clear to me.
I'll stick with just thinking that God probably said what he means and meant what he said.
Sure, you can read it without realizing its actual interpretation all you want, but the fact remains that from a historical context, it means the sacrifice of seed to false gods.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Sure, you can read it without realizing its actual interpretation all you want, but the fact remains that from a historical context, it means the sacrifice of seed to false gods.
"God gave them over to shameful lusts." - About desires, not acts. Lust is what you want and think, more than what you do. The acts will inevitably follow, but it is the desires that are 'shameful' and they are consequence of God lifting moral restraint and allowing fallen hearts to follow its desires.

"women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones." - It is going to take a heck of a biology lesson to redefine 'natural' and 'unnatural' from their obvious Darwinian "reproductive advantage" definitions and make this say something other than what it says. Every farmer knows the difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural' sexual relations between his cows and bulls.

"men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." - again, I would have you note 'inflamed with lust' is not about immoral acts, it is about sinful desires.

The problem with homosexuality, from a Christian perspective, is not that people struggle with it as a sin. The problem is that we want to redefine it as not being a sin. We don't have Alcoholic Pride Parades.
 

Animore

Active Member
"God gave them over to shameful lusts." - About desires, not acts. Lust is what you want and think, more than what you do. The acts will inevitably follow, but it is the desires that are 'shameful' and they are consequence of God lifting moral restraint and allowing fallen hearts to follow its desires.

"women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones." - It is going to take a heck of a biology lesson to redefine 'natural' and 'unnatural' from their obvious Darwinian "reproductive advantage" definitions and make this say something other than what it says. Every farmer knows the difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural' sexual relations between his cows and bulls.

"men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." - again, I would have you note 'inflamed with lust' is not about immoral acts, it is about sinful desires.

The problem with homosexuality, from a Christian perspective, is not that people struggle with it as a sin. The problem is that we want to redefine it as not being a sin. We don't have Alcoholic Pride Parades.

Disclaimer:Look, I'm not arguing with you here to change your mind. I'm debating with you here so that you can see from my point of view. We all have different ways of glorifying God, and I respect you and love you as a brother/sister.

I'll address the last portion first. Forgive me if anything contradicts anything, or anything similar to such. I've got a blaring headache.

Never once in y experience as a christian have I ever heard someone call alcoholism not a sin. Yes, I know it's an analogy, but it's a bad one. Now, onto the first portion.

Whether it is the idea of them lusting after it or not is irrelevant. What is relevant, at least in my book, is that they desired to do something that was for false gods. And before we start a debate over this, we HAVE to look at it from a historical context, just as most all of the other books, epistles, etc. of the Bible.

Why would Paul address the Romans specifically is what I ask you. There has to be something more to it other than, "they were committing homosexual acts." There were plenty people doing it at the time. He wouldn't have addressed the Romans specifically, without adding something like, "as many others do..." and continue on.

So, without further ado, let's look at it from a historical context.

The Romans, back then, were prominent for their wild sexual acts, for the sole intentions of idol worship. The Romans, apart from displaying message of what I like to call "sexual propaganda," during their idol worship, drugged themselves and put themselves in a state of wild, drug-influenced ecstasy, all-the-while committing "homosexual acts." However, in my book, looking at the context, it was not the homosexual part that made it a sin. It was idol worship, shrine prostitution, and general sexual immorality in the form of drug-induced sex.

And in the part where it talks about changing the natural uses of men and women, it's quite vague there. This could generally mean homosexual acts, but from what we've previously read, it would seem accurate that there is a bigger factor in this, an again, this pertains to shrine prostitution.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Disclaimer:Look, I'm not arguing with you here to change your mind. I'm debating with you here so that you can see from my point of view. We all have different ways of glorifying God, and I respect you and love you as a brother/sister.

I'll address the last portion first. Forgive me if anything contradicts anything, or anything similar to such. I've got a blaring headache.

Never once in y experience as a christian have I ever heard someone call alcoholism not a sin. Yes, I know it's an analogy, but it's a bad one. Now, onto the first portion.

Whether it is the idea of them lusting after it or not is irrelevant. What is relevant, at least in my book, is that they desired to do something that was for false gods. And before we start a debate over this, we HAVE to look at it from a historical context, just as most all of the other books, epistles, etc. of the Bible.

Why would Paul address the Romans specifically is what I ask you. There has to be something more to it other than, "they were committing homosexual acts." There were plenty people doing it at the time. He wouldn't have addressed the Romans specifically, without adding something like, "as many others do..." and continue on.

So, without further ado, let's look at it from a historical context.

The Romans, back then, were prominent for their wild sexual acts, for the sole intentions of idol worship. The Romans, apart from displaying message of what I like to call "sexual propaganda," during their idol worship, drugged themselves and put themselves in a state of wild, drug-influenced ecstasy, all-the-while committing "homosexual acts." However, in my book, looking at the context, it was not the homosexual part that made it a sin. It was idol worship, shrine prostitution, and general sexual immorality in the form of drug-induced sex.

And in the part where it talks about changing the natural uses of men and women, it's quite vague there. This could generally mean homosexual acts, but from what we've previously read, it would seem accurate that there is a bigger factor in this, an again, this pertains to shrine prostitution.
Thank you for a very polite response.
We will both obviously agree to disagree, but it was interesting having a non-adversarial conversation.

God Bless,
Arthur
 
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