Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

moorea944 said:

Not quite sure what your saying here. Divide the Holy Spirit? How can you divide the power of God?

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It is not possible to do imo, but they do it.

Your not saying that the HS is a person or something like that are you...

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I am not saying that.
According to the teaching of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses The Holy Spirit is active upon Jesus for opening the scrolls to call forth the riders and also active upon Jesus as a rider. If you can't see that is a divided Holy Spirit, it is not my problem.

Does Jesus do the will of God by The Holy Spirit?

During the time the rider is allowed to ride, is The Holy Spirit doing two things which oppose each other?

Look! A lamb and a man with a bow. How is that not divided, in your opinion?

Why not tell me what a lamb and a conqueror have in common? Remember, they exist at the same time.

Also, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach a literal interpretation of it. According to them, here....I mean there..... really is Jesus riding to conquer*, in their opinion.

*Even though according to God's Word, he conquered 2000 years ago AND was given all authority then. According to the governing body under inspiration of The Holy Spirit, he is given a crown (authority) AFTER the lamb calls forth himself.

If you picture it as taught, you will see the Holy Spirit in the lamb is calling forth the Holy Spirit in the rider. That takes TWO and two is one divided.

I do not believe I can make math any simpler.

The Lamb calls forth himself. That is one (a lamb) and two (a rider with a bow). He does the will of Jehovah (not his real name) and the only way anyone can do that is by The Holy Spirit so we have the Holy Spirit acting as a lamb and The Holy Spirit acting as a rider going forth to conquer.

Am I wrong? Is there any other way to accomplish the will of God?

Jesus does the will of God and that is by The Holy Spirit. Correct?

I miss you @Deeje

Deeje said:

Those scriptures mean nothing without an explanation from other scripture to fill in the blanks.

e.g. Psalm 145:20....Who are the wicked whom God will destroy and when will this take place? How does it fit in with God's original purpose for mankind and this earth?

Proverbs 10:27 was already explained....and at 2 Corinthians 4:18....what is it that we are fixing our eyes on? What is temporary and why? How is the unseen eternal?

If we have no details, what do these verses mean on their own? Do we just fill in the blanks ourselves?

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The temporary are the things that we experience and endure as we continue living as a human flesh on this earth. We suffer trials, persecutions and hardships. What is unseen is the glories in heaven, the eternal, the joy in heaven, and the things that God has promised to us--to be with Him--the unseen eternal.

Deeje said:

When Jesus quoted OT scripture, he would have used the divine name because he said he had come to make God's name known. (John 17:26)

In two incidences just off the top of my head, Jesus quoted passages from the Hebrew scriptures.....one he read in the synagogue (Luke 4:17-21) and the other he quoted in response to a question. (Matthew 22:34-40)

In Luke 4:17-21, Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn" (ASV)

In Matthew 22:34-40 Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:5.
" and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (ASV)

If Jesus said he came to make his Father's name known, he would have said God's name aloud in those two instances. How could he teach us to pray for God's name to be "hallowed" if he never mentioned it?

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In interlinear Greek, it is kurios, did not say Jehovah here. Can you show the whole passage in the interlinear Greek?

Thanks

savagewind said:

Any other religion is not much different, but there are none like the JWs who divide the 144,000. Are there? Should I go troll them too? Tell me where they are, and I will! Oh fun!

The teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses.

All governing body members can be and are guided by The Holy Spirit.
They seem to be able to train other men to be guided by it too.
An individual who is not a governing body and who is not trained by it is not guided by The Holy Spirit.

The reason seems to be well hidden.

Can you make some sense of this please?

What is the reason why brothers taking the lead are guided by The Holy Spirit, but sheep who follow can't/shouldn't be/aren't (pick one) be guided by The Holy Spirit?

Do not tell another lie @Deeje, because it just isn't right to lie. Is it? Compare Ephesians 4:25

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Oh! that is a very dangerous thing to think of that the governing body are guided by the HS. So everything that the body will interpret and say should be applied and followed. There are a lot of cases such as these, and a lot of people died by following a cult leadership. Sorry to say that word, but that is truly the spirit behind an organization. This is reason why once a member were disfellowshipped, he is carrying the heavy load that he is not with God anymore and cannot be with God anymore.

But the truth is : no organization or any governing body can save your soul, it is Jesus Christ only who can save your soul. Why should we be controlled by an organization while there is the Holy Spirit? What's the use of the HS?

Thanks

Yoshua said:

The temporary are the things that we experience and endure as we continue living as a human flesh on this earth. We suffer trials, persecutions and hardships. What is unseen is the glories in heaven, the eternal, the joy in heaven, and the things that God has promised to us--to be with Him--the unseen eternal.

In interlinear Greek, it is kurios, did not say Jehovah here. Can you show the whole passage in the interlinear Greek?

Thanks

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Did you notice how she stopped at Matt 22:40. Wanna know why? Verses 42-45 is Jesus quoting Psalms 110:1 and, according to the Peschitta, He is referring to Himself as David's YHVH/Jehovah. I've confronted her with this evidence twice and all she could muster up is an ad hominem response. I suspect her Elder needs some time to conjure up an answer for that one.

In interlinear Greek, it is kurios, did not say Jehovah here. Can you show the whole passage in the interlinear Greek?

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Kurios is "Lord" which is a title substituted by men for YHWH. (Jehovah in English) Who told those men to take God's name out of his own holy book and substitute a title?

Matthew 22:35-46: ASV
"35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him: 36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.


41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, What think ye of the Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying,


44 The Lord said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet?


45 If David then calleth him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

Now, how does the ASV translate Psalm 110:1?

"Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

So if the same translation uses "Jehovah" in Psalms, then it should use "Jehovah" when quoting that Psalm in the NT.

This is why the NWT translates Matt 22:35-46......
"And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them: 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He asked them: “How is it, then, that David under inspiration calls him Lord, saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? 45 If, then, David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, and from that day on, no one dared to question him any further."

Putting God's name back where men took it out is not against God's law but it shows what men did to the divine name without God's sanction.

Deeje said:

Putting God's name back where men took it out is not against God's law but it shows what men did to the divine name without God's sanction.

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I say men did change some words of God and some people @Deeje @katiemygirl and many others, say it is not possible for the word of God to be changed because Jehovah has protected it from changing enough to change meaning.

Men took out God's Name without sanction, but no word's meaning was changed. And that is what I am supposed to believe, I suppose. I can't.

Must I die for not believing?

Deeje said:

Rutherford was a different kind of leader who made it clear that we follow Jesus Christ, so those who followed the man stayed where they were and did not progress and do not preach about God's Kingdom "in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus instructed...in fact, most people do not even know that they exist.

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He was most definitely a "different kind of leader". He wrote,

The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874; that the harvest followed thereafter and greater light has come upon the Word of God. In this connection, then, let us note the words of Jesus: "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing." (Matthew 24:45, 46) It must be conceded, then, that at the end of the world, at the "time of the end", during the presence of the Lord, during the harvest, he would have in the earth a servant who would be faithful and wise. The physical facts show that Brother Russell met every one of these requirements. This prophetic utterance, then, has been fulfilled. Therefore fulfilled prophecy, or physical facts, and the circumstantial evidence are conclusive proofs that Brother Russell filled the office of that faithful and wise servant. He applied his heart unto wisdom. (Watchtower – March 1, 1922 p. 74)

If the "indisputable facts", showed that the Lord's second "presence" began in 1874, and the "physical facts" are "conclusive proofs" that Russell was the prophesied "slave", how do those "facts" change?

If the "physical facts" and "circumstantial evidence", "PROVE" that Russell was the "slave", how did it go from 'ONE' person (Russell) being the slave to a "composite" slave, first consisting of all the 144,000 and then being whittled down to just the 7 men in NY?

Russell is supposedly one of the 144,000, but it says of them, no lie was found in their mouths. He did lie, because he said God's will was
recorded in the shape of Egypt's pyramid which we know is not the truth. He said lots of other things too that are not now true, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Deeje said:

In so many threads discussing the trinity, one of the members seems to be a little overlooked, so I thought it might be fruitful to discuss the holy spirit as "God".

Who or what is God's holy Spirit?

Is the holy spirit a person?

In so many scriptures where Jesus is seen "at the right hand of God", can anyone provide a scripture that says the holy spirit is ever seen at his left hand?

If both the Father and son have personal names as well as titles, can anyone provide a personal name for the holy spirit?

Are the scriptures written to support the idea that the holy spirit is the third part of the triune godhead?

Is the holy spirit ever called "God"?

We see in the scriptures that there is "God the Father" but can anyone provide a reference to "God the Son"? or "God the Holy Spirit"?

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~;> as they say
as it is written
:read:
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own,


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

savagewind said:

Russell is supposedly one of the 144,000, but it says of them, no lie was found in their mouths. He did lie, because he said God's will was
recorded in the shape of Egypt's pyramid which we know is not the truth. He said lots of other things too that are not now true, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

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~;> actually
the 144,000 were the
every tribe of the children of Israel:
as it is written
:read:
Revelation of John 7:4
I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

I believe the scriptures teach the following:

There is only one God. His name is YHWH (not Jehovah). That one God is a Spirit (John 4:24)
There is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)
God is holy - He is the Holy Spirit - Not another person- He said in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. (Joel 2:27,28)
The Holy Spirit was the Father of the child born of Mary (Matthew 1:18, 20)

As followup to post #1234 I also believe the following:

According to Isaiah 9:6 this child would not only be the son, but he would also be the mighty God and the everlasting Father.

Isn't that what the Messiah himself taught? He said I and my Father are one. (John 10:30) He said when asked to show them the Father - if you have seen me you have seen the Father. (John 14:8-9) He said he was before Abraham. He said unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins. There were times they wanted to stone him because they knew he was saying he was God.

For behold YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. (Micah 1:3) What are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? (Micah 1:5)

A voice would cry out in the wilderness (Isaiah 40:3) - Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. In the NT this voice turns out to be John the baptist. Who did John the baptist prepare the way for? Who showed up? The Messiah was YHWH manifest in the flesh.

The fleshly body was the son, but the eternal Spirit dwelling in that body was YHWH. God was in Messiah reconciling the world to himself. (2 Corinthians 5:19)
For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9) The Father that dwells in me he does the works. ( John 14:10)

God needed blood to shed for man's sin. So he took on a fleshly body that was subject to all the things we are, such as pain, hunger, thirst, temptation, even death. No you can't kill the eternal Spirit of God, but the fleshly body he took on (called the son) could be sacrificed. The fleshly body could be tempted. Yet through the help of the Spirit he was victorious, the perfect sacrifice and worthy to conquer death for all mankind. He did it to show us how great his love for us was, and to be an example for us. God was manifest in the flesh.

TrueBeliever37 said:

I believe the scriptures teach the following:

There is only one God. His name is YHWH (not Jehovah). That one God is a Spirit (John 4:24)
There is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)
God is holy - He is the Holy Spirit - Not another person- He said in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. (Joel 2:27,28)
The Holy Spirit was the Father of the child born of Mary (Matthew 1:18, 20)

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Acts2:32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses
.33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ is part of the creation.

Col.1:15-:18
Rev.1:5+3:14

The beginning, firstborn of all creation.

The beginning, firstborn of the dead.



Peace.

Notaclue said:

Acts2:32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses
.33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ is part of the creation.

Col.1:15-:18
Rev.1:5+3:14

The beginning, firstborn of all creation.

The beginning, firstborn of the dead.



Peace.

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This doesn't conflict with what I have said. Of course the fleshly body did not exist prior to birth. Scripture says he was made of a woman, made under the law. There is a difference between the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body and the fleshly body itself. The eternal Spirit dwelling in the body is the Father, and the fleshly body is the son.

You have skipped over most of the points I made. Please tell which points you disagree with, and then give scripture to refute it.

The Messiah said Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. And as you said above God raised up the body. So this is further proof that he was YHWH in the flesh.

Also note there is only One Lord. Ephesians 4:5 - (You aren't trying to say there is more than one Lord are you?) He was both Father and son as Isaiah 9:6 said he would be.

As the scripture in Colossians you referenced above says: He is the image of the invisible God. The invisible God was dwelling in that body as Colossians 2:9 says. Colossians 1:16 said by him all things were created. (You do agree this verse is talking about the Messiah don't you?) Now note that in Isaiah 44:24 YHWH said that he made all things, and stretched out the heavens alone and spread abroad the earth by himself. So that means the Messiah had to be YHWH manifest in the flesh.