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The Pauline Paradox

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Only for people that need to find fault with something so they have a reason not to believe.

Well my friend, you don't find any fault in the NT because you can't read it without Christian preconceived notions. Don't forget, I am of the same Faith Jesus was. You would have no differently if Jesus could be around today.
 

randomvim

Member
It's My Birthday!
Read Genesis 49:10; Judah was the one with the Messianic scepter. From that day on, the Messiah which is not the king Messiah or the anointed High Priest, he is Judah aka Emanuel (God with us) if you read Isaiah 8:8.
Mary was not from the House of David. The closest tribal relationship with Mary I found was the Tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5,36)
I don't need to check any source outside the NT as "behold your mother is concerned." John was neither Jesus' beloved disciple nor stood there before Jesus at the Calvary. The statement "behold your mother" is a reference to Mary Magdalene
to take her mother-in-law Mary home with her.
Jesus was great all right but he was a human being and, in fact not a sinless one if you read Matthew 23:13-33 which justifies Ecclesiastes 7:20.
Hence God did choose the lineage of David from the Tribe of Judah. (I Kings 11:26) But Paul messed up the whole thing by denying that Jesus was a biological son of Joseph. (II Timothy 2:8; Acts 9:20)

My goodness. doing this from my phone is not easy. I will address some things I found unusual.


1. what do you mean by closest tribal relationship?

2. if you rely on NT or even reference OT then you would see majority of people in this world learn from others about God. not everything is easily understood and I would suspect even the things you state are not new to you only.

Others have stated similar if not exact same claims which may have been your source. So your comment on that is thinking inside the box.

3.However, if you were actually considering NT ONLY, then you would believe Paul, John, and others in Bible that not just clarify Jesus as God and Messiah, but other comments would not be considered to be "messed up."

Jesus would be talking to John as that is in the Bible.

4. Jesus is Fully human as He is Fully Devine. Jesus Himself claimed this; though yes, difficult to identify.

as said above I will post more later.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Well my friend, you don't find any fault in the NT because you can't read it without Christian preconceived notions. Don't forget, I am of the same Faith Jesus was. You would have no differently if Jesus could be around today.

And what "faith" do you consider that to be?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Maybe you can explain where Paul invented it? Hebrews 8:13 isn't by Paul, and Romans 11 grafts Gentiles on to the house of Israel.

Yeshua at the end of the parable of the wicked husbandmen, states the wicked husbandmen are to lose their inheritance, and it is to be given to others.

Yeshua when talking to the Roman centurion, says that no greater faith has been found within Israel; thus the children of Israel won't be invited within the Messianic age, and the faithful will instead.

In the parable of the wedding feast, the original guests refused the invite, thus new guest are invited.

Paul does put forward that Christians are the bride of Christ, which then makes some of the supersession confusion.
The Lord never divorced
The people chose to:

Zechariah 11 is the divorce decree for the 30 pieces of silver, put in the Potters field in the house of Israel; thus nullifying the covenant made with all the people. :innocent:
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
My goodness. doing this from my phone is not easy. I will address some things I found unusual.


1. what do you mean by closest tribal relationship?

2. if you rely on NT or even reference OT then you would see majority of people in this world learn from others about God. not everything is easily understood and I would suspect even the things you state are not new to you only.

Others have stated similar if not exact same claims which may have been your source. So your comment on that is thinking inside the box.

3.However, if you were actually considering NT ONLY, then you would believe Paul, John, and others in Bible that not just clarify Jesus as God and Messiah, but other comments would not be considered to be "messed up."

Jesus would be talking to John as that is in the Bible.

4. Jesus is Fully human as He is Fully Devine. Jesus Himself claimed this; though yes, difficult to identify.

as said above I will post more later.

If you read Luke 1:5,36 the text says that Mary was a relative, probably a cousin of Elizabeth from the Tribe of Levi. That's the closest I have found about Mary as tribal genealogy is concerned. How can you propose to a Jew
to consider the NT ONLY in spite of the Tanach? Was that for the laughs or for the gags? The bottom line my friend is that you need faith to believe these things. It is impossible to adopt them by understanding.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Maybe you can explain where Paul invented it? Hebrews 8:13 isn't by Paul, and Romans 11 grafts Gentiles on to the house of Israel.

Throughout the NT, especially his Letters. Replacement Theology is the basis of the NT, considering that the NT was written by Hellenist former disciples of Paul's.

Yeshua at the end of the parable of the wicked husbandmen, states the wicked husbandmen are to lose their inheritance, and it is to be given to others.

Not Yeshua but the Hellenist who attributed those words to him. Not a single Jew wrote a single page of the NT.

Yeshua when talking to the Roman centurion, says that no greater faith has been found within Israel; thus the children of Israel won't be invited within the Messianic age, and the faithful will instead.

We cannot assert that Yeshua authored the words applied to him because he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. When Paul showed up preaching his gospel, Yeshua had been gone for perhaps about 30 years.

In the parable of the wedding feast, the original guests refused the invite, thus new guest are invited.

See what I mean? That's Replacement Theology language.

Paul does put forward that Christians are the bride of Christ, which then makes some of the supersession confusion.

Tell me about it!

The people chose to: Zechariah 11 is the divorce decree for the 30 pieces of silver, put in the Potters field in the house of Israel; thus nullifying the covenant made with all the people. :innocent:

HaShem never divorced Judah which is now the new Israel. He did divorce Israel, the Ten Tribes aka the Tabernacle of Joseph if you read Psalm 78:67-69 where we have that He rejected Israel and confirmed
Judah to remain as a People aka a lamp before the Lord forever for the sake of David. (I Kings 11:36)
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
That stone according to Zechariah 3:9 is the same as the God's Servant the Branch aka Judah whose guilty had been removed in a single day which culminated with the return from exile in Babylon.
Simon had nothing to do with Christianity. Paul was the founder of it if you read Acts 11:26. Peter as a Jew, would have no business in the establishment of an anti-Jewish religion.

I have nerve branches within me. Thankfully, the guilt has been removed from them and also thankfully I did not re-enter into slavery of confusion again. The return from confusion is quite beautiful. As a Jeu, one inner rather than outer...I can be aware of such. I know my inner court genealogy, the outer court is irrelevant.

The house of Is Ra El is my mind made whole. It would be no different if a literal country were named Yinyang by mankind and deemed special in some way possessing a sick amount of pride over mere land.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
HaShem never divorced Judah which is now the new Israel.
If you read Zechariah 11:10, it says the covenant made with all people is broken, i.e. the Abrahmic covenant.
Replacement Theology is the basis of the NT
That is well off, lets dissect it....
  • Yeshua in the synoptic gospels divorces Israel, and says that the faithful are chosen to be within the Messianic age....
    That doesn't mean Christians either, it means those who are enlightened saints.
  • The gospel of John ascribes that salvation/jesus was sent to the Jews, thus making them still a chosen people.
  • According to Acts Simon says that jesus came to save the Jews by his death.
  • Paul teaches that Christians are grafted onto the house of Isreal, which are first inline, thus still a chosen people.
  • Not aware of anything in James, and Jude.
  • Revelations has it that out of the tribes of Israel the enlightened saints are chosen.
So clearly the only one causing it is Yeshua; as it is prophesied in the Tanakh, and really the only one with the authority to do so.
he never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.
Luke 12:3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

There are loads of verses indicating Yeshua knew the gospel would go global, as does the Tanakh. ;)
See what I mean?
From Yeshua's parables, not from Paul, John and Simon, who seem determined that the children of Israel are still chosen, and do not understand how prophecy fits together. :innocent:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Virgin birth is literal. there is no symbolism behind it as we see no symbolic use in Hebrew. may you point out where ?

Otherwise Archangel Gabriel described birth of our Lord that Mary said yes to. He described it as virgin.

Marriage is heavily involved with family. if any woman was to become pregnant. the family knew. furthermore - Joseph would have known.

Jewish tradition is tricky. way I have heard it explain - Joseph and Mary were wed., but there is a period of time in which the couple is together prior to being "legal" married. it's difficult to explain but I mention a book earlier which will help with this - I think it's in there.

If not I'm sure it may be found.

Let's not forget how scary and scandalous any pregnancy would have been out side of marriage.
I'm not trying at all to be sarcastic but I do believe that if I believed in a virgin birth then I'm likely to believe in just about anything, especially from a Jewish perspective.

Joseph and Mary were "betrothed", which is a time period of adjustment minus sexual relations. Technically, they're "married" of sorts, but the marriage has not yet been "consummated". If Mary had not been a virgin at the official marriage at the end of that period through what is called the "showing the blood", Joseph would have had the option of leaving her, and he would not have to get a "get" (an official divorce paper).

The issue of the "virgin birth" may have been symbolic so that it could been related back to what's found in Isaiah, even though the word used there does not directly translate out to being "virgin" but actually is best translated as "young maiden".
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Mary and Joseph both also were descendants of David but tribe goes though the Fathers side
Jesus was prophet , priest and king

Jesus was also a priest on the order of Melchizadek (a priest king) ... see the mini drama in Psalm 109 - 110
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Mary and Joseph both also were descendants of David but tribe goes though the Fathers side
Jesus was prophet , priest and king

Jesus was also a priest on the order of Melchizadek (a priest king) ... see the mini drama in Psalm 109 - 110
Actually there's no way to confirm or deny their heritage because the vast majority of the lineage records were destroyed during the Babylonian Exile, roughly 500 years before Jesus was born.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The official record would be gone but... that doens't mean individuals didn't know who their line was and likely the line of Mary was given in Luke and Joseph in Matthew
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The official record would be gone but... that doens't mean individuals didn't know who their line was and likely the line of Mary was given in Luke and Joseph in Matthew
Most people couldn't read nor write back then, plus people and families did not have access to 500 years of family history at their fingertips. Even today in this modern country where literacy is high, can you give me the names of some of your relatives that lived 500 years ago?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Sorry people, but it's either ''messianic'', or 'not messianic''.
the NT is talking about the messianic age/return of Jesus, /or some believe another,, Messiah.
Some churches don't seem to have the 'return'of Jesus, or a messaih. but that's clearly a misundertdtaning of the NT
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Most people couldn't read nor write back then, plus people and families did not have access to 500 years of family history at their fingertips. Even today in this modern country where literacy is high, can you give me the names of some of your relatives that lived 500 years ago?
I'm not sure you are giving credit to the capacity of the human mind when it is important. My 6 grandchildren can name all major events in order from the last 6,000 years--the youngest being in 2nd grade.

I don't think the "begats" were all made up names. Do you?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm not trying at all to be sarcastic but I do believe that if I believed in a virgin birth then I'm likely to believe in just about anything, especially from a Jewish perspective. .

Can I assume that the story of Abraham and Isaac, in your view, is just a story?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm not sure you are giving credit to the capacity of the human mind when it is important. My 6 grandchildren can name all major events in order from the last 6,000 years--the youngest being in 2nd grade.
LOL! I can't remember what I did yesterday?! BTW, can you name your ancestors by name 500 years ago?

I don't think the "begats" were all made up names. Do you?
The genealogies in Torah don't exactly match, but I'll cut them some slack on that. To deal with your question, my guess is that they were derived from oral traditions, especially since taking it literally doesn't make a great deal of sense at the earliest end (Adam & Eve +), plus the issue of time and distance makes such a process highly unlikely.

If I'm being too vague, I can explain-- I hope.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Can I assume that the story of Abraham and Isaac, in your view, is just a story?
Maybe-- maybe not. It's a myth (doesn't mean false), so the importance to me is what's being taught here.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
LOL! I can't remember what I did yesterday?! BTW, can you name your ancestors by name 500 years ago?
By all means.... NO! But then again, that isn't important to me.

:) I can, however, give you a big memorized list of Bible verses. That's important to me.


The genealogies in Torah don't exactly match, but I'll cut them some slack on that. To deal with your question, my guess is that they were derived from oral traditions, especially since taking it literally doesn't make a great deal of sense at the earliest end (Adam & Eve +), plus the issue of time and distance makes such a process highly unlikely.

If I'm being too vague, I can explain-- I hope.
Not vague at all. But didn't you just establish my point? How can there be oral tradition if it isn't memorized? :rolleyes:
 
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