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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Like all relationships, it started with a meeting. My first encounter with God was as a young child. A situation that caused me great distress made me go to the only one I knew could help. He did in such a personal way that I never forgot it. From that day on, I knew God was real.

After fruitless years in the church, I felt distant from that God I knew had answered my childish prayer. I wanted to find him and when JW's knocked on my door, I was not expecting to have them introduce him to me and have all my questions answered. But gradually as we explored God's word together, I felt myself being drawn to the Bible's message and also to its author. The more I learned about Jehovah and his son, the closer I felt to both of them.

I talk to God freely, all day long, as if he is there with me as a constant companion. I feel the need to thank him even for small blessings and to to ask him for his spirit to direct my decisions....to strengthen those who suffer and to help those who experience life's hardships to cope with loss or tragedy.

Relationships are always two way and I have experienced God in my life in so many large and small ways, that to defend him and his truth is a lifelong commitment.
Deeje,

Thanks for your wonderful reply on how you explored God's word. Sorry again for my question, the word "do" shouldn't be there. I'm asking how to have a relationship with God.:) May I know what are those questions that you asked on that day?

Thanks
 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Really?...and where will I find that in the forum rules?....and where does that leave the other posters here who have no credentials to flash and make themselves sound important?
eghfal.gif
Deeje,

I like those two cartoon characters. :D
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John 10;27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

They reason from words? That is what is being taught. (reasoning and listening are not the same or is that what I must believe to be Christian, in your opinion?)


John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

They follow mankind's understanding of The Word? That is what is being taught.


John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-

They know him? He isn't even present according to what they teach.


John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

One flock? There are 33,000 denominations.



2 John 1:10
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
I'm having trouble with my PC, so bear with me. All mothers have a continual dialogue going on with the baby or babies they carry in their womb. Any medical research will show you there is a continual action and reaction between the two taking place.

1. Continual action and reaction is not fellowship. Fellowship entails verbally exchanging ideas, thoughts, and feelings. This is why Theophilus specifically stated, "...that at first God [The Father] was alone and the Word in Him...". Tough to have fellowship by yourself.

The interesting question is whether he would be willing to attribute any change to God. The idea of emanation's certainly does suggest God changing.

2.This is precisely what Theophilus, Isaiah 43:10-11, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14 suggests.

However, Plotinus and other emanation thinkers insisted on the immutability of God. They viewed the heavily bodies, the sun, for example, as having a permanent essence and therefore remaining unchanged by their emanations, which we now know not to be true.

3. The rhetoric of Philosophers and Theologians have some value, but like I've been emphasizing throughout our discussion, scripture is my authority for doctrine. It is the ultimate filtering source for truth (John 17:17).

Inserting an "a" into the Prologue to Jn. does in fact break the rules. There is no question about it. That is purely the situation I am concerned with here. Whether or not translations of other passages does or does not break the rule is of no interest to me, and , as far as I am concerned, totally irrelevant here.

4. If you are going to implement rules, then an honest and unbiased translator should consistently apply them. Deliberately cherry picking verses to apply or not apply an obvious grammar rule is deceptive, creates confusion for readers, and exposes the translator's unwanted bias.

I gather you are interested in a kind of social theory of the Trinity. God is a cosmic society or committee of three gods, three unique personalities. The oneness of God is in the fact they all work together in perfect harmony. While that idea does have merits, and has been adopted by more than one contemporary theologian, it is too suggestive of polytheism for me to be comfortable with it. Yes, we are all nervous about putting in an "s," as that seems to compromise the strict monotheism of the Bible. Also, in process metaphysics, the many always become one. In each of our moments of self-formulation, we begin as a manyness, absorbing the many personalities out there, which we synthesize into one concrete unity of feeling, which is the self. So I have no trouble thinking of god as a synthesis of personalities. However, the process cannot stop at just three personalities , at just this manyness. The many become one. Thus, there is a further step where they become one overarching personality, which is the one God.

5. Not exactly. Since scripture indicates the pre-incarnate and post-resurrected Christ was and is the Holy Spirit (Isa 63:9-10; 2 Corinthians 3:17) who also existed as a human, I believe the Godhead consists of two personalities with three existences. I call it Tribinitarianism. Scripture is silent on anything beyond that, which is where the philosophers and metaphysics take over and propose a myriad of theories.

Whether there is or isn't realm of angelic beings isn't the question here, at least, not the question I am interested in. Either way, the Bible is making the point there is but one God in charge. Given that is the case, teh question I am focusing on is what meaning can we give the Trinity. Are we to affirm it, and if so, why and how? Are we to deny it, and if so why and how?

I agree.

BTW here is a snapshot of the forum editor window with my current reply. It illustrates how to separate points with quotes for ease of reference and to avoid any misunderstandings.

https://postimage.org/app.php
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1.God [The Father] was alone and the Word in Him...". Tough to have fellowship by yourself.

scripture is my authority for doctrine. It is the ultimate filtering source for truth (John 17:17).

The word was in God in the Beginning and is it Scripture?

John 17:17

John 1:1

John 14:6
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I see that this is a very serious problem for the Congregation of God. I think it was you who said you obey no authority, and I asked you if you believe Scripture is an authority and you did not answer me.

Jesus Christ is my final authority. I do not know why there are very, very few of us who obey The Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ's name as The Final Authority.

Why does nobody correct them who make listen mean reason?

You are all REASONING for your doctrine.

https://dailyverses.net/listening

John 10:27

You quoted ashkat but posted my reply. Which one of us did you want to address?

The word was in God in the Beginning and is it Scripture?

John 17:17

John 1:1

John 14:6

Out of the three, the only scripture relevant to your question is John 1:1. It specifically states the Word was "with" or "toward" [pros] God not "in" God. The Greek term for "in" [en] applies to the point in time which the Word was "with" God. The emphasis of my reply to ashkat was the fact God was alone at some point in time before He produced the son.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You quoted ashkat but posted my reply. Which one of us did you want to address?



Out of the three, the only scripture relevant to your question is John 1:1. It specifically states the Word was "with" or "toward" [pros] God not "in" God. The Greek term for "in" [en] applies to the point in time which the Word was "with" God. The emphasis of my reply to ashkat was the fact God was alone at some point in time before He produced the son.
Is it because you call yourself The Congregation of God? That was not intended. I think it means all Jesus believers.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Is it because you call yourself The Congregation of God? That was not intended. I think it means all Jesus believers.

You should change your username to "RiddlemeChristian". It seems most of your posts are riddles that we have to sit here and try to figure out . :)
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You quoted ashkat but posted my reply. Which one of us did you want to address?



Out of the three, the only scripture relevant to your question is John 1:1. It specifically states the Word was "with" or "toward" [pros] God not "in" God. The Greek term for "in" [en] applies to the point in time which the Word was "with" God. The emphasis of my reply to ashkat was the fact God was alone at some point in time before He produced the son.
I see. I mined his quote.
He said: scripture is my authority for doctrine. It is the ultimate filtering source for truth (John 17:17).
You said: scriptures are my final authority

Sorry about that.

I should warn you that Jesus is the final authority and Jesus is not scripture. You have: The Father, that is one, you have the son, that is two, you have The Holy Spirit, that is three, and you have scripture, that is four.

I am sticking with three.

The scriptures make up a text book. It is not an authority. It just isn't.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I actually don't remember who said scripture, "It is the ultimate filtering source for truth". (The Jehovah's Witnesses teach it.)

I would like to change two words and trust it is true. It is the ultimate filtering source agent for of truth

It is my opinion if you think there is no difference between source and agent, and between for and of you have no business teaching the truth.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"The Bible is the ultimate authority"; "It is the ultimate filtering source for truth"

Matthew 12:36 Luke 6:45

Tell me, how can you listen to what the Spirit says at the same time you are listening to what was written?

I believe the Bible is for checking if what you hear harmonizes with what was actually written under the inspiration of God. Translations were not written under the inspiration of God. The Lord might have inspired someone to write, but language can not rightly be conveyed from one language to another. You know that, but you belie it by your teaching that the modern version follows the inspired word of God version, without changes in meaning.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
To become a Christian, you have to obey Christ's teachings before you can claim to be "born again". Not all have the "heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) I am sure you have your own definition of what that means for you, but we don't agree with it...so no common ground on that score.

Is the letter from Paul to the Hebrews written to "two" different class of people? Is the first half of the letter to Jesus' anointed brothers and the second half written to.....brothers? Are not Jesus' anointed brothers your leaders?

Hebrews 3:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling,

Hebrews 13:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:17 (ESV Strong's) 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls,

Hebrews 13:22 (ESV Strong's) 22 I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly.

Where did the letter change from talking about "brothers" with a heavenly calling, and "brothers" who don't.

In verse 7, was Paul telling the heaven bound "brothers" to remember their leaders?

In verse 17, was Paul telling the heaven bound brothers to obey their leaders?

In verse 22, did Paul switch back to talking to the heaven bound "brothers"?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
An apostate to us is one who defects from their spiritual family after learning the truth from God's word...like Peter describes....
2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV
"20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

This is how God views it.

That is how God stated it, Deeje, not how God views it. The “statement” we get from reading scripture. The “view” is through your Watchtower prism. In other words, God’s word and the Watchtower’s view are not by necessity the same.

Let’s focus on the Watchtower view and examine it critically by looking at God’s word in verse 20:

For if, they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…”​

This verse describes an individual who has rebuked or turned away from the world. Do you agree?

Now let’s continue with the verse:

“...they are AGAIN entangled in them and overcome, the LAST STATE has become worse for them than the FIRST”.

So this verse describes TWO states of apostasy, not one. The first is when they turned away from the world, the second when they turned away from God.

Quite simply, you can’t have one without the other, and I don’t understand how you can label one group “apostate” without labeling the other group (yourselves) the same.

I like the part where you stated: “An apostate is one who defects from his spiritual family...” The important thing to remember here is that there are two “spiritual families”, not one, and you are either an apostate of one or the other. You cannot belong to Christ and be a spiritual member of the world, and you cannot be a spiritual member of the world and belong to Christ. Do you agree with this?

When I look at your entire sentence, I see you agreeing with me:

“An apostate to us is one who defects from their spiritual family after learning the truth from God's word...like Peter describes...”

At this point, the person has defected (apostatized) from the religious/worldly spiritual darkness after learning God’s truth. He is a member of God's family. Am I correct?

You then provided scripture to support your position, which was excellent.

But then you provide a “view” which appears at odds with what you stated before, the scripture provided, and to which I take issue. The verses simply tell us the story of a person who left the darkness, entered the light, but then decided to re-enter the dark again. He first becomes an apostate when he rebukes the darkness, but continues to be an apostate when he rebukes the light. The verse is not telling us it's bad to be an apostate (How could he have ever become a Christian otherwise?) the verse is telling us it's even worse for those who rebuke God after coming to know Him than those who never knew Him before. BTW, this verse states nothing about joining and leaving religions, but of coming to know and leave Christ.

As such I see nothing in the verses quoted that gives Witnesses justification or license to label “Apostate!” on the backs of those leaving the organization unless they slap it with equal gusto on the foreheads of those entering, and while I appreciate the fact you took time to describe what you believe, I was simply trying to find out why.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How can you believe the Bible for "anything" if you believe the Bible is wrong?
You are not paying attention. The Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, the LIVING Jesus Christ, can teach me which is right and which is wrong.
Why. pray tell, is your Jesus mute?

John 10:27
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You should change your username to the "RiddlemeChristian". It seems most of your posts are riddles that we have to sit here and try to figure out . :)
Interesting. Like Jesus spoke? Oh, sorry, did you and @djhwoodwerks mean it in an insulting way? I am not insulted. What, he didn't say it too? OK. I can be wrong.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The word was in God in the Beginning and is it Scripture?

John 17:17

John 1:1

John 14:6
I have noticed that you did not answer me. Did I miss it?

Was the Word that was in the beginning with God the scripture of the Bible? How is that possible?

There is a lot in scripture which warns wicked people. I could be wrong, but with God in the beginning there were no wicked people. Were there?

By the way, I suspect that, according to The Holy Spirit, wicked does not mean sin (though it can), it means wrong.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/wrong?s=t
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Interesting. Like Jesus spoke? Oh, sorry, did you and @djhwoodwerks mean it in an insulting way? I am not insulted. What, he didn't say it too? OK. I can be wrong.

No. I did not mean it insultingly. Did you not see the smiley emoticon at the end? To illustrate how difficult it is to interpret your responses at times, this is something similar to how you would respond --"Insulting meant, not I . Smiley emoticon you did not see.
 
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