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What the Heck is Going on in France with the Burkini??

Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
George-ananda said:
What gives people the right to tell that woman how much flesh needs to be revealed to be legal on a beach? Do you believe in freedom in France? At least Saudi Arabia and Iran acknowledge they are Islamic countries and thereby restrict certain freedoms.
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I think that its more that the French are concerned about a direct challenge to their form of government, so its a political maneuver not really a change in their opinion about freedom. I don't think they particularly care about the suits. As for freedom it is an ideal in France, but it requires that people living in France believe in freedom. If the people don't believe in it, then the system stops supporting freedom; so they are willing to game the system in order to counter another force that is gaming the system. Its like if you are playing basketball and the other team starts fouling whenever the ref is not looking. You may start counter fouling. Anyway I am not French and this may not be literally what the French are thinking.
 
AnnaCzereda

AnnaCzereda

Active Member
George-ananda said:
I don't see how France can consider themselves one of the 'free' countries of the world (maybe they don't want to be anymore). They allow scores of Muslims to legally immigrate to their country and then they deny them the freedom of dress that infringes on no one else!?
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It's a sign of desperation, I think. Completely ridiculous, in my opinion. It won't stop terrorism but will only embitter the Muslim population even more.

As for France being a "free" country, democracy in the Western European countries and the EU in general leaves much to be desired.
 
Aquitaine

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Banning the Burkini seems like a bizarre knee-jerk reaction. But then again I've heard the French aren't big on public displays of religion.
 
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
George-ananda said:
This picture and article just floored me.

Birkini Illegal


I don't see how France can consider themselves one of the 'free' countries of the world (maybe they don't want to be anymore). They allow scores of Muslims to legally immigrate to their country and then they deny them the freedom of dress that infringes on no one else!?

I am very interested to hear from anyone that agrees with this policy.

Coincidentally, last night I happened to read about actress Brigitte Bardot having been charged with an 'inciting hate' crime for saying things regarding Muslims that would just be within the normal range of free speech debate in the USA.
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They're similar to Saudi Arabia, one forcing to wear and the other forcing to take off.:)
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
jonathan180iq said:
Personally, it's a little heavy handed. I should be able to wear whatever I want wherever I want, like a boss.

Culturally, though, I don't have a problem with it. That whole religious principle is a vestige of an ancient ideology that needs to go the way of the dodo bird.
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If only it could. Godforsaken traditionalists.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Flankerl said:
The city of Nice made it illegal to dress in a Burkini at their beach. Quite simple actually.
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I know they DID make it illegal, but the question is if it is a good law that makes such dress illegal. I say 'No'.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
The Burkini Ban

What: "A Cannes ordinance forbidding the use of full-body, head-covering swimsuits sometimes worn by Muslim women."

Why: "beachwear which ostentatiously displays religious affiliation, when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks, is liable to create risks of disrupting public order, which it is necessary to prevent."
Source

The ruling on the ban: "A French administrative tribunal on Monday upheld a burqini ban decided by a Riviera resort which was one of a growing number of towns to outlaw the body-concealing Islamic swimsuit.

The reasoning behind the ruling: ". . . the ban [was] necessary, appropriate and proportionate" to prevent public disorder after a succession of jihadists attacks in France, including one in Nice on July 14th.
The burqini was "liable to offend the religious convictions or (religious) non-convictions of other users of the beach," and "be felt as a defiance or a provocation exacerbating tensions felt by" the community, it added.
Source

The court said the ban was legal under a law which prohibits people neglecting common rules on "relations between public authorities and private individuals" on the basis of religion.
The judge noted the ban came "in the context of the state of emergency and recent Islamist attacks, notably in Nice a month ago".
source



.
 
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FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Skwim said:
The Burkini Ban

What: "A Cannes ordinance forbidding the use of full-body, head-covering swimsuits sometimes worn by Muslim women."

Why: "beachwear which ostentatiously displays religious affiliation, when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks, is liable to create risks of disrupting public order, which it is necessary to prevent."
Source

The ruling on the ban: "A French administrative tribunal on Monday upheld a burqini ban decided by a Riviera resort which was one of a growing number of towns to outlaw the body-concealing Islamic swimsuit.

The reasoning behind the ruling: ". . . the ban [was] necessary, appropriate and proportionate" to prevent public disorder after a succession of jihadists attacks in France, including one in Nice on July 14th.
The burqini was "liable to offend the religious convictions or (religious) non-convictions of other users of the beach," and "be felt as a defiance or a provocation exacerbating tensions felt by" the community, it added.
Source

The court said the ban was legal under a law which prohibits people neglecting common rules on "relations between public authorities and private individuals" on the basis of religion.
The judge noted the ban came "in the context of the state of emergency and recent Islamist attacks, notably in Nice a month ago".
source

.
Click to expand...

For more protection they should ban the churches, mosques .....etc, for public safety.
 
gsa

gsa

Well-Known Member
George-ananda said:
This picture and article just floored me.

Birkini Illegal


I don't see how France can consider themselves one of the 'free' countries of the world (maybe they don't want to be anymore). They allow scores of Muslims to legally immigrate to their country and then they deny them the freedom of dress that infringes on no one else!?

I am very interested to hear from anyone that agrees with this policy.

Coincidentally, last night I happened to read about actress Brigitte Bardot having been charged with an 'inciting hate' crime for saying things regarding Muslims that would just be within the normal range of free speech debate in the USA.
Click to expand...

I do not agree with the policy. Were I a lawmaker in France, I would presumably not vote for it.

But it is the law, and it is a respectable law.

I am going to say something that a lot of people who are European want to say but usually feel that they cannot say: You do not get to dictate what Europeans do,and you do not get to make Europeans bad for standing up for European values. This is France, not Saudi Arabia. France gets to demand a certain minimum standard of public decency, even if that does not comport with Islamist norms, which are among the most indecent in the world.

European values are better than Islamic values. Yup, you heard that right. At a minimum, Europeans feel that they are. And I agree: They're worth defending. We should not apologize for it any more. And I'm not going to, and I hope others don't. If Muslims want to have an Islamist pride parade, they can do it in Mecca.
 
fantome profane

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Brickjectivity said:
I'm partial to Bill Warner's view of the situation. He's very convincing. Islam is not strictly a religion but is more like a political system with a religious aspect. It opposes the French politic and captures land in France. Blocking the burkini is a political decision to keep France French. In other words the political arm of Islam has pushed and the French are pushing back. Notice that in Australia its now illegal to criticize people based on their religion? Notice how in the UK there are areas where non-Muslims can't go yet that are paid for by taxes? Well the French don't want their beaches to become like that. Apparently they are concerned about it.
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I disagree with Warner's assessment, but even if he is correct in his view there has to be a better way to fight back against a political movement than having armed men force women to strip down and show more flesh. Yes I know when I say it that way it sounds like fun, but it is still wrong.

And are there really places in the UK where non-Muslims can't go? Call me skeptical.
 
Jumi

Jumi

Well-Known Member
gsa said:
I am going to say something that a lot of people who are European want to say but usually feel that they cannot say: You do not get to dictate what Europeans do,and you do not get to make Europeans bad for standing up for European values. This is France, not Saudi Arabia. France gets to demand a certain minimum standard of public decency, even if that does not comport with Islamist norms, which are among the most indecent in the world.
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I don't think it's a good law, but the situation in France is different and you are right on this: it's up to them to decide what's best. Not us other Europeans, Americans or anyone else. I think the reasons for the law are being interpreted wrongly. Part of the reason for the ban is that tensions are high and they believe more violence like this month is likely without the ban. The ban doesn't solve the root problem, which is violence.
 
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Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
fantome profane said:
I disagree with Warner's assessment, but even if he is correct in his view there has to be a better way to fight back against a political movement than having armed men force women to strip down and show more flesh. Yes I know when I say it that way it sounds like fun, but it is still wrong.

And are there really places in the UK where non-Muslims can't go? Call me skeptical.
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I also would object to having that happen and don't think French guards will be stripping offenders. More likely they would arrest them, hand out citations or close beaches.

Yes it is true, and these areas are called No-go areas in UK. Here's an arch bishop arguing against using force to integrate them: http://archbishopcranmer.com/muslim-ghettos-and-the-muscular-approach-to-integration/ He feels that moral relativism is the real problem.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
fantome profane said:
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Wow! I think the citation is probably legal, but I think these police may be sued if it is proven that they didn't give these women the choice to leave the beach. If they are giving them the choice to leave that is one thing, and if they are making them strip regardless that is another. Its not clear in the video.
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
She looks like a person just wearing clothing on a beach. I think it's outrageous that 1) She's not allowed to wear whatever she is comfortable in (which turns out to just be a head scarf, leggings and a tunic) and 2) They made her strip some of her clothes off.

How this is supposed to stop terrorist attacks is beyond me. And I don't see how this is all that different from forcing a woman to wear a hijab or a burka, or anything at all, really.
 
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Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I wonder if the Froggies ever considered that such oppression
of Muslims just might lead to more animosity & terrorism?

And to those who say rules are rules....obey or leave.....
What if the beach required Jews to wear yellow stars?
 
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Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
I wonder if the Froggies ever considered that such oppression
of Muslims just might lead to more animosity & terrorism?

And to those who say rules are rules....obey or leave.....
What if the beach required Jews to wear yellow stars?
Click to expand...
That happened, and Jews wore them. You have a problem with yellow stars? What about when French children are forced to love their country and language? Why aren't you crying out against that oppression?
 
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