Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

james2ko · Aug 14, 2016

Deeje said:
@james2ko

Independent thinking is what humankind into this mess. I will swap independent thinking for spirit directed guidance by appointed shepherds any day. Who is 'keeping watch over your soul'? (Hebrews 13:17) To whom do you "submit"?......Yourself?

LOL....and your little church is the one blessed with this a sacred knowledge, yet you ridicule my brotherhood? Are you sure there are enough of them to qualify as a "great multitude" who are said to "come out of the great tribulation"? (Revelation 7:9, 10, 13, 14)

The fact that you never mention what your church is called leads me to believe that you have something to hide.....

Sounds like a cognitive dissonance response. I get that an awful lot on this forum...Hope the ad hominem attack made you feel better. I get those often too..

My organization is not the only little church blessed with this knowledge. Since your head is stuck in the WT papyrus instead of the scriptures, it just seems that way to you. Besides, I never claimed the two Jehovah doctrine as absolute truth. But I just proved your organization's interpretation of the existence of only one deity named Jehovah is not.

I'm not doing anything different than Christ did to the self-righteous, arrogant Pharisees. Perhaps you should one day consider putting into practice your own signature verse.

URAVIP2ME · Aug 14, 2016

djhwoodwerks said:
I sure do believe in hell fire! I don't believe Jesus would warn us so much about going to hell if it weren't a bad place. What does it matter if we are annihilated or get to stay in heaven or earth? If we are annihilated, we won't know anything so there will be no regret. We won't miss anything.

So who's "influence" was restraining the man of lawlessness after the apostles died?

The composite ' man of lawlessness ' - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 - is exposed in Scripture - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 - as the false clergy.
Genuine ' wheat ' Christian's influence restrain the fake ' weed/tares' Christians.

What is your definition of ' biblical hell ' ?
Can you think of anyone righteous who went to hell ?______
The day Jesus died, didn't righteous Jesus go to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 ? ______ (Psalms 16:10)
Jesus taught from the old Hebrew Scriptures which teach sleep in death:
- Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:12-14
So, while in the Bible's hell, then dead Jesus was in a sleep-like unconscious state until God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell.
If the Bible's hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
Doesn't emptied-out hell end up in a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell according to Revelation 20:13-14 ?______
Since Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B - and Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8, then ' second death' is a fitting term for destruction as in the wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7.
Don't the wicked end up loosing out, missing out, on gaining everlasting life ?_______
That means 'missing everything' starting with Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth when even enemy death will be No more ever again - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

ashkat1` · Aug 14, 2016

savagewind said:
Hello. How are you?

The Spirit originates with God. Agree? Was Jesus practicing bigotry whenever he tried to correct anyone? Was Paul? Was John the Baptist?

I am fine. How are you?
Correcting people is one thing, attacking their character is something very different. The fact that some fellow Christian's POV does not square with yours should not be taken to mean that your opponent is some sort of lost soul or child of the Devil or anything like that. Too often, Christians have fallen into that trap and the result has been bigotry and oppressive intolerance. I remind everyone that Christianity is no simple easy religion that , the Bible is no simple, easy book to read, the Holy Spirit does not cause a miracle by which we re no longer human and subject to error, and that in the faith-revelatory situation, we can get easily confused.

ashkat1` · Aug 14, 2016

URAVIP2ME said:
Isn't Yahweh from the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH ?________
Don't we use the accepted English word for God's Son in English as Jesus instead of the Hebrew ?_______
So, why wouldn't people use the accepted English word for God's name ?
The King James Version at Psalms 83:18 (Psalms 97:9) uses the accepted English pronunciation of God's hallowed be thy name.

Jehovah is not an Anglicized version of YHWH, As I said, it is based on a serious mistranslation. This is Hebrew 101 material. You can call God what you want. I'm just saying Jehovah is not anywhere near the original biblical name.

Hockeycowboy · Aug 14, 2016

ashkat1` said:
Good point. However, I am curious how you handle other issues that might crop up, issues that aren't that lethal, for example, doctrinal issues such as baptism, the Trinitarian formulations, etc.

Wel, first of all, those who study the Bible with JW's - which is what/who I am - it takes usually about 6 mos. to a year, for a person to understand the teachings, everything being backed up with the Scriptures.

(BTW, it's all free, w/ no obligation, at a time and place convenient for you. One study could last 15 minutes to 1 hour, at a time...student's discretion.)

All issues and beliefs that one may have to crop up, are discussed during the Bible Study. So, everyone who gets baptized, already has their questions answered. We do a lot of reasoning from God's Word with people, using all the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation!

Take care.

ashkat1` · Aug 14, 2016

Hockeycowboy said:
Wel, first of all, those who study the Bible with JW's - which is what/who I am - it takes usually about 6 mos. to a year, for a person to understand the teachings, everything being backed up with the Scriptures.

(BTW, it's all free, w/ no obligation, at a time and place convenient for you. One study could last 15 minutes to 1 hour, at a time...student's discretion.)

All issues and beliefs that one may have to crop up, are discussed during the Bible Study. So, everyone who gets baptized, already has their questions answered. We do a lot of reasoning from God's Word with people, using all the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation!

Take care.

OK, thanks for the info. What OI hear you saying is that you rely on the dogmas of your church.

Hockeycowboy · Aug 14, 2016

ashkat1` said:
OK, thanks for the info. What OI hear you saying is that you rely on the dogmas of your church.

I thought you might say that. But one thing that sets us apart in respect to other religions, is our complete neutrality in divisive situations that often result in killing: political, national, or racial.

How can we imitate and obey Christ in loving our brother (or enemy even), if we join in killing them during fighting in a war? It results in our being hated by many -- Hitler couldn't stand us, neither could Stalin -- but also results in having God's blessing and protection. (Jehovah's Witnesses are still around, but Hitler's and Stalin's govt isn't.)

Further......how important do you think it is to worship the right God? Notice Jesus' words at John 4:22-24 and John 20:17; then please read Luke 10:21. If people are not worshipping the *right* One, the truth won't be "revealed" to them. Does that make sense?

ashkat1` · Aug 15, 2016

Hockeycowboy said:
I thought you might say that. But one thing that sets us apart in respect to other religions, is our complete neutrality in divisive situations that often result in killing: political, national, or racial.

How can we imitate and obey Christ in loving our brother (or enemy even), if we join in killing them during fighting in a war? It results in our being hated by many -- Hitler couldn't stand us, neither could Stalin -- but also results in having God's blessing and protection. (Jehovah's Witnesses are still around, but Hitler's and Stalin's govt isn't.)

Further......how important do you think it is to worship the right God? Notice Jesus' words at John 4:22-24 and John 20:17; then please read Luke 10:21. If people are not worshipping the *right* One, the truth won't be "revealed" to them. Does that make sense?

I agree that following Christ means we should be pacifists.
Sure, we all want to worship the "right" God. But there are some real problems here. Just what is the "right" God like? The problem is that the Bible is not a book of metaphysics, tells us very little about how God is built. What we receive are snap shots that often conflict. We have to piece them together ourselves in order to have a unified picture. And that's not easy. Do you want to hold with classical theism, the traditional Christian model or picture of God as he is in his own nature? Many do. However, I and other theologians today have trouble with the doctrines divine immutability and impassibility, and have suggested major alternatives. That doesn't mean I condemn all the classical theists to the Ninth Ring of Hell as lost souls, just that we have a much different metaphysical system in mind today than they had.

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

ashkat1` said:
I am fine. How are you?
Correcting people is one thing, attacking their character is something very different. The fact that some fellow Christian's POV does not square with yours should not be taken to mean that your opponent is some sort of lost soul or child of the Devil or anything like that. Too often, Christians have fallen into that trap and the result has been bigotry and oppressive intolerance. I remind everyone that Christianity is no simple easy religion that , the Bible is no simple, easy book to read, the Holy Spirit does not cause a miracle by which we re no longer human and subject to error, and that in the faith-revelatory situation, we can get easily confused.

I think it would be proper to explain HOW I attacked the character of the "early fathers". I think what I said was that if they did not know the Holy Spirit it can't mean anything but that they did not have The Holy Spirit.
Did I say something else?

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

@ashkat1` Do you find it interesting that you did not answer my other post? You say you question all authority. The Bible is an authority. True? Do you question it?

james2ko · Aug 15, 2016

ashkat1` said:
You can use the name "Jehovah" if you want to. It is customary. However, it does represent a major mistranslation of Scripture, due to a confusion over the vowel indicators. YHWH or Yahweh is the name of God in the Bible.

Yes I want to. Especially when I am having a discussion with a JW. When I speak to Protestants and others, I will use "God" . When I speak to certain Jews, I try to use "The Almighty" . When we have our discussion, I will try to use YHVH as often as possible.

Yoshua · Aug 15, 2016

Deeje said:
Because he isn't just an angel. He is the commander of all the angels. The highest ranking personage in heaven, next to his Father. What do you think an angel is?

I think you need to understand that the "son of God" is the only direct creation of his God and Father. He is "begotten" but in a different way to all of God's other "sons". This is God's unique "firstborn", unlike the angels who were brought into existence by God's son, the Word (Logos) was the very first being to exist...before all other things came into being, he was at his Father's side as his "Master Worker". (Proverbs 8:30, 31) He is the "image" of his Father and reflected his qualities like no other. (Colossians 1:15, 16; Revelation 3:14)

Deeje,

Saying that Michael Archangel is the commander of all angels is still not a valid reason for "only begotten," he's still a spirit being. The "only begotten" is a very special attributes for Jesus, and not for a chief angel. Think about that. You are trying to place Archangel Michael next to the Father, it should be Jesus and not Archangel Michael.

Deeje said:
Who said that the savior couldn't be an angel? In order to redeem mankind, all the savior needed to be was the perfect equivalent of Adam.
A sinless life had to be sacrificed for a sinless life. That was the price to ransom the human race. Jesus didn't need to be God to be the savior.
He had to die like any other human, so if Jesus had been God, no human would have been able to kill him. Do you think mere humans can kill the Almighty?

See? you"re trying to force Archangel Michael--as the Saviour? Can an angel, a messenger of God, or a warring angel, a Saviour? Logically, it is obviously not consistent, and a contradiction. It is God's plan that His Son, Jesus Christ came here as a lamb to be slaughter. Therefore, being a God has no connection.

Thanks

Yoshua · Aug 15, 2016

Deeje said:
Anyone can pray to Jehovah, but unless you are one of his own, obeying the teachings of his son, he will not hear you.

Christendom's hands are full of innocent blood because she involves herself with the wars of the nations.....something God does not sanction and something that no Christian can participate in. (James 4:4; Romans 12:17-21)

When Israel shed blood without God's sanction he said...

"And when you spread out your palms, I hide my eyes from you. Although you offer many prayers, I am not listening; Your hands are filled with blood."

Deeje,

Why? do you think that only JW were His children? Anyone can call Jehovah, anyone can read the Bible and follow the teachings of Christ without an organization. Jesus did not require us to have an organization and a founder--to be a Christian.

Thanks

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

No one can deny that they are reasoning who everyone is. That being is so, it means they are not hearing about who everyone is.
Revelation 2:7

Instead of hearing what the spirit says, they are reasoning about what the spirit said.

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

Yoshua said:
Deeje,

Why? do you think that only JW were His children? Anyone can call Jehovah, anyone can read the Bible and follow the teachings of Christ without an organization. Jesus did not require us to have an organization and a founder--to be a Christian.

Thanks

They believe it is a command of God that we join them.

Hebrews 10:25

1 Corinthians 5:4

Matthew 25:40

They believe that the least of Jesus' brothers who we must do good to are the faithful and discreet slave who Jesus appoints over all of God's belongings.
Matthew 25:34 They believe that to do good to them means to trust them to organize them properly.

They believe that everything of the World is under Satan's rule and to get out from under Satan's rule is to join them and that is the only way.

Revelation 18:4 2 Corinthians 6:17

Yoshua · Aug 15, 2016

Deeje said:
Those raised in the Catholic church have no idea how far they have strayed from what Christ taught. The Jews in Jesus day didn't realize how far Judaism had strayed from the form of worship instituted through Moses either. When Jesus came to seek out "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" most of the nation rejected him, because of adhering to their old comfortable ways. Those satisfied with that apostate system of worship, (that had replaced the original) did not come to Christ. They were among those who cried out for Jesus' blood. (Matthew 27:25)

If Christ returned today, and did not support the current system of Christian worship, they would execute him all over again!

Of course, Christ will not return today therefore we should not prophesy. Christ did it on the cross (once for all) and there will be no "again."

Deeje said:
The early Church followed the example of their ancient Jewish counterparts, which is what Jesus and his apostles had foretold. Apostates began to infiltrate the church towards the end of the first century, but because the apostles were acting as a 'restraint' until the writing of the Christian scriptures was complete, they did not fully succeed. (2 Thess 2:6, 7)

After the last apostle (John) died, the apostasy gained momentum. Following the Jewish example, humans are inclined to follow other humans with a good argument. The Christian faith was so weakened by these apostates posing as Christian leaders that by the time of Constantine the situation was ripe for the introduction of Roman Catholicism. This "universal" religion was declared to be the only religion of the Roman Empire by an Emperor who himself never became a Christian. He was a worshipper of Zeus till the day he died. When you see some Catholic images of Jesus, he looks remarkably like Zeus.

Constantine's whole agenda in reforming the religion of Rome was not to follow Christianity, but to unite his divided empire by blending the two belief systems that were causing division. Pagan Roman sun worship is as visible in Roman Catholicism today as it was then.

In the following images you can see the strong influence of pagan worship under the guise of Christianity.
Images of the sun...the mitre worn by the Pope....the shape of the wafer....the Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's square along with the pagan obelisk....Catholic symbolism, etc.
A Google search will give you more if you want to research this for yourself.

Warnings were given by Jesus Christ, He did not say that His teachings will be corrupted forever. This is why there are Protestants, a reformation I believed that God used certain people to propagate the truth, and not by any founder of a certain organization.

Thanks

djhwoodwerks · Aug 15, 2016

Hockeycowboy said:
How can we imitate and obey Christ in loving our brother (or enemy even), if we join in killing them during fighting in a war?

Witnesses won't go to war to protect their freedom because they "think" they are "loving their brother", yet, when their brother, sister, father, mother or child decides they don't accept the teaching of the slave anymore, they will shun and "hate" them and treat them as if they are dead.

Hockeycowboy said:
It results in our being hated by many -- Hitler couldn't stand us, neither could Stalin -- but also results in having God's blessing and protection. (Jehovah's Witnesses are still around, but Hitler's and Stalin's govt isn't.)

You need to thank the people who had the courage to fight for you! If America and it's allies didn't step in and "go to war" with Hitler and Stalin's government, they would be here and witnesses wouldn't!

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

djhwoodwerks said:
Witnesses won't go to war to protect their freedom because they "think" they are "loving their brother", yet, when their brother, sister, father, mother or child decides they don't accept the teaching of the slave anymore, they will shun and "hate" them and treat them as if they are dead.

You need to thank the people who had the courage to fight for you! If America and it's allies didn't step in and "go to war" with Hitler and Stalin's government, they would be here and witnesses wouldn't!

They can't, won't, or just plain don't understand that sometimes war IS for loving your neighbor. If an evil regime is torturing and killing his brothers, his brothers' wives and their children, does he really believe that to stop the evil regime isn't a loving thing to do?

Maybe pacifists should ask dictators to stop. Has anyone ever just tried asking nicely if they might stop doing bad stuff?

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

Hi @djhwoodwerks Thank you for the like, but just I should tell you that I added a couple of sentences, and they might not be good enough for that like. Don't worry about the little troll. @Deeje doesn't.

savagewind · Aug 15, 2016

@Deeje, Dear lady, I am beginning to wonder if you actually read the posts in which you respond to or are you assuming they are nastiness and responding accordingly?

Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

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