What verses, specifically?
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Trapped People
- Thread starter Bird123
- Start date
But Lot didn't hand over his daughters, did he? Instead, he faced the sex-crazed mob alone, shutting the door behind him. So why did Lot offer his daughters to the mob? The Bible does not directly reveal Lot's thinking. Perhaps Lot hoped to divide the mob, since his daughters were engaged to marry men from the community. He may have hoped relatives or friends of these men would intervene. It may be he reasoned his daughters would not be desired by these homosexual rapists. Whatever Job's motives in this crisis, God views Lot as righteous, and Jehovah always does what is right. (Psalm 145:17) I think many today are quick to judge. As Elihu told Job: "Are you so convinced that you are right that you would say,‘I am more righteous than God'" (Job 35:2)
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Not for doing that, but despite doing that (and despite him having sex with his daughters)
It's still very disturbing that he offered his daughters to be gang raped.
I don't see how as he forced his daughters into a dangerous situation (one that would bring formal charges against parents who did that today - indeed many parents would throw themselves between danger and their children), and he had sex with his daughters (another thing that would bring formal charges against a parent who did that). Lot was a crappy father, and I can not fathom where there is room to consider him "righteous," and by contemporary standards throughout much of the world he would have lost his rights as a parent and he would have been abused himself in prison over what he did to his daughters.
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Father Heathen
Veteran Member
What else than the ones contained within that link?
I agree by today's standards he'd be in prison but the story is a story.
Is it true?
Dunno. Haven't a clue.
I don't read linked-to sites, as a rule.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
It might be a matter of timing. Meaning, when did you want to ask all these questions, during a sermon when everyone wants to hear their pastor speak or during a one-on-one appointment with the pastor? If it was during a sermon, then your questions would be a disruption to everyone else's service.
How do you know that you have the truth and others don't? How do you know that people haven't already considered other people's views?
I do not think Lot forced his daughters into a dangerous situation. The situation was already dangerous to all in Lot's house.
Lot did not initiate sex with his daughters. They got Lot so drunk he was not even aware the act had occurred. His daughters obviously knew he would never willingly do such a thing. "So that night they kept giving their father wine to drink; then the firstborn went in and lay down with her father, but he did not know when she lay down and when she got up." (Genesis 19:33) Their motive was not sexual pleasure, but rather to "preserve offspring." The Bible honestly and frankly reports this incident to explain the origin of two nations, Moab and Ammon, that sprang from Lot through his daughters. Such candor marks the Bible as authentic, IMO.
So, if the guests were starving, and there was nothing to eat, would have been acceptable to offer that little baby in the cradle as a middle eastern delicatess?
So, was that a test of righteousness? If you are ready to kill your child or offer your daughters to the mob, then you are righteous. Is that so?
If that is the case, I seriously hope I am not righteous, whatever that means.
What would have been righteous, in my opinion, is to refute any negotiotation with rapist gangs. Close the door. And do everything to stop them. i am sure God would have stopped them, wouldn't He?
Well, that makes the assumption that angels are males. Not sure whether the question concerning the sex of the angels has been settled.
Incidentally, the whole point is not the justification of what some cultures do. The point is whether God considers righteous someone who does anything of the sort. I make the assumption here that God sense of morality is independent from the mora of the time.
If not, then by that logic, He should tolerate what we do with unwanted embryos, and even declare some mass abortionist as righteous, because hey, this is what we do today. Who is He to interfere with our customs? Why does He get so difficult, all of a sudden?
Ciao
- viole
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Akivah
Well-Known Member
Nope. Almost all of the rules in Judaism don't apply to non-Jews. And for those rules that apply to everyone else, they each decide how they want to live.
Devils don't exist.
No, the reverse in fact. For the beginning of my life, I didn't follow any rules in Judaism. But as I learned and matured, I voluntarily accepted some Laws.
No. It's no one else's business how I choose to live my life.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Throwing your children out as a shield is not something a "righteous man" would do.
Drunkeness is not something a "righteous man" does. Why did he not refuse the wine after a certain point?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Any book can report on such incidents that the book contains without it every actually having happened.
May I suggest to rate the Bible as PG, at least? According to your logic "Debbie does Dallas" is candid, too.
Ciao
- viole
Some of us do, and that is dangerous Some of us don't, and that is an important distinction to make.
Bravery requires a lot of good mental health, so you are most likely to find brave outspoken people when their religion and family successfully encourage good mental health. Loving families and mental discipline, strong friendships and confidence are what make whistle-blowers possible. Your question covers a broad spectrum of people, so you just can't answer it in one fell swoop.
Organized Religion is an attempt to regulate mankind, and coincidentally it intersects with the concept of God. It is not an attempt to understand God, but it may require an understanding of God, often a particular understanding. Your question is too ambitious, because you have only got about 20% of the picture of what 'God' means to different people, what rules are for, etc. There are large numbers of people with extremely different religions, very different rules, very different reasons, lots of silence between the groups.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Yes, he did actually. Read your Bible, heathen!
“Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8).
I agree that a righteous man does not make a practice of becoming drunk. Lot's daughters schemed to have him drink enough wine to attain their goal. The Bible does not say Lot was drunk. Wine can make one sleepy, and we do not know if anything was added to the wine to increase its effect. The Bible doesn't provide these details.
Lot did not throw his daughters out as a shield.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
LOL. He walked his virgin daughters out and said to the mob "please, let me bring them out to you and do whatever you like."
Is that what a normal father would do? Most fathers I know would bolt the lock, grab a bat and tell the gang rapists to get the hell away.
But not this guy, he shoves his daughters out the door and says "do whatever you want to them."
Biblical morality!
When the Bible reports that these events occurred, it is not to titillate or pander. No unnecessary details are provided, IMO. Rather, this and other accounts are included only when necessary.
He offered his daughters, for the possible reasons stated in an earlier post. He did not actually bring his daughters outside to the mob, did he?Yes, he did actually. Read your Bible, heathen!
“Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8).
I believe you know that is not what happened. Anyone interested in the facts can read the account for themselves at Genesis 19:4-11.