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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

JesusBeliever

Active Member
I think that is part of the point. No question about following orders, just whose orders...Jesus said to "love your enemy", but it's hard to do that, if you put yourself in a position to kill someone.

Although, to be honest, I've known a few brothers who were officers. They became Witnesses after the fact.
Hi Hockeycowboy,

A couple of verses came to mind while reading your words this morning:

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9

"And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him." But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have NOT FOUND SUCH GREAT FAITH with anyone in Israel. "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment." Matthew 8:5-13
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
So, to you, ''wisdom'', is like an entity, that can possess you....?
"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:6-13

 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:6-13

I'm not sure if you are reading the dialogue, the context, in which I asked that question. And if some one says ''wisdom'', I have no idea what they mean by that.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure if you are reading the dialogue, the context, in which I asked that question. And if some one says ''wisdom'', I have no idea what they mean by that.
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. James 3:17
Definition: wisdom, insight, skill (human or divine), intelligence.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. James 3:17
Definition: wisdom, insight, skill (human or divine), intelligence.

However, you used the word 'god', earlier, for what you are now calling ''wisdom''. Hence why I asked, is this 'wisdom', a deity to you? Is it what you consider 'god', to be?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
However, you used the word 'god', earlier, for what you are now calling ''wisdom''. Hence why I asked, is this 'wisdom', a deity to you? Is it what you consider 'god', to be?
No. I do not remember calling wisdom God. Wisdom comes from God. It is a gift.

This? If God's true wisdom is in me, God is in me. I don't hear voices from the outside. I hear wisdom whispering on the inside.

I hear the wisdom of God inside me.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suppose wisdom might be considered an angel. Wisdom means how to think, say and do which needs directions and directions come via messages. Angels are messengers and agents for The Holy Spirit.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
I think that is part of the point. No question about following orders, just whose orders...Jesus said to "love your enemy", but it's hard to do that, if you put yourself in a position to kill someone.
Although, to be honest, I've known a few brothers who were officers. They became Witnesses after the fact.


Humph! I never put myself in a position to kill someone.
Never killed anyone.
I sure put myself in a position to BE killed more than a few times.
Listen ---------- poster. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make such rash statements.
I've WATCHED people that killed themselves and was powerless to stop them.
I've HELD people as they died and nothing could be done to help them save give
some human comfort.
I could have used deadly force but CHOSE not to as the circumstances were right
for me to avoid such action. Those situations worked out. Lucky maybe? Don't know.
Some gave up, a few committed suicide.
Ever hold an infant with burns so bad it's yellow fat was dripping from it's burns?
That infants skin stuck to mine.
Hell?
I've been there and it's real. Sometimes I go there again in my dreams even today.
I don't like that one bit.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The will of God is that all be saved to God and to knowledge come.

Exactly! So, to "do" God's will, means you take the knowledge to them.

It says nowhere that God's will is that you don't fight physical evil.

Well, then you're not following Jesus.

If the World had not fought against the domination against freedom, you would be either dead now or at least not free to talk as you do, meet as you do, and believe as you do.

Was the will of God that the World bring down the SS? I think so. You don't?

Yes, the World. (You said it.) And how much of "the world" should Christians play a part in? ---- John 15:19; John 17:16; 1 John 5:19; James 4:4.

And since when are people worshipping God afraid of death? -- Revelation 2:10, "Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

I am sure that you and many others are being taught that to take your freedom for granted is God's will for us.

What a thoughtless, asinine comment. He wants us to be obedient, to Him and His Son. You're making excuses to not even do that! -- 2 Timothy 2:19, "Jehovah knows those who belong to him."

Good bye!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Humph! I never put myself in a position to kill someone.
Never killed anyone.
I sure put myself in a position to BE killed more than a few times.
Listen ---------- poster. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make such rash statements.
I've WATCHED people that killed themselves and was powerless to stop them.
I've HELD people as they died and nothing could be done to help them save give
some human comfort.
I could have used deadly force but CHOSE not to as the circumstances were right
for me to avoid such action. Those situations worked out. Lucky maybe? Don't know.
Some gave up, a few committed suicide.
Ever hold an infant with burns so bad it's yellow fat was dripping from it's burns?
That infants skin stuck to mine.
Hell?
I've been there and it's real. Sometimes I go there again in my dreams even today.
I don't like that one bit.

Honestly, I'm very sorry you experienced all of that! It can wreak havoc on one's emotional and mental health. But you chose that career, right? You could have been put in a position to be taking life instead of saving it. Maybe you should've chose being a fireman? I know many JW's who do that.

Take care.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What a thoughtless, asinine comment. He wants us to be obedient, to Him and His Son. You're making excuses to not even do that! -- 2 Timothy 2:19, "Jehovah knows those who belong to him."

Good bye!
Good bye because you know it is true. I know you guys hide behind, "I didn't say YOU were asinine, I said what you say is asinine". Well, why not meditate some more on Matthew 5:22

Modern freedom was WON or don't they teach you history at the Kingdom Hall?

So to say those brave men and women who fought for the freedom of Europe were wrong is thoughtless and unkind.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Honestly, I'm very sorry you experienced all of that! It can wreak havoc on one's emotional and mental health. But you chose that career, right? You could have been put in a position to be taking life instead of saving it. Maybe you should've chose being a fireman? I know many JW's who do that.

Take care.
Oh yes! Jehovah's Witness are known for rewriting history. Maybe you should have done something else??????????????Oh man.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Just one of many sites.
I have no idea what J.W. dogma is concerning this topic.
Can someone shed some light & perhaps some scripture?

I doubt there are many, if any J.W.s active on this site.
Apparently being a posting member here is frowned upon by the W.T.B.&T.
Society.
Can anyone shed some insight on that issue?
I was associated with a local congregation of J.W.s long, long, ago for a number
of years.
I was out of work and had an opportunity to join the local police force
where I served with distinction, became a detective, Chief of Investigations,
then Lieutenant and S.W.A.T. commander.
I suffered 13 serious injuries, 6 commendations for valor, numerous community service awards, and disabled with my 4th broken back.
Then I rehabbed, entered college, earned 2 degrees, and retired again from
G.M.
I was shunned by my former J.W. friends for all that.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The police service and the college education!!!!!!
Almost NO J.W. gets a college degree because the "time is short" so time should be
spent spreading the good news.
Damn! Really?
Upon learning I joined the force some J.W. elders caught me after attending a
service and took me to the basement office and scolded me for being part of
"this world" and carrying a firearm.
Never mind that I served over 2 decades and NEVER fired a shot at another
human!
Never mind that I knew J.W. members that served in Viet Nam and killed people
AFTER being baptized Witnesses. Those brave men were also disfellowshiped
but later reinstated after being shunned for a full year.
I have NOTHING against that religion or the members to this day but understand
that I am a bit "sour" over my bad experiences.
RE: my sig line, "learning more about Jehovah".
I believe that is God's name.
Sorry for the rant. Evidently I have some repressed resentments.
Hi Jeager,

Wow. What a nice profile of you as police and SWAT. I think this is because of JW's beliefs that they are forbidden to serve your country. They control people rather than God is the one who control your life as a Christian. I just thinking why there are warriors in the Old testament that God has appointed. You can be a police and a believer of Christ.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
The GB have never claimed to be "inspired".....that is for scripture and the writings of the GB are not scripture. That is why we smile when people dig up old publications that are no longer relevant to our current understanding. That is like digging up old newspapers. Interesting to see where we were and how far we have progressed.
Jesus appointed the "faithful and discreet slave" to feed us our "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45)
They have done an awesome job and we love them. If Jesus didn't love them, he would not have appointed them.

Don't worry, if you are looking for excuses to stay out of the congregation, and not be told what to do by the GB, then God will let you find as many as you need.
Hi Deeje,

I did not catch up because of my 3 days seminar last week. It is nice to hear that the GB is not the inspired or the Scripture. I just want to take an example with a beggar who found a Bible, and started knowing Jesus Christ because of his interest to know Him. Eventually, he acknowledged it, and gradually have changes in his life. What do you think of this beggar's faith pertaining to his salvation and knowing Christ? Could he continue to get to know Jesus Christ without Gb or JW's church organization?

Thanks
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hi Hockeycowboy,

A couple of verses came to mind while reading your words this morning:

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9

"And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him." But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have NOT FOUND SUCH GREAT FAITH with anyone in Israel. "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment." Matthew 8:5-13
Those are great Scriptures! We need to have full faith in Jesus! Which means being obedient, right? Otherwise, it's a dead faith. -- James 2:17-26
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
For those who might be interested.....

Miʹcha·el [Who Is Like God?].

"The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the “time of distress” that is associated with Michael’s standing up. (Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator."
(Insight Volumes WTBTS)

Hi,

If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Matt. 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself?

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I believe it is the freedom that comes from escaping false teachings. The truth is not what is taught in the churches of Christendom.
Hi Deeje,

Yeah. This is the same reason for Mormons, and Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) that there are apostasy transpired therefore there should be a church organization; Mormons (Joseph Smith), Iglesia ni Cristo (Felix Manalo) and JW (Charles Taze Russell, or the seekers).

So how you will reconcile the warning of Jesus Christ about false teachings and those founded beliefs?
If you are familiar with the prophesies in the book of Daniel you will know that they pertain to "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9, 10) It was only at this time that God foretold a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' of his people. Right on time, Jehovah raised up a people and proceeded to cleanse and refine their worship of all the pagan doctrines that the church introduced centuries before.
Are you talking about the future? I think this is about the tribulation period. So how do you reconcile this cleansing, or refining in relation with Jesus and His disciples, same with the early church fathers?
They are an appointed group of men who are the shepherds of the entire flock. Just as there was a governing body of older men in Jerusalem who directed the work of the first century Christian congregations, so we have a similar structure. No individuals within the group make decisions for the body, but they are guided by God's spirit as a collective, to "feed" all in Christ's household their "food at the proper time. (Matthew 24:45) They are slaves of their brothers, not masters.
So who are those appointed group of men? How will you trace it starting with the disciples of Jesus Christ down to the future?

Thanks
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Does angel mean, "Messenger"? Is this a correct definition? a spiritual being believed to act as an attendant, agent, or messenger of God.

Can anyone rightly call their son, an attendant, agent or messenger?

Yes. All angels are called "sons of God" and many of them are attendants, messengers and agents. They all serve their Father as his ministers. Being a servant of God is not slavery, (as humans might interpret it) it is a privilege.

The Word was unique however because of his being the "only begotten" of his Father. As the only direct creation of God, he is a true "monogenes" in any definition of the word....an "only child". His spirit "brothers" were part of creation that came "through" the son, not "from" him. He is the "firstborn" of creation and was used as the agency through which all creation came into being. (Col 1:15, 16) Michael the Archangel is commander of all the Angels because he outranks them.

God gave birth first to God's son. What did God see in him? An attendant, agent or messenger?

An apprentice. Someone to teach all he knows. The length of his existence alone with his Father is not stated in the scriptures, but at "the beginning" of creation the Word was at his Father's side during the whole process. (Proverbs 8:30, 31)
Jesus did not promote himself as anything but a messenger of his God and father, promoting reconciliation with him. His apostles did not think he was anything but "the son of God"...his "holy servant". (Hebrews 4:30)

John 7:15, 16:
"And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me." (John 14:10)

No, I don't think so. God would have seen an inheritor.

"An inheritor"? You do understand that an inheritor is one who inherits something that originally belonged to someone else? The son cannot "inherit" something that is already his.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hi,

If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Matt. 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself?

There are only two individuals in all of the Bible said to be in control of the angelic forces...Jesus and Michael.

Revelation 12:7, which describes “Michael and his angels” as fighting a vital war that results in the ousting of Satan the Devil and his wicked angels from heaven.

Matthew 13:41...."The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness"

If you don't believe that Jesus is God, the scriptures reveal so much more about him than that doctrine will allow.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Those are great Scriptures! We need to have full faith in Jesus! Which means being obedient, right? Otherwise, it's a dead faith. -- James 2:17-26
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Romans 10:1-3
 
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