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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

JesusBeliever

Active Member
These little guys express the joy at belonging to such an amazing universal family. You can't fake that! This scene is replicated all over the world when Jehovah's people come together at our annual conventions. We have International conventions like that one every four years. They are such memorable events that they touch the heart in ways no other gatherings can. Our last one in Australia was in Melbourne and it turned that city on its head. Authorities had never seen such an orderly and well behaved crowd. We left the stadium cleaner than what we found it with an army of willing volunteers before, during, and after the convention to make sure things were clean and presentable as an acceptable place for worship.

There can be no interfaith with those who do not accept the truth of God's word as one united body. We are a true brotherhood, not a group of independent believers who argue doctrinally with each other behind the scenes. We fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:10 and we meet together regularly as Hebrews 10:24, 25 tell us to do.

It is interesting to me that there are people who want to paint us in the worst light as if we are the most evil and deceived people on earth. The fact is, there is no one in that video who is there because they are forced or coerced in any way. The love is genuine and those who have left us are probably among the most miserable people on earth because they will not find that anywhere else. (Not to say that there aren't local congregations of people who are loving, but they cannot replicate that on a global scale) The defectors have nowhere to go because once you learn the truth, you can't 'unlearn' it. You can fight it and you can complain about all sorts of things, but if you do, then you don't belong with us....it's really that simple. People are free to take their issues and leave. We have better things to do than argue.....but we will defend when challenged....vigorously.

God won't change to accommodate the whims of a few dissenters. We obey those who take the lead and submit to their direction willingly. (Hebrews 13:17) Those who can't or won't do that, have no place with us. Outside looking in is not a good vantage point IMO.....I was there once and I will never be there again. I love the truth and I love being a member of this family. There is no other international body of believers who can compare with what we have or what we do. And no amount of whining on the part of dissenters or defectors will dampen the spirit that is clearly evident in our midst. We are by no means perfect, but our brotherhood is the most obedient on earth to the teachings of the Christ. I can say that with absolute conviction.
Those who want to dictate to God and his "faithful and discreet slave" are not only missing from our ranks...but I believe that they have not been invited.
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(John 6:44)
All your post expressed to me Deeje were these verses:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-14
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Funny...I don't have any urges to do what Jehovah hates. What he hates is what I hate. The Watchtower has never lied to me in my life.
The terrible, sinful urges I would get were to reason with my atheist husband about why I would not agree to any blood transfusions and other related JW priorities. It only ended each time in terrible head to head confrontations. I suppose you would be able each time to know when to speak and when not to speak. Am I right?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Watchtower has never lied to me in my life.

The Watchtower teaches that a person who believes this - Psalms 146:3 over the JW belief that being led by the resurrected Jesus Christ is not good enough, so Jehovah says to never mind Psalms 146:3, Psalms 118:8, Isaiah 2:22, Jeremiah 17:5.....because now we have the governing body to obey, is mentally diseased. @Deeje True?

Is it possible that someone who doesn't think Jesus can control God's people so we need the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses for that also in a way denying his resurrection? What good is a resurrection if he is still dead to you? 1 John 2:22

Right. JW profess that Jesus is Christ but their actions speak louder than their words. They can't be led by him so he is not Christ to them yet.

He is Christ to me now.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
5 How do false teachers operate? Their methods reveal a cunning spirit. Apostates “quietly bring in” corruptive ideas. Like smugglers, they operate in a clandestine manner, subtly introducing apostate views. And just as a clever forger tries to pass phony documents, so apostates use “counterfeit words,” or false arguments, trying to pass their fabricated views as if they were true. They spread “deceptive teachings,” “twisting . . . the Scriptures” to fit their own ideas. (2 Pet. 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16) Clearly, apostates do not have our best interests at heart. Following them would only divert us from the road that leads to eternal life.
6 How can we protect ourselves against false teachers? The Bible’s counsel regarding how to deal with them is clear. (Read Romans 16:17; 2 John 9-11.) “Avoid them,” says God’s Word. Other translations render that phrase “turn away from them,” “keep away from them,” and “stay away from them!” There is nothing ambiguous about that inspired counsel. Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease. You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are “mentally diseased,” and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings. (1 Tim. 6:3, 4) Jehovah, the Great Physician, tells us to avoid contact with them. We know what he means, but are we determined to heed his warning in all respects?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011524

My idea that I am to obey God as lord and NOT the elders of the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is scriptural. Psalms 146:3, Psalms 118:8, Isaiah 2:22, Jeremiah 17:5
THEY twist the word 'to persuade' at Hebrews 13:17 into the word 'obey'. But what it really means is, that by your good behavior you are to be persuading men who are capable to teach, to choose it, and to do it without regrets.

Be a good student and you will be Πείθεσθε them more and more.

Compare 1 Peter 1:2 with Hebrews 13:17

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,+ with sanctification by the spirit,+ for the purpose of being obedient and sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ:+

http://biblehub.com/greek/5218.htm

17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you+and be submissive,+ for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,+ so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3982.htm
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
So we are reduced to stats now? What percentage of Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah?
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We do not tolerate those who want their own way whilst pretending to follow God's way. We don't get to do our own thing for the simple reason, that when we dedicate our lives to God, we actually mean it. Our own wants and needs are put aside whilst we put the interests of God's Kingdom first (Matthew 6:33) and our own selfish pursuits second.
Unrepentant wrongdoers are missing from our ranks because we disfellowship them. We make no apology for that. The way is always open to return if they meet the criteria. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) Who wants to retain dissenters and those who thumb their noses at God's laws? Being a Christian has never been about the numbers. (Matthew 7:13, 14) Its about faith without compromise.

Just being raised as a Witness is no guarantee that our children will follow our way of life. We do not force them but we understand that the world is ruled by satan and there are traps for the unwary and inexperienced. (1 John 2:15-17; 5:19) We give them warnings, but at the end of the day, it is a hard life being obedient to God and the teachings of Jesus Christ in this environment. Self interest often wins out over the fallen flesh....even with adults.


No need to explain. I was just demonstrating how you are part of the minority who , as you stated, "would want to be found among such terrible/miserable people".
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
All your post expressed to me Deeje were these verses:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-14

Whenever I read the story of the good Samaritan, I cant help but picture two JW's as ones who would also walk way.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Whenever I read the story of the good Samaritan, I cant help but picture two JW's as ones who would also walk way.
This is gonna sound harsh brother but it's the truth of what they did to me all those years ago (I was just 24 years old), and Deeje has also tried to do on this forum but failed. I realize now, that they were the thieves that I had fallen amongst. I just thank God that He put many good Samaritans like yourself and savagewind on my path to help restore me to health again! I really should have listened to the Lord when He tried to warn me. But I was young and dumb and thankfully He had mercy on my ignorance!
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
This is gonna sound harsh brother but it's the truth of what they did to me all those years ago (I was just 24 years old), and Deeje has also tried to do on this forum but failed. I realize now, that they were the thieves that I had fallen amongst. I just thank God that He put many good Samaritans like yourself and savagewind on my path to help restore me to health again! I really should have listened to the Lord when He tried to warn me. But I was young and dumb and thankfully He had mercy on my ignorance!

Interesting..I never thought of the story from that perspective--JW's as the thieves who robbed the man and left him for dead..
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is gonna sound harsh brother but it's the truth of what they did to me all those years ago (I was just 24 years old), and Deeje has also tried to do on this forum but failed. I realize now, that they were the thieves that I had fallen amongst. I just thank God that He put many good Samaritans like yourself and savagewind on my path to help restore me to health again! I really should have listened to the Lord when He tried to warn me. But I was young and dumb and thankfully He had mercy on my ignorance!
Thank you @JesusBeliever. It does sounds harsh, but come to think of it, it is true. They say that everything we are and have is Jehovah's and they are Jehovah. I know they don't mean it and if Jehovah might please shake them so they might see it, most of them, I hope, would quit the charade. But, and here is the secret, by their ignorance, truth is being made known. I think @Deeje IS working for the truth, but sadly, on the wrong side.

But if she and her family are happy, that is all that counts, for the time being. 1 Timothy 5:8
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Watchtower has never lied to me in my life.
.
I think we agree on the fact that God's Word should never be changed to reflect anyone's person objective.

I realize that you might think that is what I try to do. Of course, you are free to believe that. I am thankful that you notice me at all. Thank you.

Jesus says, "Happy are the poor in spirit" and the NWT has added to that saying, "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need."

3 “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need,*+since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.

And what does the Watchtower say is everyone's real spiritual need? It says we need the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to provide what we need to please God.

What happened is that The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses was built on Babylon the Great's foundation and she says, "happy are the poor in spirit"

Look up the Greek. Does it not make more sense that a person who begs with due respect is happy?

FYI a rich person may and does BEG. So, Matthew 5:3 doesn't mean poor. It means beg.

DO I HAVE PROOF? Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Wrap it up! When you ASK God for anything, if it is true asking, it WILL BE DONE with fear and trembling, which is OK to call it, "begging".
πτωχοὶ

Happy are those who keep begging Jehovah for more wisdom and truth. Matthew 5:3
Happy are the beggars for spirit

Jehovah's Witnesses are being taught how not to beg imo.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
And what does the Watchtower say is everyone's real spiritual need? It says we need the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to provide what we need to please God.

What happened is that The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses was built on Babylon the Great's foundation and she says, "happy are the poor in spirit"
Hi savagewind, can you just clarify, do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the visible Kingdom of God on earth? And do they regard new converts as entering the Kingdom of God?
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Sadly I was raised by a father that believed in "god" but never once attended any
church service, nor cracked open a Bible.
Even MORE sad is the fact that I was raised by a J.W. mother.
Now that I'm much, much, older I realize the poor woman was nutty as a fruit cake!
Dad was an alcoholic. Mother was a closet alcoholic that hid her disease behind dads and
behind the J.W. congregation who at that time chose to ignore alcoholism and pronounced
the disease as a "sin" unworthy of a J.W.
Eventually mothers hidden conduct was found out and instead of the "brothers"
offering her help and loving counseling they booted her out publicly.
Mother's drinking killed her.
Never mind that a J.W. man molested my sister when she was but 12 years old.
Once at a Sunday meeting the "elders" spotted a pack of smokes in a female
J.W. purse. Those fine men had a private meeting and booted her out publicly.
I was raised in the country where us boys grew up hunting and fishing.
I had a Bible study with a J.W. when I was a young man.
The J.W. saw a hunting gun and was upset saying I should toss the thing in
the river or die with the rest of the world at Armageddon.
Really?
Extremist views result in extremist actions.
Then there was uncle Mike (r.i.p.) who might have been the finest example
of a father, husband, AND spiritual adviser who I've ever known
and he was a J.W. and a darned fine hero to me.
His son, Mike Jr. is a J.W. and twice disfellowshiped but reinstated and now
a fine example of a true Christian.
Oh, and I don't feel the Governing Body is any more "inspired" of "god"
than any other living human.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi savagewind, can you just clarify, do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the visible Kingdom of God on earth? And do they regard new converts as entering the Kingdom of God?
No, I do not think so. If I am remembering correctly, they believe the faithful and discreet slave is the visible Kingdom of God and that only they have entered the Kingdom of God. All the rest will enter the Kingdom of God after the great war of God, Armageddon.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@JesusBeliever I looked up the subject of who is a subject of the Kingdom of God.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-gods-kingdom/

The Bible’s answer
God’s Kingdom is a real government established by Jehovah God. “The kingdom of God” is also called “the kingdom of heaven” in the Bible, since it rules from heaven. (Mark 1:14, 15; Matthew 4:17, King James Version) It shares many attributes of human governments, yet it is superior to them in every way.

  • Rulers. God has appointed Jesus Christ as King of the Kingdom and has given him more authority than any human ruler could ever have. (Matthew 28:18) Jesus uses this power only for good, since he has already proved to be a reliable and compassionate Leader. (Matthew 4:23; Mark 1:40, 41; 6:31-34; Luke 7:11-17) Under God’s direction, Jesus has selected persons from all nations who will “rule as kings over the earth” with him in heaven.—Revelation 5:9, 10.

  • Duration. Unlike human governments, which come and go, God’s Kingdom “will never be brought to ruin.”—Daniel 2:44.

  • Subjects. Anyone who does what God requires can be a subject of God’s Kingdom, without regard for ancestry or birthplace.—Acts 10:34, 35.

  • Laws. The laws (or commandments) of God’s Kingdom do more than just prohibit wrong behavior. They raise the moral character of its subjects. For example, the Bible says: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Matthew 22:37-39) Love of God and neighbor moves subjects of the Kingdom to act in the best interests of others.

  • Education. While God’s Kingdom sets high standards for its subjects, it also teaches people how to meet those standards.—Isaiah 48:17, 18.

  • Mission. The Kingdom of God doesn’t enrich its rulers at the expense of its subjects. Instead, it will accomplish God’s will, including the promise that those who love him will live forever on a paradise earth.—Isaiah 35:1, 5, 6; Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:1-4.
It seems that according to them it IS ruling but, isn't ruling. "Jesus has selected people who will rule" and "anyone who does what God requires can be a subject of God's Kingdom". But I am sure, many people do what God requires NOW. The sad part is, and they left this out, they believe God requires everyone to recognize and obey the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. But see? They will, "rule with him IN HEAVEN". Then the question to the JWs is if God's Kingdom will (in the future) rule from Heaven, why not now? They won't can't or haven't yet answered me.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another article of the Watchtower Corporations writes, (https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/kingdom-in-heart/)
Luke 17:21


21 nor will people say, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.”

So. according to them, the Kingdom of God, which is a ruling force, existed with Jesus then. It seems they have not yet admitted that it still exists now.
I think it has always existed and that the 144,000 are made up of mostly the people whose work established Jesus as King of God's Kingdom. The Watchtower teaches that the 144,000 can only be people who lived after Jesus was glorified.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I decided to look up the subject too, except I decided to search up the faithful and discreet slave and well....
Where does one begin???
Take a look at this article:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/...1-a1ab22d7aab1&insight[search_result_index]=0
That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel.—Matt. 4:4; John 17:3.................10 Who, then, is the faithful and discreet slave? In keeping with Jesus’ pattern of feeding many through the hands of a few, that slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence.Throughout the last days, the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave have served together at headquarters. In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Note, however, that the word “slave” in Jesus’ illustration is singular, indicating that this is a composite slave. The decisions of the Governing Body are thus made collectively. 11 It is noteworthy that in Jesus’ illustration, the faithful and discreet slave receives two distinct appointments. The first is over the domestics; the second is over all the master’s belongings. Since the illustration is fulfilled only in this time of the end, both appointments would have to come after Jesus’ presence in kingly power began in 1914............... Those who make up the faithful slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ.

This is propaganda. See the words for surety? They "will get"... when "they [will] receive"..... "becoming"...... Never an "if".

"Since the illustration is fulfilled only in this time of the end"......is called a Watchtower lie. It is an opinion of the Watchtower group that Matthew 24:45-51 is a prophesy about the Jehovah's Witnesses and is not a parable about believers' relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why don't they explain who fed the First Century Christians?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Will the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses be so kind as to explain how they know by "further careful study and prayerful meditation" which words of Jesus are parable and which are prophecy?
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
This is propaganda. See the words for surety? They "will get"... when "they [will] receive"..... "becoming"...... Never an "if".

"Since the illustration is fulfilled only in this time of the end"......is called a Watchtower lie. It is an opinion of the Watchtower group that Matthew 24:45-51 is a prophesy about the Jehovah's Witnesses and is not a parable about believers' relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why don't they explain who fed the First Century Christians?
They did! But then changed their minds:

3 How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ illustration about the faithful slave? In the past, OUR PUBLICATIONS have said the following: AT PENTECOST 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics................

4 The context of the illustration of the faithful and discreet slave shows that it began to be fulfilled, NOT AT PENTECOST 33 C.E., but in this time of the end. Let us see how the Scriptures lead us to this conclusion.
 
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