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Accusations made in "Kingdom of the Cults" re: JW's - pt.2

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
* The Watchtower society denies the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and that He will return bodily. They say Jesus is an invisible spirit creature.

1 Peter 3:18 says: "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit". -- American Standard Version (AS)

And Paul stated at 1 Timothy 5:15-16: "which, when the right time comes, the blessed only Potentate will display, the King of all who reign and Lord of all who rule, he who alone has immortality, who inhabits unapproachable light, whom none of men have seen nor can see; to whom belong honor and might eternal; amen". -- Byington (By)

For more information supporting this understanding, here is an excerpt from this link,
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989240 :

****Does Jesus have his fleshly body in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving spirit. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Italics added.)

1 Peter 3:18, RS: “Christ also died for sins once for all, . . . being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit [“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy].” (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.” [And in which way do most agree?])

Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?

It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, why did they not at first recognize him? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16) On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But how was it possible on that occasion for him suddenly to appear in their midst even though the doors were locked? (John 20:26-27) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; yet, the resurrected Jesus always appeared fully clothed.—John 20:6-7.****

[Another reason why Jesus' physical body was disposed of by God: He knew that it would eventually be turned into an idol, as mankind is apt to do!]

(BTW, see how many different translations are being used? So, to imply that JW's *only* use the NWT, is disingenuous. Yes the NWT is our preferred choice, but we'll gladly use others :) )


More will continue.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Having put this in "Comparative Religions," which religion(s) are you comparing this to? I assume you'll be posting their views.


.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Having put this in "Comparative Religions," which religion(s) are you comparing this to? I assume you'll be posting their views.


.
I....guess....mainstream Christianity in general. This forum was suggested to me, by another member.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
A few things occur to me, while reading this
* The Watchtower society denies the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and that He will return bodily. They say Jesus is an invisible spirit creature.
...

1 Peter 3:18 says: "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit". -- American Standard Version (AS)
Noting this verses as contextual

And Paul stated at 1 Timothy 5:15-16: "which, when the right time comes, the blessed only Potentate will display, the King of all who reign and Lord of all who rule, he who alone has immortality, who inhabits unapproachable light, whom none of men have seen nor can see; to whom belong honor and might eternal; amen". -- Byington (By)
...

For more information supporting this understanding, here is an excerpt from this link,
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989240 :
...

****Does Jesus have his fleshly body in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving spirit. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Italics added.)
We do note here that you seem to be equating Jesus to Adam. That's interesting.

1 Peter 3:18, RS: “Christ also died for sins once for all, . . . being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit [“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy].” (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.” [And in which way do most agree?])
Ok, makes sense so far

Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Agree...sort of. The ''person'' of Jesus , regardless of what 'type' of body He has, is the same. This is why He is the same, when He appears after the crucifixion.

It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, why did they not at first recognize him? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16) On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But how was it possible on that occasion for him suddenly to appear in their midst even though the doors were locked? (John 20:26-27) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; yet, the resurrected Jesus always appeared fully clothed.—John 20:6-7.****
Here we have a clear reference to how Jesus /could , essentially, materialize, then present a ''physical'' body, even. Now, that being said, one could infer that the materialized body, //the physical body/, was thusly not the same type of physical body that we have, in property of ,shall we say, potentiality.

[Another reason why Jesus' physical body was disposed of by God: He knew that it would eventually be turned into an idol, as mankind is apt to do!]

(BTW, see how many different translations are being used? So, to imply that JW's *only* use the NWT, is disingenuous. Yes the NWT is our preferred choice, but we'll gladly use others :) )


More will continue.
The only thing that I might have a question/ regarding your presentation; A ''physical body'', does not have to be exactly the same type of physical body that we have. Since Jesus did, present a ''physical body'', after the resurrection, then we can just as well assume that He has a physical body, at some times, and can simply switch back and forth. This inference does not support the idea that Jesus literally does not, or cannot, have a physical body, after the resurrection. The 'sacrifice', idea, is also in question as to 'what' is being sacrified, and if it is even like a normal 'sacrifice' , at all. What did Jesus actually sacrifice? He was around after the resurrection, and many people , believe that He even went and taught elsewhere, which would actually make sense, given what we know, anyway. The 'physical sacrifice', it seems to me, is our problem, not Jesus's. In a way, it's symbolic on Jesus's part, and 'real', for us./ We are the ones who have to deal with the import of the sacrifice,,

Some further statements as to your beliefs would help the dialogue, I think
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
A few things occur to me, while reading this

...


Noting this verses as contextual


...


...


We do note here that you seem to be equating Jesus to Adam. That's interesting.


Ok, makes sense so far


Agree...sort of. The ''person'' of Jesus , regardless of what 'type' of body He has, is the same. This is why He is the same, when He appears after the crucifixion.


Here we have a clear reference to how Jesus /could , essentially, materialize, then present a ''physical'' body, even. Now, that being said, one could infer that the materialized body, //the physical body/, was thusly not the same type of physical body that we have, in property of ,shall we say, potentiality.


The only thing that I might have a question/ regarding your presentation; A ''physical body'', does not have to be exactly the same type of physical body that we have. Since Jesus did, present a ''physical body'', after the resurrection, then we can just as well assume that He has a physical body, at some times, and can simply switch back and forth. This inference does not support the idea that Jesus literally does not, or cannot, have a physical body, after the resurrection. The 'sacrifice', idea, is also in question as to 'what' is being sacrified, and if it is even like a normal 'sacrifice' , at all. What did Jesus actually sacrifice? He was around after the resurrection, and many people , believe that He even went and taught elsewhere, which would actually make sense, given what we know, anyway. The 'physical sacrifice', it seems to me, is our problem, not Jesus's. In a way, it's symbolic on Jesus's part, and 'real', for us./ We are the ones who have to deal with the import of the sacrifice,,

Some further statements as to your beliefs would help the dialogue, I think

I'll be glad to. But I will concentrate on rebutting the further bullet points in "Kingdom of the Cults", for now.

(The url I provided might answer a few of those questions....there are links throughout. Plus a search feature.)

Take care!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
A few things occur to me, while reading this

...


Noting this verses as contextual


...


...


We do note here that you seem to be equating Jesus to Adam. That's interesting.


Ok, makes sense so far


Agree...sort of. The ''person'' of Jesus , regardless of what 'type' of body He has, is the same. This is why He is the same, when He appears after the crucifixion.


Here we have a clear reference to how Jesus /could , essentially, materialize, then present a ''physical'' body, even. Now, that being said, one could infer that the materialized body, //the physical body/, was thusly not the same type of physical body that we have, in property of ,shall we say, potentiality.


The only thing that I might have a question/ regarding your presentation; A ''physical body'', does not have to be exactly the same type of physical body that we have. Since Jesus did, present a ''physical body'', after the resurrection, then we can just as well assume that He has a physical body, at some times, and can simply switch back and forth. This inference does not support the idea that Jesus literally does not, or cannot, have a physical body, after the resurrection. The 'sacrifice', idea, is also in question as to 'what' is being sacrified, and if it is even like a normal 'sacrifice' , at all. What did Jesus actually sacrifice? He was around after the resurrection, and many people , believe that He even went and taught elsewhere, which would actually make sense, given what we know, anyway. The 'physical sacrifice', it seems to me, is our problem, not Jesus's. In a way, it's symbolic on Jesus's part, and 'real', for us./ We are the ones who have to deal with the import of the sacrifice,,

Some further statements as to your beliefs would help the dialogue, I think

Thank you for your reply.

We do note here that you seem to be equating Jesus to Adam. That's interesting.

Just curious...why do you say, 'I seem to be equating Jesus to Adam'? These are Paul's words, he did the equating. After all, what was lost -- perfect human life -- was lost by our progenitor, Adam.(Romans 5:12) That was what Jesus 'bought back' for us, if we try our best to exercise our faith in Him, being obedient. -- John 3:16.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think the author of The Kingdom of the Cults got it wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult because their dogma differs from the mainstream. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult because they replace the spiritual Jesus (Matthew 28:20) with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Thank you for your reply.



Just curious...why do you say, 'I seem to be equating Jesus to Adam'? These are Paul's words, he did the equating. After all, what was lost -- perfect human life -- was lost by our progenitor, Adam.(Romans 5:12) That was what Jesus 'bought back' for us, if we try our best to exercise our faith in Him, being obedient. -- John 3:16.

You'll notice different ''equating'', inferred , there. The comment I made was regarding what seems like a ''literal'', equating of Adam, To Jesus. The verses you provided, are not a 'equating', of the ''persons''; it is explaining how the Actions of Jesus, affect, what happened in the Garden.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Are you done with the bullet points?
Yes, I will eventually.

But, really, if you go to the JW online library, http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/h/r1/lp-e , in the top right search box, you can type in key words, and will find a plethora of information on those topics, explaining it better than I could!

If you want to. Sometimes, when I write things, I can go off on a tangent, and not really be clear in my intended explanation. I much rather talk to people face to face.....my mouth keeps better pace with my mind, than my hand can type, I'm a slow typer! Lol
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I think the author of The Kingdom of the Cults got it wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult because their dogma differs from the mainstream. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult because they replace the spiritual Jesus (Matthew 28:20) with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.


Let me ask you this: would you have had a problem listening to the Apostles? (Acts of the Apostles 2:42)

Because honestly -- and this is only my perspective -- I think you would have. You would not listen to "those taking the
lead among you." -- Hebrews 13:17
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me ask you this: would you have had a problem listening to the Apostles? (Acts of the Apostles 2:42)

Because honestly -- and this is only my perspective -- I think you would have. You would not listen to "those taking the
lead among you." -- Hebrews 13:17
So, you equate the governing body to those writing scripture. Do you think that is wise?

But on the subject of the query of you, I realize that it is humanly impossible to know what I might do under any given circumstance.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
So, you equate the governing body to those writing scripture. Do you think that is wise?

But on the subject of the query of you, I realize that it is humanly impossible to know what I might do under any given circumstance.
Yes, very wise. 'Those wring Scripture' weren't imperfect? Jehovah always used imperfect humans to lead His people. "Those taking the lead among you", was that only the Apostles? No.

I'm afraid it won't matter what I say to you. But keep in mind...no one else today worships who Jesus worshipped. Unless you feel the Jewish religion is right.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, very wise. 'Those wring Scripture' weren't imperfect? Jehovah always used imperfect humans to lead His people. "Those taking the lead among you", was that only the Apostles? No.

I'm afraid it won't matter what I say to you. But keep in mind...no one else today worships who Jesus worshipped. Unless you feel the Jewish religion is right.
No one else but the Jehovah's Witnesses? I think that is not true.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me ask you this: would you have had a problem listening to the Apostles? (Acts of the Apostles 2:42)

Because honestly -- and this is only my perspective -- I think you would have. You would not listen to "those taking the
lead among you." -- Hebrews 13:17
I am thinking about it.

I really do believe that for those taking the lead there should be peace. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. So, if I were to presume to lead, I would not want to do it with contention. I think those scriptures which say to submit to the leaders of God's people do not mean to obey without reserve, like some Jehovah's Witnesses teach it. It means to be in relative submission to them, as we should also be in relative submission to the secular authorities.

@Deeje says we are to trust them all to lead us right. I am certain that is not what the scriptures say. She says that God always appointed leaders for God's people. Not always! Once Jehovah LET the people appoint a leader (Saul) and that proved disastrous for most Israelites. Now it is the same as Jehovah is letting JWs appoint their leaders for them (in their hearts).

Also, there were no appointed leaders who proved 100% successful, like Jesus for The Father will prove so.

Then she says all God's people must speak in agreement. About what? She says about everything. The one table and the one mind thing.
How do the Jehovah's Witnesses know that the agreement scriptures are not about being in agreement that Jesus Christ is the way, truth and life? That's it. Be in agreement about that, and you have satisfied those directives imo. But the governing body have added to that. They say God means to be in agreement that Jehovah has appointed them to teach us the way, truth and life. According to you, why does Jesus not do that?
 
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whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
So .... do JW believe Jesus original body was resurrected.. or was he recreated from the mind of God

I have always heard JW believe the second from various sources tho not a JW here. Because of the nail prints and because resurrections in every example in the bible were the original body I lgo with the first view
 

Kent856

Member
So .... do JW believe Jesus original body was resurrected.. or was he recreated from the mind of God

I've never heard the distinction being discussed by Jws so I'm guessing it's not a matter of importance. However I would say in my opinion that it was Jesus original body.
 
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