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Cessationism vs. continuationism

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Psalm 102 is addressed to Yahweh (Jehovah does not exist):

Jehovah knows his name in all languages. English is not the only language in the world you know. Would you like a list of all the different ways YHWH is translated in other languages? "Jehovah" is "YHWH" translated into English. "Yahweh" is a transliteration. I assume you know the difference?

“Let this be recorded for a generation to come, so that a people yet to be created may praise the Lord: that he looked down from his holy height; from heaven the Lord (Yahweh) looked at the earth, to hear the groans of the prisoners, to set free those who were doomed to die, that they may declare in Zion the name of the Lord (Yahweh), and in Jerusalem his praise, when peoples gather together, and kingdoms, to worship the Lord (Yahweh). He has broken my strength in midcourse; he has shortened my days. “O my God,” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days—you whose years endure throughout all generations!” Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.” (Psalm 102:25-27)

Here you see how the author of Hebrews applied this passage, which was originally talking about Yahweh to Jesus. Was it a mistake? Absolutely not. John also tells us that Yahweh and Jesus are one and the same.

"The Lord" in the original OT scripture was Jehovah. Since Jesus was the one "through" whom Jehovah created everything, that verse can rightly be attributed to him.

Notice that John tells us that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory:

“When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.” (John 12:36-41)

Whose glory did Isaiah see? The answer is in Isaiah 6:

“In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the traina of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord (Yahweh) of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord (Yahweh) of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:1-5)"

So, Isaiah saw Jesus, who is Yahweh. This is not the only passage that I can use to prove to you that Jesus is Yahweh.

There is no instance of Jesus ever being called Yahweh. Inference does not make a doctrine.

In your estimations, does "glory" only belong to God? Has it occurred to you that all spirit beings are glorious? Even some of God's material creations are glorious. (1 Corinthians 15:35-41)
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most often translated “glory” is ka·vohdhʹ, which basically has the sense of “heaviness.”...so glory may refer to anything that makes a person or a thing seem weighty or impressive, such as material wealth (Psalm 49:16), position, or reputation. (Genesis 45:13)

The Greek equivalent of ka·vohdhʹ is doʹxa, which originally meant “opinion; reputation,” but in the Christian Greek Scriptures came to mean “glory.” Among its senses are repute or “honor” (Luke 14:10), splendor (Luke 2:9; 1Corinthians 15:40), and that which brings honor to its owner or maker. (1Corinthians 11:7)

John 17:1-5:
"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." (ESV)

Do you see in those words any allusion to an equal status between Jesus and his God? He is asking for God to restore the glory he had before creation began. As a mighty spirit creature whose position is second only to the Father, Jesus was still a servant of his God. (Acts 4:30)
He is directly stating that he was "given" authority to bestow everlasting life to those whom God gave him. He calls his Father "the only true God" without including himself in that definition, but rather saying that he was "sent" by God.

The whole concept of the trinity is scripturally unsupported because one part of God cannot "authorize" an equal part of himself. God already has all authority.....he already has glory and does not need to bestow that on an equal part of himself either. Trinitarians believe that Jesus was both "fully God and fully man" whilst on earth....so how do you explain that Jesus calls his Father "my God" even after his return to heaven? (Revelation 3:12)

You are welcome to believe whatever you wish, but please don't use the Bible to try and support something it has never advocated.
 

Crypto2015

Active Member
Jehovah knows his name in all languages. English is not the only language in the world you know. Would you like a list of all the different ways YHWH is translated in other languages? "Jehovah" is "YHWH" translated into English. "Yahweh" is a transliteration. I assume you know the difference?



"The Lord" in the original OT scripture was Jehovah. Since Jesus was the one "through" whom Jehovah created everything, that verse can rightly be attributed to him.



There is no instance of Jesus ever being called Yahweh. Inference does not make a doctrine.

In your estimations, does "glory" only belong to God? Has it occurred to you that all spirit beings are glorious? Even some of God's material creations are glorious. (1 Corinthians 15:35-41)
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most often translated “glory” is ka·vohdhʹ, which basically has the sense of “heaviness.”...so glory may refer to anything that makes a person or a thing seem weighty or impressive, such as material wealth (Psalm 49:16), position, or reputation. (Genesis 45:13)

The Greek equivalent of ka·vohdhʹ is doʹxa, which originally meant “opinion; reputation,” but in the Christian Greek Scriptures came to mean “glory.” Among its senses are repute or “honor” (Luke 14:10), splendor (Luke 2:9; 1Corinthians 15:40), and that which brings honor to its owner or maker. (1Corinthians 11:7)

John 17:1-5:
"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." (ESV)

Do you see in those words any allusion to an equal status between Jesus and his God? He is asking for God to restore the glory he had before creation began. As a mighty spirit creature whose position is second only to the Father, Jesus was still a servant of his God. (Acts 4:30)
He is directly stating that he was "given" authority to bestow everlasting life to those whom God gave him. He calls his Father "the only true God" without including himself in that definition, but rather saying that he was "sent" by God.

The whole concept of the trinity is scripturally unsupported because one part of God cannot "authorize" an equal part of himself. God already has all authority.....he already has glory and does not need to bestow that on an equal part of himself either. Trinitarians believe that Jesus was both "fully God and fully man" whilst on earth....so how do you explain that Jesus calls his Father "my God" even after his return to heaven? (Revelation 3:12)

You are welcome to believe whatever you wish, but please don't use the Bible to try and support something it has never advocated.


Hell is not simply the destruction of the soul, but eternal torment. See

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

These passages are very clear. You cannot just ignore them. Maybe dead people are not conscious now, but it is clear that they will be conscious in hell.

God has a God because God’s relationship is more complex than the one you can have with your own self. Look at this

“Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven.” (Genesis 19:24)

You know that Jesus created everything (Colossians 1:15-16, John 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:1-2). Perfect. Let us see what the Old Testament says about who created everything

“Ah, Lord GOD (Yahweh)! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.” (Jeremiah 32:17)

“O Lord (Yahweh) of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.” (Isaiah 37:16)

“Thus says the Lord (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” (Isaiah 44: 24)

Yahweh created everything with his own arm, all BY HIMSELF. Hence, Jesus is once again Yahweh.

Jesus was both God and man. He “emptied” himself of some of his attributes in order to become fully man, while at the same time being fully God

“but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:7)

Now I wanted to ask you something. We know that no one has seen God, then who was the Yahweh with whom Abraham ate in Genesis 18?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hell is not simply the destruction of the soul, but eternal torment. See

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

These passages are very clear. You cannot just ignore them. Maybe dead people are not conscious now, but it is clear that they will be conscious in hell.

God has a God because God’s relationship is more complex than the one you can have with your own self. Look at this

“Then the LORD (Yahweh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD (Yahweh) out of heaven.” (Genesis 19:24)

You know that Jesus created everything (Colossians 1:15-16, John 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:1-2). Perfect. Let us see what the Old Testament says about who created everything

“Ah, Lord GOD (Yahweh)! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.” (Jeremiah 32:17)

“O Lord (Yahweh) of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.” (Isaiah 37:16)

“Thus says the Lord (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” (Isaiah 44: 24)

Yahweh created everything with his own arm, all BY HIMSELF. Hence, Jesus is once again Yahweh.

Jesus was both God and man. He “emptied” himself of some of his attributes in order to become fully man, while at the same time being fully God

“but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:7)

You can quote all the scripture you like but none of it says Jesus is Almighty God. The apostles never once said that Jesus was Almighty God. Jesus did not once say that he was Almighty God...so what does that leave you with? Supposition...inference...a false doctrine introduced hundreds of years after Jesus died....but no facts...no direct statements confirming any of what you believe. The Jews did not worship a triune God....Jesus was Jewish and not one word out of his mouth even hinted at the possibility that he was God incarnate.

Now I wanted to ask you something. We know that no one has seen God, then who was the Yahweh with whom Abraham ate in Genesis 18?

Are you assuming that John lied? Has a man seen God in person? (Exodus 33:17-20)
You assume that God came down to earth in person, in a human body to speak with Abraham? And he ate a meal prepared by Sarah? Really?
The Most supreme Sovereign has no need to appear in person to his human servants...that is why he has angels (messengers) to do that for him.

In his encounter with the burning bush, God spoke to Moses by means of an angel. The angel spoke in the first person as if it were Jehovah himself doing the talking. (Ex 3:1-5)

The incident with the three men who approached Abraham at Mamre is the same. Three angelic messengers came, and one spoke for Jehovah. The other two went on to Sodom to rescue Lot before they destroyed the city.
 

Crypto2015

Active Member
You can quote all the scripture you like but none of it says Jesus is Almighty God. The apostles never once said that Jesus was Almighty God. Jesus did not once say that he was Almighty God...so what does that leave you with? Supposition...inference...a false doctrine introduced hundreds of years after Jesus died....but no facts...no direct statements confirming any of what you believe. The Jews did not worship a triune God....Jesus was Jewish and not one word out of his mouth even hinted at the possibility that he was God incarnate.



Are you assuming that John lied? Has a man seen God in person? (Exodus 33:17-20)
You assume that God came down to earth in person, in a human body to speak with Abraham? And he ate a meal prepared by Sarah? Really?
The Most supreme Sovereign has no need to appear in person to his human servants...that is why he has angels (messengers) to do that for him.

In his encounter with the burning bush, God spoke to Moses by means of an angel. The angel spoke in the first person as if it were Jehovah himself doing the talking. (Ex 3:1-5)

The incident with the three men who approached Abraham at Mamre is the same. Three angelic messengers came, and one spoke for Jehovah. The other two went on to Sodom to rescue Lot before they destroyed the city.

There is no supposition and no inference from my part. The verses are clearly teaching that Jesus is Yahweh. The problem is that you refuse to accept it.

Likewise, in Genesis 18 it is very clearly that Abraham was visited by Yahweh and two angels.

"And the Lord (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord" (Yahweh) if I have found favour in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” (Genesis 18:1-5)

and

" So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord (Yahweh). Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” And the Lord (Yahweh) said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” (Genesis 18:22-25)

and

"The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom." (Genesis 19:1)

So, the three men were two angels and Yahweh. Abraham saw God, but not God the Father (whom no one can see), but God the Son, Jesus Christ.

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." (Hebrews 1:3)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is no supposition and no inference from my part. The verses are clearly teaching that Jesus is Yahweh. The problem is that you refuse to accept it.

Likewise, in Genesis 18 it is very clearly that Abraham was visited by Yahweh and two angels.

"And the Lord (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord" (Yahweh) if I have found favour in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” (Genesis 18:1-5)

and

" So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord (Yahweh). Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” And the Lord (Yahweh) said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” (Genesis 18:22-25)

and

"The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom." (Genesis 19:1)

So, the three men were two angels and Yahweh. Abraham saw God, but not God the Father (whom no one can see), but God the Son, Jesus Christ.

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." (Hebrews 1:3)

You can believe whatever you wish Crypto.....my God is not your God and never will be.
 
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