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Jesus Did Not Die On A Cross

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
The Christian cross is a pagan symbol and should have NO place in Christian worship.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm

Quote: Wearing or making the so-called sign of the cross is a curse! “We Christians neither want, nor worship crosses as the pagans do” – Minucius Felix (Christian author, circa 200 A.D.)
The pagan roots of Christianity are clearly indicated by this confession. Tertullian was a Christian who later became a Gnostic. He implies that Christians borrowed the sun-god myth.

The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.


Religious dogma that becomes tradition even if it's pagan and wrong.
Satan does have control of Babylon the Great the Harlot that deceives the world.
Babylon the Great = false religion.
Research it for yourself.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
The Christian cross is a pagan symbol and should have NO place in Christian worship.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm

Quote: Wearing or making the so-called sign of the cross is a curse! “We Christians neither want, nor worship crosses as the pagans do” – Minucius Felix (Christian author, circa 200 A.D.)
The pagan roots of Christianity are clearly indicated by this confession. Tertullian was a Christian who later became a Gnostic. He implies that Christians borrowed the sun-god myth.

The cross is a pagan symbol that was adored in Egypt thousands of years before Jesus was born. The Roman Catholic Church adopted the cross symbol at least 600 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. Even the early Christians of North Africa rejected the wooden cross after Tertullian condemned it.


Religious dogma that becomes tradition even if it's pagan and wrong.
Satan does have control of Babylon the Great the Harlot that deceives the world.
Babylon the Great = false religion.
Research it for yourself.
Please be so kind as to present a symbol that was not once pagan.
 
You are right that Jesus wasn't ''sacrificed''.

I never said that Jesus wasn't "sacrificed" - indeed he was. The problem though with mainstream teaching though is that the masses have forgotten or just do not know or understand what a sacrifice is, in light of biblical (Levitical) law, that is.

In the Judaec law found in Exodus and Leviticus, there were rules for the murderous sacrifice of innocent animals in the temple, and different animals were used for different purposes. For instance, they might have killed an animal in their herd to atone for wrongdoing or to pray for protection or well-being. What a barbaric SIGHT it must have been! No matter how you cut it (pun incidental...), the ritual was a gory mess if you can picture it The priest would slaughter the animal as strictly outlined so it would be kosher for eating, splash its blood on the sides of the alter grill and "burn" (cook) the body on the alter grill so that the fragrant smoke would ascend, then the burnt (cooked) offering was eaten.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
No, I believe there was no actual Jesus dying on any cross, the cross is simply a metaphor, its when we allow our carnal self, the false self, to be nailed down, so as to let our true inner Self arise. The nailing down is simply giving up the senses that tempt us, and keep us away from our true Self, and of course this is known as the resurrection, but sadly it all got out of hand because of taking the stories as being literal.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Yea I believe they didn't know or were ready back then for the true Sacrifice, that is of one's self, whereas in the New testament it hints at our own Sacrifice through the metaphors of the story of Jesus being Sacrificed, which of course is our own story. When we see a man called Jesus doing it all, then we miss out of the truth of the whole story, we place Jesus up on a pedestal, so high that we can never truly know the truth.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I think that the 'sacrifice', isn't Jesus's problem. It's ours. If you read the narrative, really, what does 'Jesus', sacrifice? The inference is that we are the ones who have to deal with these ideas. As far as Jesus being on a pedestal, I believe that that is ok. That should not be some sort of excuse, though, agreed
Na, I kicked him off years ago, he only kept me away from finding my true inner Self.
 
No, I believe there was no actual Jesus dying on any cross

That's possible. It's also possible that there was no actual Moses since there is no evidence of his existence either.

the cross is simply a metaphor

Many historians credit the Romans with being the first to crucify on an actual cross. The Romans knew exactly what they were doing. In fact the Romans actually became masters at the art of crucifixion. They were not the originators because they had designed things, they had fine-tuned things so that they could create so much pain.

The Romans introduced two styles of crosses. The Tau (a capital T shape)…

upload_2016-8-1_8-8-11.png



And the Latin (a lower-case t)…


upload_2016-8-1_8-8-19.png



Both forms consist of 2 wooden beams. The Tau crucifix was easier to manage, only having to attach the top beam the victim was tied to to the post. The Latin crucifix would require the (heavy) victim to be raised on the entire (heavy) cross, then get the post into the ground with the victim on it, then secure the post in the ground – very difficult to do.

Crucifixion on a cross as we imagine it may have evolved as a practice of leading the victims through the streets, having been tied to the crossbeam, so as they were walking through the streets with their arms outstretched, the next step was to hoist that up onto the stake.

The Tau shape is considered the shape most frequently used by the Romans. The Latin cross is what we (the masses) have been lead to believe to be the type of cross on which Jesus was crucified, but it is likely that it was a Tau cross from which he was hung.
 
I cannot see how you would verify any of that, especially the eating part.

Perry the Platypus, it's in the bible, if people read with understanding and use common sense. What it means to sacrifice was briefly explained in my post #24 of this Discussion. The sacrifice Jesus made of himself for his disciples is based on his command to them stated in John 6:53. Where do you think the ritual ceremony of Communion, Sacrament, Eucharist (or whatever the label) comes from? Certainly not from the last supper before THE LAST supper, because he ate with his disciples on many occasions after he left the tomb.

I am not going to reinvent the wheel for you. If you want to understand his sacrifice of himself for his disciples when they obeyed his command, go to the "Did the Disciples Eat Jesus?" Discussion here: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/did-the-disciples-eat-jesus.187884/ so as not to distract this Discussion of how he did not die on a cross.

Just this one time, however, I will digress to answer your post. Please direct all other comments on the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood to the appropriate Discussion. Thank you. Everything should be done in decency and in order in order to avoid chaos and confusion, agreed?

Throughout his ordeal he is already very spicy smelling, because Mary Magdalene anoints him for death ahead of his trial.

False. Jesus was not anointed by Mary for death, but rather to numb pain, and when he was taken off the cross alive, Joseph of Arimathea (the priest who likely performed his final sacrifice) put him in his own personal tomb where his disciples visited in violation of the sabbath to bring him healing concoctions.

John 19:38-42: "And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, BESOUGHT PILATE THAT HE MIGHT TAKE AWAY THE BODY OF JESUS: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand."

It indicates right there that Nicodemus came to the tomb that night with myrrh and aloes, and THEY took him and tended to his wounds. According to the text, it clearly appears that initially, Joseph of Aramathea put jesus in the tomb alone (by himself) and then they(Nicodemus and whomever accompanied him) moved him that NIGHT to a tomb more convenient to get to. I like John's version of the tale of jesus, because john gave most important details that the other 3 (Mark, Matthew and Luke) fail to mention.

in addition to enjoying its aromatherapeutic properties, I have also use Myrrh on my skin to "sterilize" and promote healing of skin wounds, especially caused by acne breakouts. After an initial sting of the oil, I literally feel blood circulating around wounded areas on the skin, followed by a surprisingly pleasant feeling of cool comfort that is really neat.<p> </p>It is used in aromatherapy for its healing, purifying and uplifting characteristics. Some of myrrh oil's healing characteristics are that it is an antiseptic, deodorant, stimulant, as well as a fungicidal agent and tonic.

In the past, Myrrh was used by many cultures for religious ceremonies and medicinally as a healing agent. It is interesting to note that it is mentioned in john's recount of what went down at the tomb the night the man called jesus was in there:"And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices

The Egyptians believed in its healing powers; they burned it every day as part of their worshipping rituals. In the Greek culture, when soldiers went to battle, it was an essential part of their combat gear because of Myrrh's extremely high antiseptic and anti-inflammatory properties. It was used to clean wounds and to prevent infection. It was also used to prevent the spread of gangrene in already infected parts of the body.

In today's society, it is still still used to prevent the spread of gangrene.

The following is a snippit from Scott Cunningham's Magical Aromatherapy: The Power of Scent:
MYRRH (Comniphora myrrha) PART USED: essential oil, the oleo-gum resin
INFLUENCES: Spirituality, Meditation, Healing
This exotic substance has been used in magic and religion for at least 4,000 years
Inhale the fragrance of the essential oil or the crushed resin (more properly, oleo-gum-resin) to awaken awareness of the spiritual reality behind our everyday existence. This is an excellent tool to use prior to or during religious riguals. The resultant expanded awareness also calms fears and halts questions concerning the future.

Similarly, sniff myrrh prior to meditation to achieve a fitting mood. Or, inhale the richly bitter scent with visualization to speed healing of the physical body.

upload_2016-8-1_9-19-14.png
Are you following...?

As for the healing powers of "aloes," Aloe Vera is a plant that possesses great curative properties. Of the 200 types of Aloe Vera, Aloe Barbadensis is the one that has the greatist nutritional and therapeutic value. The aloe gel is obtained from within the leaves, from which it is necessary to remove the peel or skin, revealing a slimy, sticky gelatin-like tissue containing tremendous medicinal characteristics. This amazing aloe gel should not be exposed to the elements for more than 2 hours since it oxidizes easily, and loses some of its theraputic properties, so it is necessary to stabilize it or refrigerate it to neutralize the undesirable effects of oxygenation. People all over the world use aloe vera gel on their skin to keep it supple and free from blemishes. In the old times, aloe was used as a healing herb for wounds of soldiers. It can prevent hairloss when rubbed on the scalp and it helps in the treatment of frostbite and other skin diseases. Further, it is a pain inhibitor and anti-viral, fights viruses when used in a greater than 75% concentration and applied directly to the virus. Additionally, aloe is a cell regenerator, having a harmone that accelerates the growth of new cells, also eliminating the old ones. It helps repair damaged tissues from the inside out.

Note that according to John's story, "they" came to jesus by night, which would mean that according to jewish law, Nicodemus and some others violated the sabbath for their friend in order to bring him even more stuff to annoint his body with and perhaps even consume for more speedy healing. Nicodemus was no joke either ~ he didn't just bring enough for one or two applications or treatments ~ he brought ONE HUNDRED POUNDS of the healing concoction he mixed and prepared for jesus to use. That was enough to last months.

Now, read the text with clarity and notice that it was not a formaldehyde or mixture of embalming ointment for a corpse. They made believe that's what they were doing: "...and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, AS [meaning, "LIKE"] the manner of the Jews is to bury". Although they put on a good show, they clearly were not preparing a dead body for burial, but rather treating a live and wounded man for healing.

(continued in the next post....)
 
Also the disciples don't follow the Talmud, so Talmudic rules about spices are specious for speculating about what the disciples consider lawful.

Who said anything about the disciples following the Talmud? Of course his diswciples didn't follow Talmud because the Talmud did not come into existence until decades after Jesus was eaten! Talmud was brought about by the European (German) converts who are called Jewish today, who inhabited the land that is called Israel (Palestine) thinking the promise of God would be theirs, not understanding that Israel is not a place, but it is a people and that the promise of God is to the children of Israel no matter how far and wide across the globe they may be scattered.

That means you have seriously miscalculated about the spice thing, and the eating thing seems preposterous besides.

cannibalism is not an unusual fact of life for those from some other cultures. For some, live spiders, ants, roaches, bugs and maggots are delicacies, but you would probably perish the thought of letting certain things you are unfamiliar with consuming cross your lips, and that is understandable. That's why he lost "many" disciples and was left with just twelve, amen? (See john 6:66-67: "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?")

Americans, with the exception of the likes of Hanibal Lector and others, prefer a Western diet consisting of cooked fish, meats of all sorts of animal species like birds (chicken, turkey, quail, duck...), other animals like cows, goats, buffalo, pig..... Understand that Human Beings are a species of animal and realize that there are some cannibal animal species who also eat their own kind. For example, just the other evening I was watching an Animal Planet episode of "Weird, True and Freaky" where the Tasmanian Devil eats all the offspring that don't make it to one of her limited-number of nipples as soon as they're born. There are spiders like the Black Widow that consume other Black Widow spiders, there are insects that consume other insects of their kind, snakes that consume other snakes, fish that consume other fish, birds that consume other birds, wild animals that consume other same wild animals, and people who consume other people. And look at the area of the world where all of those events were said to have taken place. It is an area a hop, skip and a jump near where cannibalism is known even to this day to be a part of the people's culture.

Cannibalism may be seen as a horrific act in our modern world, but the further back in history you go, the less that is the case. In many parts of Africa and Polynesia people only ate those they admired. It was the highest form of respect and honor, and yes, it was a way of quite literally becoming "one" with the person that was revered, to in some way, create a spiritual connection from within in a very literal sense.

For instance, in 1824, Brigadier-General Sir Charles McCarthy was killed fighting the Ashanti. They ate his heart and lined his skull with gold to make it into a ceremonial drinking cup. They did that to honor his bravery as a warrior. It might seem bizarre to our modern sensibilities, but to a more primitive society... nope, not at all in the least bit. Things have changed since then though, and nowadays cannibalism is more often the act of a twisted mind and/or considered taboo.

In the bestseller (urban science-fiction?) book entitled Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein (great book!), it was an honor to grok with each other and to be grokked by others. In Mr. Heinlein's invented Martian language, "grok" literally means "to drink" and figuratively means "to understand," "to love," and "to be one with."

I honestly do not imagine that it had to be a gory mess either, although I do admit to being puzzled by the christian's proclaimed desire to be covered with and/or washed in blood.

upload_2016-8-1_9-21-31.png


That’s a picture of Carrie from the 1970’s movie. Does "Carrie" look clean to you?

upload_2016-8-1_9-21-46.png


All this is in this and the preceding post is basically a cut and paste of what I've already said in the "Did the Disciples Eat Jesus" discussion.

That doesn't mean that you are necessarily wrong, but you have a long way to go to conclude what you have. You certainly didn't get it from the NT.

That's exactly where I got it and if you'd like to conclude, go to the appropriate Discussion.

I was reading this seriously up until that point.

Again, "Did the Disciples Eat Jesus?" is here: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/did-the-disciples-eat-jesus.187884/
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Who said anything about the disciples following the Talmud?
You say its unlawful for them to carry spices, and you say its from the Bible. That's not from the Bible. I'm letting you know that it isn't.
Cannibalism may be seen as a horrific act in our modern world, but the further back in history you go, the less that is the case.
*Shrugs* This does not make any good argument that Jesus disciples would eat him.
It indicates right there that Nicodemus came to the tomb that night with myrrh and aloes, and THEY took him and tended to his wounds.
Are you sure Nicodemus wasn't there to eat him?
Perry the Platypus
He's my cousin. There's a striking resemblance.
For instance, in 1824, Brigadier-General Sir Charles McCarthy was killed fighting the Ashanti. They ate his heart and lined his skull with gold to make it into a ceremonial drinking cup. They did that to honor his bravery as a warrior. It might seem bizarre to our modern sensibilities, but to a more primitive society... nope, not at all in the least bit.
Its a perfectly reasonable way to treat an Englishman. Half of them would beg for that kind of honorable death and the other half would need very little convincing about the sense of it.
In the bestseller (urban science-fiction?) book entitled Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein (great book!), it was an honor to grok with each other and to be grokked by others.
I believe I may have read that as a teenager and then forgot the title. I need to check that book out and see if that was it.
Note that according to John's story, "they" came to jesus by night, which would mean that according to jewish law, Nicodemus and some others violated the sabbath for their friend in order to bring him even more stuff to annoint his body with and perhaps even consume for more speedy healing.
You don't seem familiar with Jewish law, and you can't get the Jewish law from the NT. Its not in the NT, but I assure you that it doesn't say not to carry spices or not to walk at night. That's not in there, and people in Bible times had torches so that at night they could go places.
I am not going to reinvent the wheel for you. If you want to understand his sacrifice of himself for his disciples when they obeyed his command, go to the "Did the Disciples Eat Jesus?"
Its the least you could do. I just reinvented triangles for your sake. Do you appreciate it?
False. Jesus was not anointed by Mary for death, but rather to numb pain, and when he was taken off the cross alive, Joseph of Arimathea (the priest who likely performed his final sacrifice) put him in his own personal tomb where his disciples visited in violation of the sabbath to bring him healing concoctions.
What did you read the Lego Bible? He sat there and told them it was anointing for his death, and Mary was smarter than the twelve. It was a big deal.
In the past, Myrrh was used by many cultures for religious ceremonies and medicinally as a healing agent. It is interesting to note that it is mentioned in john's recount of what went down at the tomb the night the man called jesus was in there:"And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices

The Egyptians believed in its healing powers; they burned it every day as part of their worshipping rituals. In the Greek culture, when soldiers went to battle, it was an essential part of their combat gear because of Myrrh's extremely high antiseptic and anti-inflammatory properties. It was used to clean wounds and to prevent infection. It was also used to prevent the spread of gangrene in already infected parts of the body.

In today's society, it is still still used to prevent the spread of gangrene.

The following is a snippit from Scott Cunningham's Magical Aromatherapy: The Power of Scent:
MYRRH (Comniphora myrrha) PART USED: essential oil, the oleo-gum resin
INFLUENCES: Spirituality, Meditation, Healing
This exotic substance has been used in magic and religion for at least 4,000 years
Inhale the fragrance of the essential oil or the crushed resin (more properly, oleo-gum-resin) to awaken awareness of the spiritual reality behind our everyday existence. This is an excellent tool to use prior to or during religious riguals. The resultant expanded awareness also calms fears and halts questions concerning the future.

Similarly, sniff myrrh prior to meditation to achieve a fitting mood. Or, inhale the richly bitter scent with visualization to speed healing of the physical body.

upload_2016-8-1_9-19-14-png.13896
Are you following...?

As for the healing powers of "aloes," Aloe Vera is a plant that possesses great curative properties. Of the 200 types of Aloe Vera, Aloe Barbadensis is the one that has the greatist nutritional and therapeutic value. The aloe gel is obtained from within the leaves, from which it is necessary to remove the peel or skin, revealing a slimy, sticky gelatin-like tissue containing tremendous medicinal characteristics. This amazing aloe gel should not be exposed to the elements for more than 2 hours since it oxidizes easily, and loses some of its theraputic properties, so it is necessary to stabilize it or refrigerate it to neutralize the undesirable effects of oxygenation. People all over the world use aloe vera gel on their skin to keep it supple and free from blemishes. In the old times, aloe was used as a healing herb for wounds of soldiers. It can prevent hairloss when rubbed on the scalp and it helps in the treatment of frostbite and other skin diseases. Further, it is a pain inhibitor and anti-viral, fights viruses when used in a greater than 75% concentration and applied directly to the virus. Additionally, aloe is a cell regenerator, having a harmone that accelerates the growth of new cells, also eliminating the old ones. It helps repair damaged tissues from the inside out.
Lavender helps with BO and tea tree oil can help get rid of athlete's foot. I like the new data about aloe, myrr and so forth; but Jesus disciples did not eat Jesus. In the first place he's only considered a sacrifice by Paul, and that's only because Paul is the apostle to the gentiles. The Jewish apostles don't consider his death a sacrifice as it is irrelevant to Jews to call it that.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Masses of catholics and christians and even others of various religious belief systems believe through mainstream teaching that Jesus died on a cross, was buried and on the third day rose from the dead.

But according to biblical scripture and common sense if you can read with understanding, that's not even true.

In short, what happened was that he was hung on a cross, taken down alive, put in a tomb, his disciples violated the sabbath to bring him healing herbs and spices, then they moved him to another tomb, he hung out with his disciples for a little over a month, offered himself as a sacrifice for the sin of his disciples to atone for their violation of the sabbath and they ate him.

Like I said, if you read the bible with understanding, it is all in scripture.

How do you feel knowing that what you have been taught is not true? For me, when truth was revealed to me, I felt let down, like how I felt as a child when I found out there is no such thing as Santa Claus after all.
Out of curiosity, which version of the Bible are you referring to?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok, I will compromise with you. Maybe Jesus ate his disciples as a sacrifice?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Actually, no, I am not "black girl" - what would make you say that? And what doe sthat have to do with Jesus not dying on a cross? Stay on topic.
I wasn't referring to you personally. I was referring to your implausible theories about Jesus being black and female.

Personally I don't think you know any more about Jesus than I do. And you're willing to assert implausible things based on your own preference.
I've read the Bible and drawn very different conclusions. I have tried to understand Jesus by reading the reports and comparing them in different ways.
Jesus dying on a cross after being convicted of treason is extremely plausible. Rising from the dead, or escaping Roman "justice" , not so much.

The simple fact that He was tortured and crucified, but left no mark on the times, is solid evidence to me that the Jesus worshiped by later people is a figure of legend. Christian Jesus is a fictional character.
Tom
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
That's possible. It's also possible that there was no actual Moses since there is no evidence of his existence either.



Many historians credit the Romans with being the first to crucify on an actual cross. The Romans knew exactly what they were doing. In fact the Romans actually became masters at the art of crucifixion. They were not the originators because they had designed things, they had fine-tuned things so that they could create so much pain.

The Romans introduced two styles of crosses. The Tau (a capital T shape)…

View attachment 13891


And the Latin (a lower-case t)…


View attachment 13892


Both forms consist of 2 wooden beams. The Tau crucifix was easier to manage, only having to attach the top beam the victim was tied to to the post. The Latin crucifix would require the (heavy) victim to be raised on the entire (heavy) cross, then get the post into the ground with the victim on it, then secure the post in the ground – very difficult to do.

Crucifixion on a cross as we imagine it may have evolved as a practice of leading the victims through the streets, having been tied to the crossbeam, so as they were walking through the streets with their arms outstretched, the next step was to hoist that up onto the stake.

The Tau shape is considered the shape most frequently used by the Romans. The Latin cross is what we (the masses) have been lead to believe to be the type of cross on which Jesus was crucified, but it is likely that it was a Tau cross from which he was hung.
Interesting, but it doesn't matter what he supposedly was hung on, the whole story is just that, I see the story as a metaphor.
 
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