It's not about terrorists, it's about theocracy

Sabour said:

"radicalize: to cause (someone) to become an advocate of radical political or social reform."

I asked you to define the word radical, and you used the word radical in the definition? Seriously ?

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Fair enough, there are several overlapping and related conversations in this thread, I was referring to "radicalize" not "radical". As far as "radical" in this conversation goes, I would say something like "in opposition to secularism" or perhaps "theocratic".

Sabour said:

"radicalize: to cause (someone) to become an advocate of radical political or social reform."

I asked you to define the word radical, and you used the word radical in the definition? Seriously ?

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In the words of Maajid Nawaz it is simply defined as "the desire to impose any given interpretation of Islam over society as law" (Radical, 2013, p. 45).

Marsh said:

Sharia law supports stoning of women for consensual sex, it supports the cutting off of hands for theft, it supports the killing of homosexuals, and I believe it is not unreasonable to suggest many Muslims in countries practicing Sharia law also support these things. In my books this makes them radical Islamists. Certainly these are medieval practices that have been brought into the modern age. Any country supporting these practices is backward, and any people or culture supporting these practices is backward. All of this needs to be outlawed. Do you agree?

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No. You know nothing about sharia law.

The punishments posed are essentially to deter people from doing these actions.

Do you know the amount of evidence required for stoning a women? It requires 4 eye witnesses. Do you know how many times this punishment happened at the times of the prophets ? Zero

As for cutting hands of theft, I would like you to go to prisons and ask people there if they had to choose between prison and cutting one hand off and living with their families, see what they would choose.

In the times of Khalifa Umar Ibn Lkhattab, there was a case when an employer was accusing two of his employees of stealing something. When Umar was investigating about it, the two employees confessed. So Umar asked them what pushed you into doing this. From their explanation he understood that the employer wasn't giving them enough money to survive and they were suffering from hunger. The answer from Omar Ibn Lkhattab to them was like you shall go without any harm. He told the employer that if you ever do this again and you push your employees to steal, it will be you who will have his hand cut off.

Another story happened with the same Khalifa when muslims had to deal with a problem of hunger all over because of a natural thing. I think it was because of grasshoppers. Hunger was getting at all people. So Khalifa Umar Ibn Lkhattab stopped the punishment of cutting the hand due to the circumstances.

Most of people know NOTHING about sharia law nor do they know what it entails yet speak about it as they were experts of it.

Moishe3rd said:

Your belief is factually incorrect.
The Jews of Germany and Austria in particular; the two major countries where Hitler would have been in contact with Jews, were nearly 100% assimilated into German culture. They were, in most ways, far, far more "German" than was Hitler.
Jew hatred was canonized by the Roman Catholic church and continued through the "Enlightenment" as the Western world had created the ideas that "Jews" were somehow a separate race of people no matter their origins; ethnicity; nationality; or indeed, their religious beliefs.
The was nothing that distinguished a German Jew from a German non Jew.

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In 1881 conditions in Russia deteriorated so badly for Jews that many were massacred. Hundreds of thousands, many of them poor itinerant beggars, all Jews, flooded into Germany, which caused a steep rise in antisemitism. They did not look like the rest of Germany's Jews. I think many were Orthodox. They stood out, and they took many low end jobs. In his youth, Hitler, as a poor starving artist in Vienna came to despise them. He never lost that hatred.

Sabour said:

No. You know nothing about sharia law.

The punishments posed are essentially to deter people from doing these actions.

Do you know the amount of evidence required for stoning a women? It requires 4 eye witnesses. Do you know how many times this punishment happened at the times of the prophets ? Zero

As for cutting hands of theft, I would like you to go to prisons and ask people there if they had to choose between prison and cutting one hand off and living with their families, see what they would choose.

In the times of Khalifa Umar Ibn Lkhattab, there was a case when an employer was accusing two of his employees of stealing something. When Umar was investigating about it, the two employees confessed. So Umar asked them what pushed you into doing this. From their explanation he understood that the employer wasn't giving them enough money to survive and they were suffering from hunger. The answer from Omar Ibn Lkhattab to them was like you shall go without any harm. He told the employer that if you ever do this again and you push your employees to steal, it will be you who will have his hand cut off.

Another story happened with the same Khalifa when muslims had to deal with a problem of hunger all over because of a natural thing. I think it was because of grasshoppers. Hunger was getting at all people. So Khalifa Umar Ibn Lkhattab stopped the punishment of cutting the hand due to the circumstances.

Most of people know NOTHING about sharia law nor do they know what it entails yet speak about it as they were experts of it.

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There are many layers to Sharia. You seem knowledgeable at a few layers, but you haven't even acknowledged other layers. I suspect you know many other layers, but they're hard to defend so you don't bring them up.

Saint Frankenstein said:

A Christian should be the last one to use that argument against another religion. Every time Christianity is not kept in place by the law, you guys go nuts with your discrimination, persecution, genocide, murderous moral panics, hysteria, etc. That nuttiness was the biggest part of the reason why Enlightenment secularism came about in the first place.

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Sorry, I believe in human rights, not gay rights.

Marsh said:

The problem of persecution by religious groups is always at its worst anytime those groups gain political power. Currently, in our present age, it is Islam that has political power and it is abusing that power by subverting human rights. The examples are legion.

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And in other countries, it's Christianity that holds political power, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Marxism, etc. and is abusing that power by subverting human rights. The examples are legion. America, Russia and China are the countries that are ultimately behind much of the turmoil and abuse we see in the world today. The mess in the Middle East and North Africa, for example, are a series of proxy wars mainly between the US and Russia. It's just a continuance of what was going on in the Cold War.

Sonofason said:

Sorry, I believe in human rights, not gay rights.

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Thanks for showing your hypocrisy and proving my point.

Marsh said:

Sharia law supports stoning of women for consensual sex, it supports the cutting off of hands for theft, it supports the killing of homosexuals, and I believe it is not unreasonable to suggest many Muslims in countries practicing Sharia law also support these things. In my books this makes them radical Islamists. Certainly these are medieval practices that have been brought into the modern age. Any country supporting these practices is backward, and any people or culture supporting these practices is backward. All of this needs to be outlawed. Do you agree?

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Going backwards...
Yes.
The practices you state are a crime against G-d and Man.
"Backward"? Not really. Barbarous might be a better description. There are cruel barbarians all over planet Earth - from the suites of the very wealthy to the ghettos of the very poor and everything in between.
There are only two races of man - the decent and the indecent (Victor Frankl)
No - they are not medieval. They are cruel and unjust. Is is any less cruel to rape and enslave a woman in a street gang in Chicago than it is to stone her to death in Iran? Barbarism is not exclusive to some warped religious ideology.
Yes, they are Islamists. Radical Islamists. Islamo-fascist Muslims. Bad people.
And, lastly - "Sharia" is many, many, many things. It means Law. And Sharia in Riyadh is different than Sharia in Bombay which is different than Sharia in Beirut which is different than Sharia in Tashkent which is different than Sharia in Dearborn, Michigan... There is NO universal "Sharia." And, all things considered, where Muslims try and practice Sharia in many places - stoning; cutting off of hands; and killing homosexuals are all relatively rare and unusual things which mostly do NOT happen in places where Muslims try and practice Sharia....

icehorse said:

There are many layers to Sharia. You seem knowledgeable at a few layers, but you haven't even acknowledged other layers. I suspect you know many other layers, but they're hard to defend so you don't bring them up.

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Islamic sharia is the way in which muslims were ordered to live their lives according to the Quraan and to the life of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

Sharia mainly instructs about our relation with God, our relation to ourselves, and our relation to to the society.

You are right, sharia is broad, yet Westerners only no the capital punishments about it (which isn't even 1 % of what sharia is) . They don't even know the conditions for these punishments and they walk making judgement about it.

Take a look at this study. It is intended to measure the extent to which some countries follow the sharia law. These countries were ranked according to this at appendix 2. The first islamic country in the ranking is number 38 which is Malaysia. Turkey is ranked 103. Saudi Arabia is ranked 131 ( I didn't put the full ranking in the reply)

http://www.ahmad-juhaidi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/how-islamic-islamic-countries.pdf

Here is the table if you don't want to go to the link


1. New Zealand

2. Luxembourg

3. Ireland

4. Iceland

5. Finland

6. Denmark

7. Canada

8. U.K.

9. Australia

10. Netherlands

11. Austria

12. Norway

13. Switzerland

14. Belgium

15. Sweden

16. Portugal

17. Germany

18. Bahamas

19. France

20. Czech Rep

21. Estonia

22. Costa Rica

23. Spain

24. Barbados

25. U. S.

26. Slovenia

27. Hong Kong, China

28. Latvia

29. Japan

30. Malta

31. Hungary

32. Slovak Republic

33. Italy

34. Chile

35. Lithuania

36. Cyprus

37. Singapore

38. Malaysia

39. Panama

40. Trinidad and Tobago

41. Poland

42. Mauritius

43. Croatia

44. St. Vincent and the Gren

45. Namibia

46. Greece

47. Jamaica

48. Kuwait

49. Uruguay

50. South Africa

51. Botswana

52. St. Lucia

53. Ghana

54. Argentina

55. Brazil

56. Mexico

57. Bulgaria

58. El Salvador

59. Philippines

60. Dominica

61. Israel

62. Monaco

63. Lesotho

64. Bahrain

65. Brunei

66. Romania

67. United Arab Emirates

68. Belize

69. Andorra

70. Cayman Islands

71. Seychelles

72. Fiji

73. Uganda

74. Tanzania

75. Antigua and Barbuda

76. Gabon

77. Jordan

78. Thailand

79. Grenada

80. San Marino

81. China

82. Nicaragua

83. Cape Verde

84. Macao, China

85. Tunisia

86. Colombia

87. Dominican Republic

88. Peru

89. India

90. Aruba

91. Russian Federation

92. Honduras

93. Greenland

94. Guyana

95. Netherlands Antilles

96. Mozambique

97. Mongolia

98. Macedonia, FYR

99. Oman

100. Suriname

101. Bosnia and Herzegovina

102. Ukraine

103. Turkey

104. Maldives

105. Liechtenstein

106. Korea, Rep.

107. Kazakhstan

108. Timor‐Leste

109. Senegal

110. Albania

111. Moldova

112. Qatar

113. Puerto Rico

114. Armenia

115. Kiribati

116. Sri Lanka

117. Georgia

118. St. Kitts and Nevis

119. Morocco

120. Northern Mariana Islands

121. Papua New Guinea

122. Zambia

123. Bolivia

124. Gambia, The

125. Azerbaijan

126. Ecuador

127. Guatemala

128. Belarus

129. Malawi

Saint Frankenstein said:

And in other countries, it's Christianity that holds political power, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Marxism, etc. and is abusing that power by subverting human rights. The examples are legion. America, Russia and China are the countries that are ultimately behind much of the turmoil and abuse we see in the world today. The mess in the Middle East and North Africa, for example, are a series of proxy wars mainly between the US and Russia. It's just a continuance of what was going on in the Cold War.

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You really believe that?
Why?
How?
It's silly.
You think that Muslims and Arabs slaughtering each other by the hundreds of thousands recently and by the millions over the last 100 years - is a result of the Cold War?
You think the conquest and slaughter of the Arabian Peninsula by the tribe of al Saud (first in the 1700's; then the 1800's) from the 1890's up until around 1930 was the result of the conflicts of the West?
No. It was not.
The Arab/Muslim world has been at war with each other all over planet Earth since the Ottoman Empire disintegrated. If there were no Russia; no China; no US; no Israel - they would be slaughtering each other in Greater numbers - not less.

Sabour said:

Take a look at this study. It is intended to measure the extent to which some countries follow the sharia law.

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I disagree with the framing of this study. Most of the metrics captured in this study are universal, and predate Islam. They do not follow Sharia, Sharia attempts to usurp them and claim them.

icehorse said:

I disagree with the framing of this study. Most of the metrics captured in this study are universal, and predate Islam. They do not follow Sharia, Sharia attempts to usurp them and claim them.

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It seems like that for you because you know nothing about Sharia. You want to believe in your own version.

Well never mind anyways.

Sabour said:

It seems like that for you because you know nothing about Sharia. You want to believe in your own version.

Well never mind anyways.

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I read / skimmed the long report you asked us all to read. Now as it turns out, I DO know something about Sharia, but in this case I didn't really need to, because the writers of the report took the tack of claiming for Islam that which predates Islam.

icehorse said:

Fair enough, there are several overlapping and related conversations in this thread, I was referring to "radicalize" not "radical". As far as "radical" in this conversation goes, I would say something like "in opposition to secularism" or perhaps "theocratic".

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Please keep in mind the modern definition of Theocracy ( God Rule ) means rule by a clergy or rule by clergy class.
The Theocracy that Jesus believed in was the Theocracy of Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13-14 which is government by God, or God's kingdom government of a thousand years under Christ.
God's kingdom ( thy kingdom come ) government is the government which will bring global Peace on Earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill. At the end of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then Jesus will give back God's kingdom government to his God - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

icehorse said:

I read / skimmed the long report you asked us all to read. Now as it turns out, I DO know something about Sharia, but in this case I didn't really need to, because the writers of the report took the tack of claiming for Islam that which predates Islam.

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I read it over too. Frankly, this "study" is completely worthless.