I don't understand Christian charity

9-10ths_Penguin · Jun 30, 2016

I can't reconcile the idea of Christians engaging in charitable works with what I know of Christian beliefs. Nevertheless, I recognize that many Christians not only engage in charity, but consider it a pillar of their faith.

If that describes you, maybe you can answer a few questions:

- if death isn't final and is just the transition to something better, why work to save lives?

- if earthly suffering earns the sufferer reward in Heaven, wouldn't alleviating their suffering end up being worse for them in the long run?

- doesn't intervening in the world seek to undermine God's plan? I've seen plenty of Christians describe some hardship as being "God's will" by giving them some benefit or teaching them something that wasn't apparent until after they had been through it. Doesn't working to stop hardship seek to eliminate these sorts of experiences?

- if you think God (or Christ) is going to perfect the world and right all wrongs, what difference will your actions make? Isn't any evil or suffering you might alleviate now already set to be addressed by someone infinitely more capable than you?

I'm pretty active in volunteer work and charitable causes, but this is informed by my atheism: I don't expect any gods to swoop down and do all the things that I think need doing, so if they're going to happen, *I* need to make them happen. I don't understand the motivations for charity when that mindset doesn't apply, and I'd appreciate your help in achieving some sort of understanding.

Losin · Jun 30, 2016

It is easy Matthew 25:31 - 46

1. In Catholicism you are not saved by faith alone, so you must do good deeds to get into heaven.
2.I did not know that you get to heaven by suffering. Where did you get that information ?
3. God will not perfect the world, he respects free will so he does not invtervene if he is not asked to do so.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jun 30, 2016

Losin said:
It is easy Matthew 25:31 - 46

So you think you're being tested, and that charitable works are a good way to justify to God that you're worthy of receiving more?

9-10ths_Penguin · Jun 30, 2016

Losin said:
2.I did not know that you get to heaven by suffering. Where did you get that information ?

I didn't say "get to Heaven"; I said "reward in Heaven". I got it from the Sermon on the Mount.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jun 30, 2016

Just to address the other two points:

Losin said:
1. In Catholicism you are not saved by faith alone, so you must do good deeds to get into heaven.

But for a deed to be good, it has to serve some good purpose, right? What additional good can you do if God's already on the case?

As an analogy, when I see the fire department on scene at a burning building, I don't rush in to help. This isn't because I'm not motivated to do good for the people who live there - quite the opposite, in fact. I just realize that I with my fire extinguisher and a few hours of training can't do anything that a team of well-trained, well-equipped professional firefighters can't do without me. If I did rush in, I'd only be in the way.

3. God will not perfect the world, he respects free will so he does not invtervene if he is not asked to do so.

I was referring to the Second Coming. I thought Catholics believed in that, no?

Demonslayer · Jun 30, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
- doesn't intervening in the world seek to undermine God's plan? I've seen plenty of Christians describe some hardship as being "God's will" by giving them some benefit or teaching them something that wasn't apparent until after they had been through it. Doesn't working to stop hardship seek to eliminate these sorts of experiences?

I like this one, this is one of the things that frustrates me about believers in an active, tinkering God. For me it normally goes something like this:

Holy Believer: "We are all here for a reason, we are part of God's plan."
Filthy Heathen: "What possible reason could a stillborn baby have, why are thousands of stillborn babies every year necessary for God's plan?"
Holy Believer: "God tests some parents faith with that burden."
Flithy Heathen: "So the precious lives of thousands of babies are snuffed out 20 seconds after birth just to test some parents?"
Holy Believer: "Um....shut up stupid, you're going to hell!"

Your question here takes this one step further. Stillborn babies not probably the best example, but any other ailment. Let's say spina bifida or down syndrome. Scientists are working hard to cure these terrible ailments. One day they may be able to prevent children from being born with these things...is that a good thing or bad because now these parents won't get the test God had intended for them?

Did Jonas Salk rob millions of parents from the test God had planned for them by giving their kids polio?

rusra02 · Jun 30, 2016

True Christianity is based on love; love for God and love for neighbor. I do not believe the Bible teaches any inherent merit in suffering. Nor does the Bible teach God causes suffering, IMO. Yes, God has promised to end all suffering in his due time. Meanwhile, God wants us to show loving concern for others, both by positive acts of kindness and by refraining from doing harm to them. Many of the acts of charity performed have little or no merit with God, IMO, because they are not done in harmony with God's will for Christians. (James 1:13, Revelation 21:4, Romans 13:8-10, 1 Timothy 2:3,4, Matthew 7:21-23)

Orbit · Jun 30, 2016

It depends on what Bible verses you pay attention to. "If you have done this to the least among you, you have done it to me" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" were always the basis for my understanding of Christian charity. Why? Because they appeal to my innate sense of justice and decency.

You can construct an argument from the Bible and make it say whatever you want, but in the end your story says more about you than God.

savagewind · Jun 30, 2016

rusra02 said:
True Christianity is based on love; love for God and love for neighbor. I do not believe the Bible teaches any inherent merit in suffering. Nor does the Bible teach God causes suffering, IMO. Yes, God has promised to end all suffering in his due time. Meanwhile, God wants us to show loving concern for others, both by positive acts of kindness and by refraining from doing harm to them. Many of the acts of charity performed have little or no merit with God, IMO, because they are not done in harmony with God's will for Christians. (James 1:13, Revelation 21:4, Romans 13:8-10, 1 Timothy 2:3,4, Matthew 7:21-23)

I think that to reach what is true a person must OBEY love. If that is true, then true Christianity is based on obedience.
Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them
John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command

Genesis 22:11-12

JesusBeliever · Jul 2, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I can't reconcile the idea of Christians engaging in charitable works with what I know of Christian beliefs. Nevertheless, I recognize that many Christians not only engage in charity, but consider it a pillar of their faith.

If that describes you, maybe you can answer a few questions:

- if death isn't final and is just the transition to something better, why work to save lives?

- if earthly suffering earns the sufferer reward in Heaven, wouldn't alleviating their suffering end up being worse for them in the long run?

- doesn't intervening in the world seek to undermine God's plan? I've seen plenty of Christians describe some hardship as being "God's will" by giving them some benefit or teaching them something that wasn't apparent until after they had been through it. Doesn't working to stop hardship seek to eliminate these sorts of experiences?

- if you think God (or Christ) is going to perfect the world and right all wrongs, what difference will your actions make? Isn't any evil or suffering you might alleviate now already set to be addressed by someone infinitely more capable than you?

I'm pretty active in volunteer work and charitable causes, but this is informed by my atheism: I don't expect any gods to swoop down and do all the things that I think need doing, so if they're going to happen, *I* need to make them happen. I don't understand the motivations for charity when that mindset doesn't apply, and I'd appreciate your help in achieving some sort of understanding.

Hi there,
From what I have read of the Christian faith from the Bible, Charity is at the very heart of the faith. In fact, if you read 1 Corinthians 8 in the King James version of the Bible, it uses the word Charity instead of Love. Here's just a few verses for example:

1 Corinthians 13:1-7 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things....
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The word translated as Charity in these verses is the Greek word AGAPE. Wikipedia gives this definition:

Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[1]) means "love: esp. charity; the love of God for man and of man for God."[2] Agape is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one's children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast.[3] Agape is used by Christians to express the unconditional love of God for his children.[4] This type of love was further explained by Thomas Aquinas as "to will the good of another."[5]

Note that it is the same Greek word translated in this verse:

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love (AGAPAO) one another: for love (AGAPE) is of God; and every one that loveth (AGAPAO) is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth (AGAPAO) not knoweth not God; for God is love (AGAPE).

Later in the same letter the Apostle John makes it crystal clear regarding the central place that Charity should have in the life of a professing Christian:

1 John 3:17-18 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love (AGAPE) of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love (AGAPAO) in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Hope this helps.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jul 2, 2016

JesusBeliever said:
Hope this helps.

Not really.

I gave the analogy of a fire before; if the fire department is already on the scene, it wouldn't be charitable for me to jump into the mix with my fire extinguisher and get in the way. Everything that I could do is already taken care of.

In the Christian context, isn't God already on the scene of any problem, and infinitely more capable than a team of firefighters? If so, then where's the motivation for a Christian to jump into the mix? If you think things need doing, why wouldn't you trust that God will make sure they happen?

IOW, what action could a Christian take that would have good effects that wouldn't happen without intervening?

JesusBeliever · Jul 2, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Not really.

I gave the analogy of a fire before; if the fire department is already on the scene, it wouldn't be charitable for me to jump into the mix with my fire extinguisher and get in the way. Everything that I could do is already taken care of.

In the Christian context, isn't God already on the scene of any problem, and infinitely more capable than a team of firefighters? If so, then where's the motivation for a Christian to jump into the mix? If you think things need doing, why wouldn't you trust that God will make sure they happen?

IOW, what action could a Christian take that would have good effects that wouldn't happen without intervening?

Took me a few reads to absorb what you were saying but I think I get it now.
And personally I would agree, that God is infinitely more capable than a team of firefighters. And if it was up to me, I probably wouldn't have hired me either.

Terrywoodenpic · Jul 2, 2016

There is not a points system of rewards for doing charitable works.
any more than sins are totted up and set aginst good works.
God's love is unconditional as is charity for it to be charity.

Love and charity are an integral part of Jesus teachings,
there is no special reward.
But sins of ommission infers that lack of charity is a sin.

whirlingmerc · Jul 4, 2016

Charity is the fruit, not the root. If you truly have saving faith and love God it will be evidenced by deeds of mercy and loving man.
The new birth is evidenced by faith working in love. Deeds do not 'save you' but they are the evidence you have 'saving faith'

Micah said 'what does the Lord require of you but to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God'
so the standard is not doing mercy but loving it

Windwalker · Jul 4, 2016

Orbit said:
You can construct an argument from the Bible and make it say whatever you want, but in the end your story says more about you than God.

"So much depends on our idea of God! Yet no idea of Him, however pure and perfect, is adequate to express Him as He really is. Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." ~Thomas Merton.

Windwalker · Jul 4, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
In the Christian context, isn't God already on the scene of any problem, and infinitely more capable than a team of firefighters? If so, then where's the motivation for a Christian to jump into the mix? If you think things need doing, why wouldn't you trust that God will make sure they happen?

Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good,
Yours are the hands, with which he blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet,
Yours are the eyes, you are his body.
Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
compassion on this world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

~Teresa of Avila (1515–1582)

9-10ths_Penguin · Jul 4, 2016

Windwalker said:
Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good,
Yours are the hands, with which he blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet,
Yours are the eyes, you are his body.
Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
compassion on this world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

~Teresa of Avila (1515–1582)

So... if humans don't cause God's will to happen, God's will doesn't happen?

Again: I don't see how this can be made to work with Christian beliefs.

It also raises issues for the Problem of Evil: apparent suffering and injustice often goes unaddressed by humans. If we really do need to address these, then God really is letting these things go unaddressed now.

Shiranui117 · Jul 4, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I can't reconcile the idea of Christians engaging in charitable works with what I know of Christian beliefs. Nevertheless, I recognize that many Christians not only engage in charity, but consider it a pillar of their faith.

If that describes you, maybe you can answer a few questions:

- if death isn't final and is just the transition to something better, why work to save lives?

Having more time in this life means more time to better prepare ourselves for the next life. It also means that that person has more time to make others' lives better.

- if earthly suffering earns the sufferer reward in Heaven, wouldn't alleviating their suffering end up being worse for them in the long run?

Earthly suffering borne with a Christ-like patience and faith will be rewarded, but some people can't handle just endless suffering their entire lives, so it's good to help and alleviate that and give them a reprieve.

- doesn't intervening in the world seek to undermine God's plan? I've seen plenty of Christians describe some hardship as being "God's will" by giving them some benefit or teaching them something that wasn't apparent until after they had been through it. Doesn't working to stop hardship seek to eliminate these sorts of experiences?

Intervening in the world to stop suffering gives others a taste of what it will be like in Paradise, when all suffering is no more. It also gives those people the opportunity to thank God for His mercy and rejoice.

- if you think God (or Christ) is going to perfect the world and right all wrongs, what difference will your actions make? Isn't any evil or suffering you might alleviate now already set to be addressed by someone infinitely more capable than you?

I wouldn't stop rendering whatever first aid and CPR I can for an injured person just because I know an ambulance with trained doctors is on its way. It's the same way with us and God--God might be able to do a whole lot more than I can, but if I am able to something to help, then I should--both because it's the right thing to do, and because that's what God expects of me as an imitator of Him.

JesusBeliever · Jul 4, 2016

9-10ths_Penguin said:
So... if humans don't cause God's will to happen, God's will doesn't happen?

Again: I don't see how this can be made to work with Christian beliefs.

It also raises issues for the Problem of Evil: apparent suffering and injustice often goes unaddressed by humans. If we really do need to address these, then God really is letting these things go unaddressed now.

This verse came to mind so thought I'd share it:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

metis · Jul 4, 2016

Whether one is theistically inclined or not, it's our world and we should deal with it. I would hope this is an area where theists and atheists could agree on.

I don't understand Christian charity

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