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With Or Without God

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I am a theist, I believe in a God. I believe he created the universe and so on. But I still don't believe that life has any inherent meaning. Why should there being a God all of a sudden give life meaning? I see this argument a lot, directed at Atheists, of how can life have any meaning without God, or some form of this argument. I am asking, why does God or Gods give life meaning? I'm not interested in afterlife (which I am personally ambivalent about) or such things. My belief is, God or no, life has no ultimate, inherent meaning or value. We all end up dead and dust, and there probably is no afterlife in my opinion (and even if there were, it still wouldn't give this life meaning).

So, how does God or Gods give life inherent meaning?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
dead is the gate to the afterlife. what do you expect from the temporary life such this world? in this wORLD you gradually turn to be old and old every second time, and you would be too old to enjoy black forest chocolate and magnum.
In life after death there is a paradise where you will live eternally at young age with full of happyness, food and kind that makes you joyful .
But why couldn't God have just given us that life now?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I would have said just the opposite. Life has as much meaning as one gives it, whether one is a theist or atheist. Striving to better oneself and one's community, these are principles that everyone can relate to and that is where one finds meaning, whether the goal is reached in this world or another.
 

Burl

Active Member
Order is the meaning. Even if life is 'merely' adding dimensions of entertainment such as eating & sleeping, there appears an order that provides comfort.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Could you elaborate on what you understand "meaning" to be in this context, @Rival ?
Whatever humans are supposed to do that will ultimately lead to some ultimate goal. Bees make honey, worms help the soil, trees give oxygen, humans...?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So, how does God or Gods give life inherent meaning?
To the best of my understanding, the idea is that people would need the existence and knowledge of God to have a certain measure of faith that existence will ultimately be fair for everyone, that there is some sort of overseer that may reassure us of the eventual success of his plan, or perhaps that will judge and reward or punish people fairly.

Perhaps the people who feel that way are troubled by the lack of certainty in our lives. Some of those seem to assume that everyone else is similarly troubled as well.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
It is God's authority. He provides for people a life after death with either in hell or paradise.

What kind of a sick God would put people in an eternal hell? And why create this life just to torture us further with sufferings and mishaps? What is the point of it?

Because He is a God.

'Might' does not make 'right'. Allah can call himself 'just' and demand his human slaves do so all he wants but if he insists on enacting the cruellest response to disobedience he knows is coming when he has literally every other, less cruel option at his disposal then we all know his claims of being 'just' are nothing but posturing.

How much power a being has matters far less than how they use it - to the benefit or detriment of others.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Whatever humans are supposed to do that will ultimately lead to some ultimate goal. Bees make honey, worms help the soil, trees give oxygen, humans...?

Humans make craft beer. I'm not sure whether that's our "purpose" any more than it is the "purpose" of the honey bee to make honey. How will making beer, or honey, ultimately lead to some ultimate goal?

If the honey bee went extinct and we had no more honey, life would go on after all. Some ultimate goal would not fail to occur due to the lack of honey in the universe. Besides, most people will tell you that the primary importance of bees is the role they play in pollination of plants, not the making of honey. If anything pollination of plant life is their purpose...but again, I don't think you can rightly identify any one thing as the "purpose" of that thing. Dogs make me smile, they also fertilize the lawn, which is their "purpose?"
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Whatever humans are supposed to do that will ultimately lead to some ultimate goal. Bees make honey, worms help the soil, trees give oxygen, humans...?

@Quintessence this isn't a great definition but meaning is so abstract to me it's hard if not impossible to pin down.

It is, isn't it? I'm glad you gave some examples, because that lofty phrase "ultimate goal" tends to generate 404 errors in this one's brain. In the sense of the examples you gave, to me those are not examples of meaning, but of character/nature/essence/spirit. A tree doesn't produce oxygen because that is it's "purpose" or "meaning," it produces oxygen because it must as per its nature. Or at least that's how I tend to look at it. I see purpose and meaning coming into play with respect to the stories that we tell about things. "Trees give oxygen" is an example of such storytelling - that is the story we tell ourselves about what trees are for (and a pretty anthropocentric one, at that! To the tree, oxygen is a waste product!). Humans strike me as the great storytellers. That characterizes our nature far more than supposed reason and rationality. Humans tell stories about how things are that are not how things are. Other animals probably do it too, but we can't communicate with them well enough to know their stories. :D
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
"Trees give oxygen" is an example of such storytelling - that is the story we tell ourselves about what trees are for (and a pretty anthropocentric one, at that! To the tree, oxygen is a waste product!).

Right, I agree with this idea, oxygen is only one thing trees do. They provide shade, homes for animals, prevent erosion, etc, etc. Oxygen is not the single "purpose" of the tree.
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
Further yet- how could a god give life its meaning when people have not believed in this god in every place and time? Can the meaning for life as some theists believe it be many? If that is so, atheism is just as meaningful as theism by their admission.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
what we can do then?

Live our lives as best we can, be as happy as we can be and spread that joy to others, help to leave the world a better place than it was when we entered it, think, act & speak in such a way that people will remember you with a smile rather than a frown. Be good for the sake of being good, not because some higher power expects it of you, or because they will reward you for it or punish you for contrarianism.

To quote Marcus Aurelius: "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

In fact I think I'll put that in my signature right now.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I am a theist, I believe in a God. I believe he created the universe and so on. But I still don't believe that life has any inherent meaning. Why should there being a God all of a sudden give life meaning? I see this argument a lot, directed at Atheists, of how can life have any meaning without God, or some form of this argument. I am asking, why does God or Gods give life meaning? I'm not interested in afterlife (which I am personally ambivalent about) or such things. My belief is, God or no, life has no ultimate, inherent meaning or value. We all end up dead and dust, and there probably is no afterlife in my opinion (and even if there were, it still wouldn't give this life meaning).

So, how does God or Gods give life inherent meaning?

God is life. We make meaning and value in our lives and Within those values lets you see god's or life's plan. You are a part of god; so, he isnt an entity that supposed to define purpose (as per your question) but life itself that the only way you can find god's purpose is through you.

If god is just an entity, I dont see how his nature automatically makes him the "creator of the universe" or great. I likened to some pagans who see gods as just as anyone else with their own motives.

God gives meaning in life through you. Thats how you and people see god in you. As for the gods, I can only assume what pagans believe. With spirits our loved ones, blood, and history they give us value because our identity and who we are comes from a line of family and humanity. To know the spirits (or gods?) is to know yourself. To know yourself is to know god.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
I am a theist, I believe in a God. I believe he created the universe and so on. But I still don't believe that life has any inherent meaning. Why should there being a God all of a sudden give life meaning? I see this argument a lot, directed at Atheists, of how can life have any meaning without God, or some form of this argument. I am asking, why does God or Gods give life meaning? I'm not interested in afterlife (which I am personally ambivalent about) or such things. My belief is, God or no, life has no ultimate, inherent meaning or value. We all end up dead and dust, and there probably is no afterlife in my opinion (and even if there were, it still wouldn't give this life meaning).

So, how does God or Gods give life inherent meaning?

Do you believe in any other powerful 'Otherworldly' or 'supernatural' beings?
 
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