Millennials, Please Just Shut Up

Saint Frankenstein · Jun 26, 2016

Laika said:
I'd rather debate a neo-nazi who can say publicly they are a racist, than someone who trolls racist comments and then cowardly calls it "free speech". The weakness and deception are the problem because it shows how irrational the basis of those views are and that they are not capable or willing to discuss them. if someone were to try to defend far right views on the basis of being informed and making clear why they hold such views, so long as it is a minority and do not simply abuse everyone else, that is reasonable (if discomforting). It's better when you have people who make clear where they stand, grasp that others do not necessarily have to agree with them and as a community we can learn to live with that.

The far right is becoming a powerful force in the world. It would be far better for everyone if we knew why rather than engage in two faced debates over how wrong it is that fascists and racists are being denied free speech by political correctness when they would deny it to others. If someone is racist and doesn't have the courage to say so, that tells you a lot about how poorly they value their own opinion and themselves. Political correctness has failed as a mechanism for dealing with it. Now We need to discuss racism directly, stop pretending it isn't there rather than give comfort to the irrationality of those who want to be racist and not accept responsibility for the problems it causes. I sincerely doubt that many of the conservatives and nationalists on RF are really of the calibre to actually pose a physical threat to other people beyond having deeply offensive views. The problem is whether they may well enable people who would and we have to make them face up to that possibility.

I have edited this post several times trying to find a decent answer but really I think having a few members like that on RF is the best defence against it affecting more people on the forums. When we understand what these things really mean in practice we may give people the pause for thought on both sides of the debate they really need.

Oh, so you're just saying that you wish those who already hold those views simply become open and honest about it? If so, I completely agree. I find the dancing around it to be two-faced, cowardly and, at least, a sign of cognitive dissonance. I think a lot of them do know that those views are simply unacceptable, that they're not based on reason and logic and are purely emotive. They're not the "true believers" like the ones who openly and blatantly call for race war and mass killing. Those are the ones who have truly owned their beliefs and their ramifications.

Laika · Jun 27, 2016

Saint Frankenstein said:
Oh, so you're just saying that you wish those who already hold those views simply become open and honest about it? If so, I completely agree. I find the dancing around it to be two-faced, cowardly and, at least, a sign of cognitive dissonance. I think a lot of them do know that those views are simply unacceptable, that they're not based on reason and logic and are purely emotive. They're not the "true believers" like the ones who openly and blatantly call for race war and mass killing. Those are the ones who have truly owned their beliefs and their ramifications.

I can accept the true believers as such, but the two-faced hypocrites are the ones that really give them credibility, power and influence because of their numbers. You have to separate them and the best way of doing that is making them realise exactly what they are supporting. One true believer is worth ten hypocrites in a debate and their bluntness can turn everyone else's stomach in a way very few things can. It's much more effective as a reality check to have them on board and that is what is needed to change the mood and people's perceptions.

Tomorrows_Child · Jun 28, 2016

Rival said:
So after the UK voted to leave the EU, the Millennials who overwhelmingly voted 'Remain' are getting their knickers in a twist because they didn't get their way. They started a petition for a Second Referendum, because, hey, if you don't get what you want then just keep on pushing until you do. These people clearly don't know what democracy is. The majority wins, and the majority voted out.

Seriously, you lost. Get over it. Lose with dignity, at least.

(Sorry, this isn't aimed at anyone on RF, I'm just annoyed by their juvenile whining).

First off, I'm not sure you know what a millennial is.

Secondly, it's not just those who voted remain but also many leave voters, I know a tonne who voted in protest or who voted in fear or immigration or who voted in opposition to Cameron who now regret it and would vote differently. Many of these have also been highlighted in the media.

As a millennial I'm fine with the vote as long as we have an exit strategy...the reality is, we don't. Boris just admitted that we may have "some" control over immigration, already backtracking on his promises, Farage already said it was a "mistake" to say the NHS would receive hundreds of millions of pounds in extra funding. All I see is lies left, right and center.

There is no plan and there is no one willing to execute article 50 because of that.

Rival · Jun 28, 2016

Tomorrows_Child said:
First off, I'm not sure you know what a millennial is.

What makes you think so?

Rival · Jun 28, 2016

A millennial is someone who was born from around the 80s to 2000. At least, that's how I've always known it. Generation Y.

Demonslayer · Jun 28, 2016

Rival said:
A millennial is someone who was born from around the 80s to 2000. At least, that's how I've always known it. Generation Y.

I think it's post 2000 birth right?

Like born in the new millennium. Gen Y is one before. I guess I'm Gen X, born in 1971. Crap, I'm old.

Rival · Jun 28, 2016

Demonslayer said:
I think it's post 2000 birth right?

Like born in the new millennium. Gen Y is one before. I guess I'm Gen X, born in 1971. Crap, I'm old.

No, it stops at 2000. Starts in the early 80s and stops in 2000. Then begins Gen Z. Some people do it different though, there's no official consensus on this.

Rival · Jun 28, 2016

Millennials (also known as the Millennial Generation[1] or Generation Y, abbreviated to Gen Y) are the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates for when the generation starts and ends; most researchers and commentators use birth years ranging from the early 1980s to around 2000.

Wiki.

Demonslayer · Jun 28, 2016

Rival said:
Millennials (also known as the Millennial Generation[1] or Generation Y, abbreviated to Gen Y) are the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates for when the generation starts and ends; most researchers and commentators use birth years ranging from the early 1980s to around 2000.

Wiki.

Hmmm, odd, I didn't think we would be calling someone as old as 36 a millennial but what do I know.

And when did the generation namers get so damn lazy? We had the Greatest Generation, Baby Boomers...then they went to Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Z. Can't we get some fun names going again? I want to be Generation Spastic Monkey or something interesting.

beenherebeforeagain · Jun 28, 2016

Demonslayer said:
Hmmm, odd, I didn't think we would be calling someone as old as 36 a millennial but what do I know.

And when did the generation namers get so damn lazy? We had the Greatest Generation, Baby Boomers...then they went to Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Z. Can't we get some fun names going again? I want to be Generation Spastic Monkey or something interesting.

Lol!

Become a sociologist and study generational sorting in the population; then you can start coming up with crazy names.

As I recall, Gen X originally was the Roman numeral X, as in 10, the tenth generation since the founding of the nation. It then got converted to the letter X, and so Y and Z naturally followed...stupid, yes, but between sociologists and other social scientists, and the popular media looking for lots of memes to use, we got what we got...there's no central authority to set generation names...

MysticSang'ha · Jun 28, 2016

Laika said:
I can accept the true believers as such, but the two-faced hypocrites are the ones that really give them credibility, power and influence because of their numbers. You have to separate them and the best way of doing that is making them realise exactly what they are supporting. One true believer is worth ten hypocrites in a debate and their bluntness can turn everyone else's stomach in a way very few things can. It's much more effective as a reality check to have them on board and that is what is needed to change the mood and people's perceptions.

Not always. When we've had members who not only post rape can be good for women, but members who have a child bride and advocate for child brides because girls are conditioned better...the two-faced hypocrites didn't change much. In fact, I've seen MORE rape apologia as a result.

Laika · Jun 28, 2016

MysticSang'ha said:
Not always. When we've had members who not only post rape can be good for women, but members who have a child bride and advocate for child brides because girls are conditioned better...the two-faced hypocrites didn't change much. In fact, I've seen MORE rape apologia as a result.

That's alarming honestly. I don't think there is anything I can adequately say to that. It's difficult to know how to change opinions when you feel you need to but in a sense I guess people already have to be a bit receptive to that change in the first place. In terms of discussion a straight forward true believer is more constructive but obviously people don't connect to it as much as I would hope.

MysticSang'ha · Jun 28, 2016

Laika said:
That's alarming honestly. I don't think there is anything I can adequately say to that. It's difficult to know how to change opinions when you feel you need to but in a sense I guess people already have to be a bit receptive to that change in the first place. In terms of discussion a straight forward true believer is more constructive but obviously people don't connect to it as much as I would hope.

It explains numbers increasing for white supremacist groups in correlation to popularity for Trump's brand of commentary. They now feel they have permission to say what they REALLY feel. To minority groups, that's more than a bit concerning.

Laika · Jun 28, 2016

MysticSang'ha said:
It explains numbers increasing for white supremacist groups in correlation to popularity for Trump's brand of commentary. They now feel they have permission to say what they REALLY feel. To minority groups, that's more than a bit concerning.

I am not sure if getting people to self censor is necessarily the most effective path to get them to change their views, although I appreciate that letting it fester out in the open is far from desirable. Getting them to conform to standards of civility or "political correctness" does not eliminate the problem but only hides it. As much as I would prefer people to be more open about their prejudices, This does assume however that openness to discussion is the same as a willingness to change their views. There are clearly risks with that.

MysticSang'ha · Jun 28, 2016

Laika said:
I am not sure if getting people to self censor is necessarily the most effective path to get them to change their views, although I appreciate that letting it fester out in the open is far from desirable. Getting them to conform to standards of civility or "political correctness" does not eliminate the problem but only hides it. As much as I would prefer people to be more open about their prejudices, This does assume however that openness to discussion is the same as a willingness to change their views. There are clearly risks with that.

If we are thinking long term, I'm still hoping beyond hope. It's riskier now than before, and I don't know if it's the darkness right before dawn metaphor I'm seeing, but Alt-Right movements coupled with numbers, a political system that protects their actions, and mass-assault weapons has me in a state of constant awareness wherever I go now.

That used to be only when I was around groups of people talking about how they'd evolved personally because they wouldn't kill homosexuals...just beat them up a bit.

Now it's whenever I wake up. The Pulse massacre didn't just happen in a vacuum. I think it's the result of escalation in bigoted hate speech and tolerance for violence against minorities.

columbus · Jun 28, 2016

Rival said:
No, it stops at 2000. Starts in the early 80s and stops in 2000. Then begins Gen Z. Some people do it different though, there's no official consensus on this.

I've always vaguely defined the Millenials as "the people who don't really remember the pre-Information Age world".
Back in the olden days, the media was dominated by a handful of giant print and broadcast companies. A long distance telephone call was a big splurge. Most people communicated by writing things down indelibly on paper.
So I'm inclined to peg it around 1990 or so. It's just a different world now, and young people don't remember life before Facebook.
Tom

Laika · Jun 28, 2016

MysticSang'ha said:
If we are thinking long term, I'm still hoping beyond hope. It's riskier now than before, and I don't know if it's the darkness right before dawn metaphor I'm seeing, but Alt-Right movements coupled with numbers, a political system that protects their actions, and mass-assault weapons has me in a state of constant awareness wherever I go now.

That used to be only when I was around groups of people talking about how they'd evolved personally because they wouldn't kill homosexuals...just beat them up a bit.

Now it's whenever I wake up. The Pulse massacre didn't just happen in a vacuum. I think it's the result of escalation in bigoted hate speech and tolerance for violence against minorities.

I don't share quite the same fears (given gun controls in the UK) but since I was on revleft (for leftists) and learned that the forum had to protect itself against groups of fascists attempting to harvest people's personal deatils in order to attack them, I have been very vigilant in how much I say online. I can be emotionally open but I avoid specifics. There is a specific Website I have in mind that publishes leftists personal details and whom people use to issue death threats. Thankfully it's rare they follow it up but it's an extra level of risk that I manage. The area I live in is a hotspot for the far right but isn't the worst. (I think France is supposed to be worse for far right-far left confrontations). So far-nothing has happened and may it stay that way.

Things are definitely worse now in the UK with reports of hate crimes, abuse and the murder of Joe Cox in the referendum when all this came to the surface. The fact it has been let out in the open has not helped and it has made it acceptable. My parents basically had a row with a "leave" leafleter in the street (when I wasn't there). When we met up and told me, I got them back to the car using a different route to avoid them and after a long silent car journey back home I eventually told them of the risks. They weren't happy but we're still grateful for me telling them. We had Chinese takeaway to try and beat the mood that evening as it was a way just to cheer us up. This was before Joe Cox was murdered and that sort of brought it home that I wasn't exaggerating as the problem was mentioned in the papers.

Ultimatum · Jun 28, 2016

Debater Slayer said:
With certain constraints, yes, definitely.

The epitome of edge and saltiness.

beenherebeforeagain · Jun 28, 2016

I'm sure there's reams written about this in sociology, history and the social sciences, as well as business/marketing. A lot seems to depend on whether or not the particular source is considering actual biological generations, or changes in society. Demographically, the Baby Boom generation went from the end of WWII to the early 1960s (some place it as ending in 1964, but some earlier and others later)--about 22 years, which is a typical modern generation.

The following generation--Gen X--you would think would have been from the early 1960s to the middle/late 1980s or so--but in many sources, the cutoff is 1980, or even before--making it not a biological generation at all. But the 1980s was when we had what was called at the time the Echo or Baby Boomlet, an increase in the birth rate higher than the 1960s/70s, but lower than during the baby boom.

The next generation after that--Gen Y, the Millennials--would have been born mid/late 1980s to mid/late 2000s--or the middle 1970s to 1990-95 or so, in some sources that I've seen. So it begins to get confusing, because the different sources are using different models but the same terms.

Debater Slayer · Jun 28, 2016

Ultimatum said:
The epitome of edge and saltiness.

Not sure what you're getting at. Would you mind elaborating?

Millennials, Please Just Shut Up

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