Abrahamic Faiths: Love and the Law

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

Love God and Love each other, these are the two great commandments. In them we can see all of the ten commandments, and in the Sermon on the Mount takes the relationship between the Law and Love to radical extremes.

What do you think? Which is more important and what is going on when the two seem to conflict? Which one trumps the other? Why?

What is our relationship with the Law and has this changed over time? What do we mean when we say God is Love?

Use of scripture from the various Abrahamic Faiths is encouraged as you answer these questions.

peace,
lunamoth

FerventGodSeeker · May 30, 2006

lunamoth said:
lunamoth said:

Love God and Love each other, these are the two great commandments. In them we can see all of the ten commandments, and in the Sermon on the Mount takes the relationship between the Law and Love to radical extremes.

What do you think? Which is more important and what is going on when the two seem to conflict? Which one trumps the other? Why?

Click to expand...

When the two "seem" to conflict, I don't believe they really do. The essence of the Law is Love; as you already pointed out, the Law can be summed up in the two commandments of Love.

What is our relationship with the Law and has this changed over time?

Click to expand...

When Christ died and rose again, He abolished the Mosaic ceremonial law that the nation of Israel was under in the Old Testament (Scriptures upon request). However, because the Church is the spiritual Israel, we are still under the moral law of the Old Testament (seen in the fact that many of them are reiterated in the New Testament, sometimes even quoted from the Old).

What do we mean when we say God is Love?

Click to expand...

God is Love in the sense that Love is an aspect of God. Just as God is eternal, holy, Spirit, etc, God is Love.

FerventGodSeeker

Aqualung · May 30, 2006

lunamoth said:
Love God and Love each other, these are the two great commandments. In them we can see all of the ten commandments, and in the Sermon on the Mount takes the relationship between the Law and Love to radical extremes.

What do you think? Which is more important and what is going on when the two seem to conflict? Which one trumps the other? Why?

What is our relationship with the Law and has this changed over time? What do we mean when we say God is Love?

Use of scripture from the various Abrahamic Faiths is encouraged as you answer these questions.

peace,
lunamoth

Loving each other is the most important. This is how to live the law. We show our love towards God by loving each other. If we love each other, we will be following the laws. If we love our parents, we will honour them. If we love our children, we will bring them up in the faith. If we love strangers, we will be more willing to preach the gospel to them. It is through loving each other that we fulfill the law and show our love to god.

jewscout · May 30, 2006

lunamoth said:
Love God and Love each other, these are the two great commandments. In them we can see all of the ten commandments, and in the Sermon on the Mount takes the relationship between the Law and Love to radical extremes.

What do you think? Which is more important and what is going on when the two seem to conflict? Which one trumps the other? Why?

What is our relationship with the Law and has this changed over time? What do we mean when we say God is Love?

Use of scripture from the various Abrahamic Faiths is encouraged as you answer these questions.

peace,
lunamoth

well i think this is directed more at christianity than any other of the Abrahamic faiths...

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

jewscout said:
well i think this is directed more at christianity than any other of the Abrahamic faiths...

This is an interesting point Jewscout. Why? The love commandments are part of Judaism before they are part of Christianity and so also part of the foundation for all Abrahamic religions.

lunamoth

jewscout · May 30, 2006

lunamoth said:
This is an interesting point Jewscout. Why? The love commandments are part of Judaism before they are part of Christianity and so also part of the foundation for all Abrahamic religions.

lunamoth

yes to love thy neighbor and the Shema of which you speak of are part of Judaism, in fact central parts...

but the concept of "G-d is Love" is not to be found anywhere in the Torah or Tanach, that is something that christianity created.

tho G-d does love and we are to love Him in Judaism, i think a word that might better describe the jewish perspective of HaShem is "Just"...tho i could be wrong on that but that's just the way i see Him through what i've learned studying Judaism.

for example, when Abraham pleaded w/ HaShem to spare Sodom and Gemorah he appealed to His sense of Justice, not Love.

michel · May 30, 2006

I must admit that I see the "love thy neighbour" as being the central focus; and, love thy neighbour (to my mind) means that you are automatically loving God.

To my mind, the two are the same. I agree though that I see love as being the main message.

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

jewscout said:
yes to love thy neighbor and the Shema of which you speak of are part of Judaism, in fact central parts...

but the concept of "G-d is Love" is not to be found anywhere in the Torah or Tanach, that is something that christianity created.

tho G-d does love and we are to love Him in Judaism, i think a word that might better describe the jewish perspective of HaShem is "Just"...tho i could be wrong on that but that's just the way i see Him through what i've learned studying Judaism.

for example, when Abraham pleaded w/ HaShem to spare Sodom and Gemorah he appealed to His sense of Justice, not Love.

God IS perfectly just and perfectly love, but we fall short in both. Certainly the law is given to help us be just (don't take what does not belong to you, give God and others their due), which is when you think about it a manifestation of love.

2c,
lunamoth

jewscout · May 30, 2006

lunamoth said:
God IS perfectly just and perfectly love, but we fall short in both. Certainly the law is given to help us be just (don't take what does not belong to you, give God and others their due), which is when you think about it a manifestation of love.

2c,
lunamoth

i don't have to love someone to deal justly w/ them...hell i don't even have to like them! but i can still be fair and just in my actions. I don't think that's necessarily love, i'm not doing it out of an act of love, i'm doing it because it's the right thing to do.

and you talk about the law...where is the love in not eating cheeseburgers? How is that love? Respect i can see, but love?:sarcastic

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

FerventGodSeeker said:
When Christ died and rose again, He abolished the Mosaic ceremonial law that the nation of Israel was under in the Old Testament (Scriptures upon request). However, because the Church is the spiritual Israel, we are still under the moral law of the Old Testament (seen in the fact that many of them are reiterated in the New Testament, sometimes even quoted from the Old).

Click to expand...

Interesting FGS, I've never heard it explained quite this way before. So you think there were God-given laws that Christ abrogated? My take on it is that the law remained but our relationship with the law changed in that we were reminded and invited to follow the law with love as our guide. So if there is a situation where love and the law seem to conflict (because we are imperfect) then the safer bet is love/compassion/mercy.

2c,
lunamoth

sojourner · May 30, 2006

I have to agree with Jewscout on this. There appears to be a large disconnect between Jewish thought and Christian thought here. While loving God and showing hospitality to neighbor are central to Jewish OT thought, remember that Jews in the OT only had to show hospitality to neighbor, which, in their eyes was defined with a very narrow view. God was a provincial God -- greater than all the other Gods, but God of Israel. Neighbors were fellow Jews -- not even Samaritans were considered to be neighbors, because they worshiped in the wrong place, among other things.

It isn't until the advent of Christian understanding that we encounter a broader world view of both God and neighbor, as found in Luke 10 -- the "Good Samaritan." While most Jews that I know (and that number is pitifully small) are reformed, and take a broader view, I believe, than many other Jews.

Your question is fine from a Christian POV, but I think many Jews might understandably have a much different take on the matter.

Any Jews here care to comment? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

jewscout said:
i don't have to love someone to deal justly w/ them...hell i don't even have to like them! but i can still be fair and just in my actions. I don't think that's necessarily love, i'm not doing it out of an act of love, i'm doing it because it's the right thing to do.

Good point! I guess I would say that dealing justly with someone is love, but obviously that's heavily influenced by my Christian bias. I actually think that justice and love should look the same, except that life is typcially more complicated than that.

and you talk about the law...where is the love in not eating cheeseburgers? How is that love? Respect i can see, but love?:sarcastic

Well, I probably could never answer that question adequately from where I come from. I do think that there multiple levels of significance to dietary laws and marital laws, etc., a mundane level being that many of these laws had some practical outcomes that offered better health and harmonious relationships to people and also these laws elevated daily life to holiness, outer actions creating the pattern for spiritual reality.

2 c,
lunamoth

jewscout · May 30, 2006

sojourner said:
I have to agree with Jewscout on this. There appears to be a large disconnect between Jewish thought and Christian thought here. While loving God and showing hospitality to neighbor are central to Jewish OT thought, remember that Jews in the OT only had to show hospitality to neighbor, which, in their eyes was defined with a very narrow view. God was a provincial God -- greater than all the other Gods, but God of Israel. Neighbors were fellow Jews -- not even Samaritans were considered to be neighbors, because they worshiped in the wrong place, among other things.

It isn't until the advent of Christian understanding that we encounter a broader world view of both God and neighbor, as found in Luke 10 -- the "Good Samaritan." While most Jews that I know (and that number is pitifully small) are reformed, and take a broader view, I believe, than many other Jews.

Your question is fine from a Christian POV, but I think many Jews might understandably have a much different take on the matter.

Any Jews here care to comment? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

close...i think the concept of respect is what we are dealing w/ because even Judaism, in the Torah, teaches not to harm or do wrong to a non-jew, a stranger living in the land of Israel, "For you were strangers in the land of Egypt"...so even in the Torah we already find the groundwork for a more universal concept of respect, not just between jew and jew.
even Rabbi Hillel told a non-jew in the famous "standing on one foot" story in the Talmud that "that which is evil to you do not do to your neighbor, that is the whole of the Torah" (or something to that effect) and that was many many years before the character of Jesus ever came into the picture.

you don't have to love, or even like, a person (or people in general) to show that level of respect and justice.

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

sojourner said:
I have to agree with Jewscout on this. There appears to be a large disconnect between Jewish thought and Christian thought here. While loving God and showing hospitality to neighbor are central to Jewish OT thought, remember that Jews in the OT only had to show hospitality to neighbor, which, in their eyes was defined with a very narrow view. God was a provincial God -- greater than all the other Gods, but God of Israel. Neighbors were fellow Jews -- not even Samaritans were considered to be neighbors, because they worshiped in the wrong place, among other things.

It isn't until the advent of Christian understanding that we encounter a broader world view of both God and neighbor, as found in Luke 10 -- the "Good Samaritan." While most Jews that I know (and that number is pitifully small) are reformed, and take a broader view, I believe, than many other Jews.

Your question is fine from a Christian POV, but I think many Jews might understandably have a much different take on the matter.

Any Jews here care to comment? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

I'm meaning no disrespect by this thread. I am here to learn and the conversation with Jewscout so far has been very helpful. But, if this is too Christian biased I guess perhaps the thread should be closed.

2c,
lunamoth

lunamoth · May 30, 2006

jewscout said:
i don't have to love someone to deal justly w/ them...hell i don't even have to like them!

I also meant to say that I'm not thinking of love as a feeling or an emotion. In fact perhaps because I use the word Love broadly to mean "right/compassionatte action" it is hard to connect with in the context of this conversation. Oh well.

Thanks to all, I appreciate your comments.

lunamoth

Mister_T · May 30, 2006

michel said:
I must admit that I see the "love thy neighbour" as being the central focus; and, love thy neighbour (to my mind) means that you are automatically loving God.

To my mind, the two are the same. I agree though that I see love as being the main message.

I share Michel's view. I don't believe you can do one without the other. There was a passage in the NT that went along these same lines. It was something like "How can you say you love me (God) when you don't love your neighbor. For you have seen you neighbor but you have not seen me". I know that's not word for word, but it was something very similar to that. I wish I had that passage.

evearael · May 30, 2006

But, if this is too Christian biased I guess perhaps the thread should be closed.

Don't give up so easily. You've already shown you are willing to open the thread up to a variety of interpretations, and discourse between various faiths in healthy. Why stop now?

sojourner · May 30, 2006

I think, sometimes, many Xians give lip service to the Jews being our forebears, while, at the same time, many of us see Xy as an "improvement" on Judaism. (Luna: I'm not saying that you do that, or are doing it in this thread). We forget that it's the foundation that makes a building strong.

I think it might be good for some of our Jewish friends to talk to us about their particular viewpoint of loving God and neighbor, and how the two mesh for them.

Great thread, BTW...can we get some other voices here?

evearael · May 30, 2006

From the Stone Edition Tanach...
Leviticus 19:18 "You shall not take revenge and you shall not bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your fellow as yourself--I am HASHEM."
Footnote: R' Akiva said that this is the fundamental rule of the Torah (Rashi; Sifra). Hillel paraphrased: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others" (Shabbos 31a). We must wish upon others the same degree of success and prosperity we wish upon ourselves and we must treat others with the utmost respect and consideration (Rambam).

Leviticus 19:34 "The proselyte who dwells with you shall be like a native among you, an you shall love him like yourself, for you were alines in the land of Egypt--I am HASHEM, your God."

evearael · May 30, 2006

Which is more important and what is going on when the two seem to conflict? Which one trumps the other? Why?

Loving God is more important because justice and compassion for your neighbor follows from it. Remember the Shema (Jewscout, did you ever get an answer to whether or not it is appropriate for a non-Jew to recite it?).

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