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“If you know what life is worth you will look for yours on earth."

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I understand and agree with this idea as a religious person.

I think it's suggesting something not all that dissimilar from John Lennon's famous "imagine" song.

It might have surprised both of them to know that a German-Polish mystical poet belonging to the Catholic Faith (indeed he was a bit of a Catholic zealot to be honest), said substantially the same thing in the 17th century:


"...No thought for the hereafter
have the wise,
for on this very earth
they live in paradise.

All heaven's glory is within
and so is hell's fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

Don't think that some tommorrow
you'll see God's Light.
You see it now
or err in darkest night.

No wonder you despise
the mob's insanity.
All that it demonstrates
is inhumanity.

He whose treasure house is God,
his earth is paradise.
Why then call those
who make this earth a hell
the worldly wise?..."

Angelus Silesius (1624 - 1677), Catholic mystic and poet


I encountered the sentiment expressed by the Marley quote in the OP many years ago from reading "The Cherubinic Wanderer" by Silesius, a series of mystical poems written as epigrams...

He pipped Bob Marley to the post by a few centuries ;)
And you see no contradiction between this attitude and Christian faith? The Gospels describe Jesus rebuking people for being reluctant to rely on God for their physical needs, calling them "ye of little faith".

Overall, "Get Up, Stand Up" strikes me as Marley's message to the people who took the Beatitudes to heart too much.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
And you see no contradiction between this attitude and Christian faith? The Gospels describe Jesus rebuking people for being reluctant to rely on God for their physical needs, calling them "ye of little faith".

Overall, "Get Up, Stand Up" strikes me as Marley's message to the people who took the Beatitudes to heart too much.

I see no more contradiction than Silesius did. He is condemning a very specific understanding of God as a fairytale which the powers that be use to make this life a hell. He calls this God a fairytale - but he claims that the wise have found heaven and a different God within them in this life.

Both of us were/are Catholics, both of us agree(d) with the sentiment - albeit Silesius explains it more beautifully than I could ever hope too.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I see no more contradiction than Silesius did. He is condemning a very specific understanding of God as a fairytale which the powers that be use to make this life a hell. He calls this God a fairytale - but he claims that the wise have found heaven and a different God within them in this life.

Both of us were/are Catholics, both of us agree(d) with the sentiment - albeit Silesius explains it more beautifully than I could ever hope too.
I was speaking more to the ideas expressed in the Bob Marley song. It was you who said the poem expressed the same idea, but the reply you just gave doesn't really address what "Get Up, Stand Up" is saying.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I was speaking more to the ideas expressed in the Bob Marley song. It was you who said the poem expressed the same idea, but the reply you just gave doesn't really address what "Get Up, Stand Up" is saying.

How not? Silesius is condemning as a fairy tale the same God, religious beliefs used to excuse injustice in this life and afterlife notions used to direct people's attention away from improving human lives in the here and now as Marley.


Bob Marley

Most people think,
Great God will come from the skies,
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights​

Angels Silesius

No thought for the hereafter
have the wise,
for on this very earth
they live in paradise.

All heaven's glory is within
and so is hell's fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

Don't think that some tommorrow
you'll see God's Light.
You see it now
or err in darkest night.

No wonder you despise
the mob's insanity.
All that it demonstrates
is inhumanity.

He whose treasure house is God,
his earth is paradise.
Why then call those
who make this earth a hell
the worldly wise?​

I see no substantive difference in meaning.

Angelus the Catholic mystic and Bob the reggae artist are singing from the same hymn sheet on this so far as I can see.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How not? Silesius is condemning as a fairy tale the same God, religious beliefs used to excuse injustice in this life and afterlife notions used to direct people's attention away from improving human lives in the here and now as Marley.


Bob Marley

Most people think,
Great God will come from the skies,
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights​

Angels Silesius

No thought for the hereafter
have the wise,
for on this very earth
they live in paradise.

All heaven's glory is within
and so is hell's fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

Don't think that some tommorrow
you'll see God's Light.
You see it now
or err in darkest night.

No wonder you despise
the mob's insanity.
All that it demonstrates
is inhumanity.

He whose treasure house is God,
his earth is paradise.
Why then call those
who make this earth a hell
the worldly wise?​

I see no substantive difference in meaning.

Angelus the Catholic mystic and Bob the reggae artist are singing from the same hymn sheet on this so far as I can see.
Bob Marley is arguing against the Beatitudes and the Psalms ("The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want."). Do you really think that this is "singing from the same hymn sheet" as a devout Catholic mystic?

Marley's message is heretical to mainstream Christianity. This isn't a problem for him, since he wasn't a Christian... but it is a problem when you try to shoehorn it into a Christian worldview.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Bob Marley is arguing against the Beatitudes and the Psalms ("The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want."). Do you really think that this is "singing from the same hymn sheet" as a devout Catholic mystic?

Marley's message is heretical to mainstream Christianity. This isn't a problem for him, since he wasn't a Christian... but it is a problem when you try to shoehorn it into a Christian worldview.

Does Silesius not to tell people to look away from ideas of a judging, saviour god and afterlife promises to focus on our own decisions in the here and now that can make this world either a heaven or hell?

Does Silesius not say don't wait for some light of God tomorrow, see things as they are now - find that Light in the here and now. Make this world heaven and resist the religious preachers of the "fairy tale God" who are making it hell?

They are both telling people to accept responsibility for the welfare of humanity in this life, not rely on some conception of a God whose going to do it for you but won't, while in truth the "mob" or majority of ordinary folk suffer inhumanity. Angelus says that heaven and hell aren't destinations God sends you in an afterlife but potential realities in the minds of people right here on earth - and depending which state of mind people choose, we can make of this life a heaven or a hell.

Like Marley speaking of the erring "majority" who are led by religious preachers into believing in the great God in the sky, Silesius speaks of the "insanity of the mob" who are subjected to inhumanity by the so-called "wise" religious preachers following the fairy tale God of wrath.

I'm sorry but I see a very similar message in both.

If you don't, please tell me what you think based upon your reading that Silesius is saying?

Note the context: Silesius wrote this in the aftermath the Thirty Years War, as he reflected on the enormity of what had just happened and was trying to make sense of this colossal tragedy that had nearly destroyed Europe. That might help you understand what he's condemning.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
It should also be noted that Bob Marley was a devout Rastafarian. His religion was central to his art.

Also he converted to Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity before his death:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Marley#Religion


Bob Marley was a member for some years of the Rastafari movement, whose culture was a key element in the development of reggae. Bob Marley became an ardent proponent of Rastafari, taking their music out of the socially deprived areas of Jamaica and onto the international music scene. He once gave the following response, which was typical, to a question put to him during a recorded interview:

Interviewer: "Can you tell the people what it means being a Rastafarian?"
Marley: "I would say to the people, Be still, and know that His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia is the Almighty. Now, the Bible seh so, Babylon newspaper seh so, and I and I the children seh so. Yunno? So I don't see how much more reveal our people want. Wha' dem want? a white God, well God come black. True true."[63]

According to Marley's biographers, he affiliated with the Twelve Tribes Mansion, one of the Mansions of Rastafari. He was in the denomination known as "Tribe of Joseph", because he was born in February (each of the twelve sects being composed of members born in a different month). He signified this in his album liner notes, quoting the portion from Genesis that includes Jacob's blessing to his son Joseph.

Archbishop Abuna Yesehaq baptized Marley into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, on 4 November 1980, shortly before his death.[64][65]


Why is it OK for Marley to state the words in the OP as a religious Rastafarian/Ethiopian Orthodox Christian but not for me, as a Catholic, to agree with both him and Silesius (another Catholic)? If Marley was a religious theist and wrote what he wrote then why can't Silesius have wrote something similar and why can't I agree with both of them?

I don't really understand where your coming from on this 9-10ths_Penguin.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't give a rat's hind quarters about Silesius. I'm trying to talk about a Bob Marley song.

Cool it mate, I never said you had too.

This whole debacle between us started because I said that I happened to agree with Marley and thought the sentiment/message was similar to that in a poem by Silesius.

For some reason, you took exception to the idea that either I or Silesius could agree with/say something similar to Marley. That's why we've got to where we are.

Also, last time I checked, Rastafarians believe in the Beatitudes and the Psalms. It is an Abrahamic religion, after all, and Marley was a fervent devotee for most of his life. So I would seriously question the interpretation of the song that you have given.
 
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Pudding

Well-Known Member
“If you know what life is worth you will look for yours on earth." – Bob Marley

What do you think? Is there any truth to Marley's statement? Why or why not?
Some people think what life worth for should be to follow a god's moral/law so they'll not receive punishment or bad consequences in the afterlife. This is base on the beliefs that their god exists.

Other people think what life worth for should be to finding it on earth instead of "follow any god's moral/law so that they'll not receive punishment or bad consequences in the afterlife". This is base on one don't believe any god exists.

As an atheist myself, i find and do what life worth for without follow any god who making such afterlife reward system. People who believe in those gods have their rights to find and do what they think life worth for through following their god to avoid bad consequences in the afterlife.

As long as the judgement day or afterlife or the god haven't come and show up, the situation probably will be, some people will continue to say that life is only worth provide one follow their god's moral/law to avoid bad consequences because they believe so, other people who don't believe their god will disagree with them. That also involve people making government's law to accord with religion god's law to impose to non-believer, i don't like that.

They can follow their god's law as they wish, but they have no rights to impose their god's law upon me.
I have no obligation to follow those god's law because i don't believe in those god's existence, just like they have no obligation to follow the god's law who the god is not their god because they don't believe in those god's existence.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I honestly don't understand the statement. At all. All humans are born on earth, and all live their lives on earth. I don't get the point of the statement. Maybe it would make sense with proper context. Or maybe it's just late and I'm being dumb right now.

It's OK, Quint. Most of the people in here agreeing with it don't understand it either. :D
 

Covellite

Active Member
His life style promoted the most simple yet extravagant living.
Brilliant way to achieve personal freedom and self-realization.
 
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