One for "great crowd".

The WT teaches that only the "anointed" Christians, the 144,000 are under the new covenant and the great crowd is not. If the great crowd is not under the new covenant, how are their sins forgiven? How do they have any hope at all?


*** w14 10/15 p. 16 par. 11 You Will Become “a Kingdom of Priests” ***
By concluding the new covenant with them, God would put his laws “in their mind, and in their hearts [he would] write them.” (Heb. 8:10) The total number of those in the new covenant would be 144,000, making up a new nation—“the Israel of God”—spiritual Israel.—Gal. 6:16; Rev. 14:1, 4.


This is the new covenant God made,

Jer 31:33-34 (ESVST) 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ' Know the Lord, ' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Forgiveness of sins is in the new covenant, if you are not in the new covenant your sins are not forgiven and you have no earthly nor heavenly hope.

Unless, you belong to the WT org,

*** w93 9/15 p. 22 They Compassionately Shepherd the Little Sheep ***
But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.)

But how can that be, Peter said there was no salvation in anyone else but Jesus. And it has to be true because Peter was "filled with the Holy Spirit".

Act 4:11-12 (ESVST) 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Because they are "substitutes" for Jesus,

*** w98 12/15 p. 18 par. 10 This Is the Day of Salvation! ***
10 Jehovah has committed the ministry of reconciliation to the anointed, so Paul could say: “We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: ‘Become reconciled to God.’” (2 Corinthians 5:20) In ancient times, ambassadors were dispatched mainly during periods of hostility to see if warfare could be averted. (Luke 14:31, 32) Since the sinful world of mankind is alienated from God, he has sent his anointed ambassadors forth to inform people of his terms for reconciliation. As substitutes for Christ, anointed ones beg: “Become reconciled to God.” This entreaty is a merciful urging to seek peace with God and accept the salvation he makes possible through Christ.

Anyone of the "great crowd" or "anointed" care to take a stab at explaining this for me?

djhwoodwerks said:

Anyone of the "great crowd" or "anointed" care to take a stab at explaining this for me?

Click to expand...

Sure. I'll take a stab at it.

What you are talking about is the position taken of a group of people that apparently believe themselves to be spokespeople for God, or interpreters of God's will -- or somehow in the know about what God really wants.

In addition, you have provided an explanation as to why that group has come to the conclusion that the people that don't listen to them don't get into heaven.

A person that does not accept the premise of the WT being any sort of authority has no need to refute anything they say.

4consideration said:

Sure. I'll take a stab at it.

What you are talking about is the position taken of a group of people that apparently believe themselves to be spokespeople for God, or interpreters of God's will -- or somehow in the know about what God really wants.

In addition, you have provided an explanation as to why that group has come to the conclusion that the people that don't listen to them don't get into heaven.

A person that does not accept the premise of the WT being any sort of authority has no need to refute anything they say.

Click to expand...

I disagree with that statement,

Jud 1:22-23 (ESVST) 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

djhwoodwerks said:

I disagree with that statement,

Jud 1:22-23 (ESVST) 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

Click to expand...

That's perfectly fine. I don't believe in a literal hell, so I don't need someone to save me from it.

All the rest is just opinion. So, an organization that is looking to save me is only looking to save me in their own opinion. As far as I'm concerned, it is fine with me for people in a group to decide amongst themselves that I'm going to hell -- as long as they leave me the hell alone.

edit: Whether or not there is a belief in a hell experience, the same basic thought applies for me regarding a "heaven" experience as well.

"144,000" would not be written that way because no number in Koine Greek went that high. Instead, it's written as twelve, twelve, thousands.

In Jewish tradition, "12" stood for "completion", and "1000" stood for great numbers or numbers too high to count. Put together, it can be viewed as symbolic and may be rendered this way: completion on top of completion with numbers too high to count. This actually makes sense in the context of what was being covered in the text, namely the then current and future success of the expansion of the Way through large numbers of converts.

Is this what the author was saying? We simply cannot tell, but the next time I see him, I'll ask him.

metis said:

This actually makes sense in the context of what was being covered in the text, namely the then current and future success of the expansion of the Way through large numbers of converts.

Click to expand...

@metis, when are you going to learn that "make[ing] sense in the context of what was being covered in the text" is not particularly valued in discussions such as this?

The purpose of this thread is to find out how the rank and file JW's believe they have any hope of heaven or an earthly paradise. If they are not under the new covenant they have no forgiveness of sins.