muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Oh well .. how can you 'keep within the rules' if you are an automaton and have no power to choose?
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Free will? It may be just the brain tricking itself
- Thread starter Aupmanyav
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
It is like water flowing in a canal, it has to go in the channel, there is no other option.
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ThirtyThree
Well-Known Member
I just do not believe will is "free", is all. There are choices, I just do not believe we make them as "freely" as many might believe. Your argument is an interesting one also and I have no answers.
Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
Free will might be an illusion, I partially agree with this statement but can't agree with brain part.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
How is 'free will' like water flowing in a canal?
Why do you need to pass a driving test to drive a car on the public highway? To see if your 'water flows'?
Meaningless to me, sorry
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yes, to see if it flows in the channel. If it does not then one would not get the license.
What is the basis of your belief?
I asked if you could answer any of the questions I asked in #29. For instance:
On our recent trip to Australia, New Zealand and Melanesia, my husband and I spent a great deal of time and effort researching and planning our trip beforehand. That was certainly a big waste of time and energy if the supposedly deterministic world had already determined that we would take this trip, stay at the places where we stayed, and participate in the activities that we participated in. And, again, how did we know more than a year beforehand that we would take that trip? How did we know months in advance that “fate” would take us to specific hotels on specific dates?
So your religion about free will just leaves such issues an eternal mystery?
ThirtyThree
Well-Known Member
Maybe I just do not care enough to define it.
What about when last week, out of the blue, and now feel sorry for doing such a stupid thing, on a whim I opened an account with an online horse racing gambling site, deposited $200 dollars, then bet $20 dollars on some ponies after handicapping The Daily Racing Forum, lost the $20 dollars, realized this was totally dumb and ... felt guilty about it, and ...
... it wasn't my own choice, my own free will to do such a thing? Like, I was controlled, or forced, tricked to do it and had nothing to do with my boredom at the time?
... Luckily, I got that $20 dollars back, because I bought some stock after that and today I already have a $6849 profit! But the reason I bought that stock is, not that it was my own mind, my own analysis of the market, my own free will to do so, but tricksterism controlling my mind?
If I even have a mind or soul?
And if none of us have free will, wouldn't the "results" sort of all balance out the same for all, like everyone is equally a loser? I mean, I understand, some live in a desert, some live on top of an iceberg, some live in California, and so on, so that might impact the bottom line with all things equal and we have no will and are the same clay if you will, but then why are some "teachers" and "creators" and others are just "consumers" and "complainers" and why are some too lazy to feed themself and demand others to feed them if they have no free will? Wouldn't everyone just sit with their mouth open and expect some giant bird will drop a sour green jelly candy into their gullet?
Or do we actually do have a brain that is, not so much "tricked", but "balancing" and "calculating" to achieve a "result"? And why are these "results" or "goals" so diverse, one has this goal, another entirelly different, and if we have no will and ability to analyse then how did these "experts" even have the ability to analyse these conclusions in this analysis and why would it even occur to them to do so if they are all just mush?
... it wasn't my own choice, my own free will to do such a thing? Like, I was controlled, or forced, tricked to do it and had nothing to do with my boredom at the time?
... Luckily, I got that $20 dollars back, because I bought some stock after that and today I already have a $6849 profit! But the reason I bought that stock is, not that it was my own mind, my own analysis of the market, my own free will to do so, but tricksterism controlling my mind?
If I even have a mind or soul?
And if none of us have free will, wouldn't the "results" sort of all balance out the same for all, like everyone is equally a loser? I mean, I understand, some live in a desert, some live on top of an iceberg, some live in California, and so on, so that might impact the bottom line with all things equal and we have no will and are the same clay if you will, but then why are some "teachers" and "creators" and others are just "consumers" and "complainers" and why are some too lazy to feed themself and demand others to feed them if they have no free will? Wouldn't everyone just sit with their mouth open and expect some giant bird will drop a sour green jelly candy into their gullet?
Or do we actually do have a brain that is, not so much "tricked", but "balancing" and "calculating" to achieve a "result"? And why are these "results" or "goals" so diverse, one has this goal, another entirelly different, and if we have no will and ability to analyse then how did these "experts" even have the ability to analyse these conclusions in this analysis and why would it even occur to them to do so if they are all just mush?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
One really doesn't know that is why there are cancellations. It is chance that allows you. Even a small thing could necessitate your dumping of the plans. You researched hotels through various web-sites. Do you think they are unbiased? They forced you to make the choices, although it is quite possible that you did not make the best of the choices available in spite of doing your research. However, if you are satisfied with the result, it is OK - but that does not change the broad picture. You are hardly ever free.
Define what?
I only asked for a coherent explanation as to how my husband and I knew a year in advance that we would be (presumably) taking that particular trip, and for an explanation for all that time and energy we expended researching, planning and making reservations, etc., if it were true that the supposedly deterministic universe was going to take us on that trip anyway.
Obviously the idea that humans cannot act willfully doesn't provide for lucid explanations for what happens in the world.
Hey, how about giving us a stock tip?
What does that mean? If I have canceled something, then I know why I canceled it.
So you haven provided any explanation as to how my husband and I knew a year in advance that we would be taking that particular trip, or an explanation for all that time and energy we expended researching, planning and making reservations, etc., if it were true that the supposedly deterministic universe was going to take us on that trip anyway. Right?
Is that just a baseless belief, or is it premised on some fact? If the latter, then provide that fact.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
May luck shine on you every day, and so also on the members of the forum.
Yes, you know why you cancelled it.Something that you did not expect to happen happened. Chance allowed your husband and yourself to avail the holiday, thank your stars for it. It could just as easily have dismissed your plan. Do we know what is going to happen in the next moment? I am not talking of a pre-determined thing. That is not true. I am talking of the slips between the cup and the lip. It is chance that allows you to do something, you are powerless against chance. That is why Lord Krishna says in Gita that never consider yourself to be the cause of anything that happens. Chance is the final arbiterer.
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No unforeseen accidents happened that caused us or anyone else to cancel any of our plans. And we were even able to anticipate the possibility of unforeseen accidents that might entail some cancellation, and took insurance for our trip.
Your claims about accidents do not explain how we knew months in advance that, except for unforeseen and unforeseeable accidents (which didn’t happen), we would get on a plane on a certain date, first fly to San Francisco, then after a two-hour layover, catch a flight to Sydney, stay in certain hotels and other lodging on certain dates, and participate in specific activities at specific locations on certain dates. And you haven’t articulated any coherent explanation for the huge expenditure of time and energy in our planning, researching, making reservations, etc., went went on for months beforehand.
If it were true that humans cannot willfully determine their own voluntary bodily movements, then the enormous amounts of time and energy that go into the alleged “delusion” of pondering, anticipating and planning our acts and solving problems is entirely inexplicable. Such a huge waste of energy on the alleged “delusion” of being able to determine one’s own voluntary bodily movements is directly contrary to the principles of evolution and natural selection--the alleged “delusion” would be a highly wasteful and inefficient trait that would have been selected out long ago (before it was ever selected for). See William James’ and Karl Popper’s arguments against epiphenomenalism.
It’s interesting how those who deny the human ability to act willfully so adamantly assert and adhere to this belief despite it being a self-stultifying belief (exactly like belief in epiphenomenalism is), and despite being unable to articulate even a minimal logical justification for such a belief or to account for even the simplest and most commonplace human behavior.
The events of the universe are obviously not mere random events (even if random events do occur), nor are human actions random.
Determinism is a false religion. The findings and theories of modern physics prove it.
The only coherent explanation for our knowing that our bodies would engaged in the various actions that made up our trip is that we determined those bodily movements by which we arrived at the airport at a certain time on a specific date, got on a certain flight, stayed in specific lodgings on specific dates, etc., etc.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Many events in the universe are random. Supernova is one of them. However, human actions may be random and may not be random, but I believe they are always conditioned. Views differ.
Go right ahead and state the argument, premised on facts, that human actions are random. There is obviously no rational reason to believe that human actions are random if we can't deduce that conclusion from facts.
So again you are backing away from the claim that humans cannot act willfully. No one here has disputed that humans are influenced in the acts that they willfully perform.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Do you see a discrepancy in the underlined portions of the sentence? That is the conditionality that I am talking about.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Of course we are all influenced by other people and events .. this does not excuse us for holding the responsibility of our actions. A court will judge according to what we do, taking external conditions into consideration. That is the realistic position. We have been given intelligence and we are required to use it .. not pretend that we don't really make decisions .. that's deceitful
No, there is no “discrepancy” or contradiction in being influenced in one’s actions and acting willfully. I was influenced yesterday in my decision to drive to the more distant grocery store because it has a larger selection of items and is slightly less expensive than the nearer grocery store. I still acted willfully in going to the more distant store, and sometimes I do choose to shop at the closer store. All of those decisions and actions are willful acts--the fact that I was influenced does not make them any less so.