Just because God know what we will do doesn't mean that He is controlling us. Fortune-tellers don't control us. If you know that your child must make a decision, & you know what decision he will make because of what type of person he is, does that mean you are controling him?
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Does God Exist?
- Thread starter BrandenTownsend
- Start date
BrandenTownsend
Member
See, the thing about that is your comparing a parent and his/her child to the most powerful being in existence and us. God is in control of what we do if you think about it, because he wrote the book which is our lives. He pre-destined us to do everything we have ever done. For example, if you are planning to buy a car, but you aren't sure if you will, your choice in the matter isnt even your choice, because god already made that decision for you like 1,000,000 years ago. When he was writing the "plan" for your life long before you were born, he decided then whether or not you would buy that car, and even though you have a brain and can think and make decisions, really all your doing is following the program that god downloaded in your brain when you were born. So, in that sense, if you think about it, we are no more than slaves to god. We are like ants in one huge ant farm that god created for his own amusement.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
You see, this is where a HUGE contradiction lies:
If god is all powerful and all knowing, then we certainly do not have free will, because 'god's plan' for our lives was created indeed before we were born. Free will, as I define it to myself, is the ability to make any desicion, spur of the moment, without any premeditated idea about it. Christians would say that we do make our own decisions (god does not control) but that god just knowswhat we will decide. If it becomes written into 'the script', however, is it free will anymore?
On the other hand, if lets say, god knows what the outcome will be to each possible choice, but not which one we will ultimately choose, then he is not all powerful and all knowing anymore. There is either no god, or no free will.
If god is all powerful and all knowing, then we certainly do not have free will, because 'god's plan' for our lives was created indeed before we were born. Free will, as I define it to myself, is the ability to make any desicion, spur of the moment, without any premeditated idea about it. Christians would say that we do make our own decisions (god does not control) but that god just knowswhat we will decide. If it becomes written into 'the script', however, is it free will anymore?
On the other hand, if lets say, god knows what the outcome will be to each possible choice, but not which one we will ultimately choose, then he is not all powerful and all knowing anymore. There is either no god, or no free will.
If God defines what is good and evil then creating Satan wasn't and evil act. It brings the question of is it pious because God defines it to be, or does piety exist without regard to God. Frankley the whole God Satan thing doesn't hold alot of weight with me, but I liked you comment about Noah. I always say that the idea of Noah collecting a pair of every animal is improbable because if you melted them down and poured them into the Arc you run out at about the Emu. Silly, but it gets the point across.
BrandenTownsend
Member
Also, if god wrote the plan for our lives way before we were born, then he has already decided what our life will be, where we go and what we do. How do we have free will? We are like computers that god programmed, and we are simply following the program. Do computers have free will? No, they do what we tell them to do, and what we programed them to do.
BrandenTownsend
Member
And, by the way, the bible is supposed to be god's holy word right? Well, if god's own word isn't true, then god is a liar, therefore he is not holy, or good, or even in existence.
true blood
Active Member
Reason why there is Evil: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory"
Gen 3:16-19 is more reasons
Gen 3:16-19 is more reasons
Mr Spinkles
Mr
So God is on a power trip... he wants to create bad "vases" so that when he destroys them for being bad, it'll REALLY impress all the good "vases".
If I had the power to do so, I would make all the vases "good" and if I made bad ones, I wouldn't condemn them. And that's coming from a lowly mortal- isn't God supposed to be MORE loving and merciful than I am, not less?
If I had the power to do so, I would make all the vases "good" and if I made bad ones, I wouldn't condemn them. And that's coming from a lowly mortal- isn't God supposed to be MORE loving and merciful than I am, not less?
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Booya Mr. Spinkles!
Excellent point! Indeed, god creates us to be sinful and imperfect, so he's either screwing up, or he's meaning to do what he does because he wants us that way. Which leads to him either not minding that we're sinful, or he likes to play cowboys and indians (cowboys being angels, humans being indians...right)
Excellent point! Indeed, god creates us to be sinful and imperfect, so he's either screwing up, or he's meaning to do what he does because he wants us that way. Which leads to him either not minding that we're sinful, or he likes to play cowboys and indians (cowboys being angels, humans being indians...right)
dudley thoth
Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
Jesus conquered evil on the cross. If the greatest evil can become the greatest good...
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
If Jesus conquered evil on the cross, why are we still dealing with it today? Why is sin (evil) still a daily struggle? That's some lousy conquering if you ask me.
And how can the greatest evil become the greatest good? That is a very dualistic thought. I think evil and good are what we make of them, personally, but that's taken care of in another forum. ('Dualism', under 'General religious debates' or just regular 'religious debates' I think)
And how can the greatest evil become the greatest good? That is a very dualistic thought. I think evil and good are what we make of them, personally, but that's taken care of in another forum. ('Dualism', under 'General religious debates' or just regular 'religious debates' I think)
dudley thoth
Member
Ceridwen018 said:
All evil can become good. Bad things happen that can strengthen us. Help us trust God.
It's not dualistic. Evil is limited. Good isn't.
God Bless.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
Evil is not limited, it can go to its extreme just as good can.
dudley thoth
Member
Master Vigil said:
That's Dualistic!
...or is it?
true blood
Active Member
Wait a minute.. None of us are the first to question "Why does evil exist?"
Job himself asks God why. Its a popular question 'If god exists? why is the world full of so much evil?" Have you tried searching through the scriptures for your answers or do you assume you'll find this wisdom on a forum? Have you read Ezekiel, the passage when God speaks with Lucifer? "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, with great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.
Genesis 3:1-5 As soon as he reached earth, Satan undertook to deceive the human race.
Man's happiness was linked to his obedience to God.
But God did not want a forced obedience: so He allowed man the freedom to follow the way he preferred. However He gave him a serious warning about the consequences of his choice.
Alas! Satan deceived him in spite of that warning, and got him to disobey. "The god of this age", "the ruler of this world" This is how the Bible describes Satan.
Luke 4:5-7 shows Jesus and Satan agreeing that the kingdoms of this world are Satan's property.
Genesis 3:17,18 Nature was also marked by the appearance of sin. The soil no longer cooperated so easily with man. Many beasts became wild. The planet became hostile with its storms, earthquakes, and other disasters.
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord God, and not that he should turn from his ways and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn and live!
With all this out there then why didn't god destory satan in the beginning?
If God had destroyed Satan immediately, His creation would then have served Him out of fear: so God chose to allow everyone the time to measure the consequences of Satan's rebellion. Fortunately, the experiment will soon come to a conclusion.
God is love.
Job himself asks God why. Its a popular question 'If god exists? why is the world full of so much evil?" Have you tried searching through the scriptures for your answers or do you assume you'll find this wisdom on a forum? Have you read Ezekiel, the passage when God speaks with Lucifer? "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, with great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.
Genesis 3:1-5 As soon as he reached earth, Satan undertook to deceive the human race.
Man's happiness was linked to his obedience to God.
But God did not want a forced obedience: so He allowed man the freedom to follow the way he preferred. However He gave him a serious warning about the consequences of his choice.
Alas! Satan deceived him in spite of that warning, and got him to disobey. "The god of this age", "the ruler of this world" This is how the Bible describes Satan.
Luke 4:5-7 shows Jesus and Satan agreeing that the kingdoms of this world are Satan's property.
Genesis 3:17,18 Nature was also marked by the appearance of sin. The soil no longer cooperated so easily with man. Many beasts became wild. The planet became hostile with its storms, earthquakes, and other disasters.
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord God, and not that he should turn from his ways and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn and live!
With all this out there then why didn't god destory satan in the beginning?
If God had destroyed Satan immediately, His creation would then have served Him out of fear: so God chose to allow everyone the time to measure the consequences of Satan's rebellion. Fortunately, the experiment will soon come to a conclusion.
God is love.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Because those stories don't make much sense.
If God wanted obedience, then why did he give Man free will? And if he gave Man free will, why did he get mad when the obedience was broken? And why did he blame Man, when it was Satan's trickery that's to blame? And why couldn't God give Man free will to do anything he wanted EXCEPT disobey (ie the freedom to choose among amoral choices).
And if God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to stop all evil and simultaneously give Man free will? If so, why doesn't He? If God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to destroy Satan immediately and still not make his creation serve Him out of fear? If he can't do this, then is he not all-powerful? And if he can do this, why doesn't he? It would make the world a much better place...
Those stories answer none of these questions adequately.
If God wanted obedience, then why did he give Man free will? And if he gave Man free will, why did he get mad when the obedience was broken? And why did he blame Man, when it was Satan's trickery that's to blame? And why couldn't God give Man free will to do anything he wanted EXCEPT disobey (ie the freedom to choose among amoral choices).
And if God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to stop all evil and simultaneously give Man free will? If so, why doesn't He? If God is all-powerful, doesn't he have the power to destroy Satan immediately and still not make his creation serve Him out of fear? If he can't do this, then is he not all-powerful? And if he can do this, why doesn't he? It would make the world a much better place...
Those stories answer none of these questions adequately.
true blood
Active Member
If you have some kids some day you'll want them to be have obedience right? You'll also want them to have free will am I right? Free will to have power of making unconstrained free choices? And if your child disobeys, breaking obedience, will you not get upset with him? Maybe out of love for your child? You've given him guidance and taught him the consequences of his choices.
Mr_Spinkles how can we be forced to obey and still have free choice as you suggested?
I'm pretty sure God has laid plans on destroying Satan. Perhaps you should read the scriptures a bit more. Why he hasn't done it yet? That isn't an answer I can provide. To me it sounds like you are in search of answers. Have you tried searching the scriptures for this wisdom you seek?
Mr_Spinkles how can we be forced to obey and still have free choice as you suggested?
I'm pretty sure God has laid plans on destroying Satan. Perhaps you should read the scriptures a bit more. Why he hasn't done it yet? That isn't an answer I can provide. To me it sounds like you are in search of answers. Have you tried searching the scriptures for this wisdom you seek?
dudley thoth
Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
Is obedience all God wants from us?
If we remove ourselves from the life source we destroy ourselves.
we are responsible for our own actions.
I guess that wouldn't be freewill.
He did this on the cross. Evil was defeated in the very beginning.
See above.
He can. He is. He has. It is.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
If he did do this on the cross, why does evil still exist today? And if you don't think it does, I feel you need to open your eyes.
dudley thoth
Member
Master Vigil said:
we need to open the eyes of our heart.
See above.
"Stand at the crossroads and look;
Ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk
in it,
and you will find rest for your souls.
But you said, 'we will not walk in it.' (Jeremiah 6:16 N.I.V)