My Heretical Theory

The Panentheist · Apr 19, 2006

I'm a Christian, but my spiritual theories might strike some as odd or even heretical, but as many of them as possible are rooted in either Biblical or historical ideas. One such theory of mine in my view on the concept of "Salvation".

Let me start from the beginning of the issue. All that follows, unless otherwise specified, is theoretical.

God created humanity, Biblically symbolized by Adam and Eve. We were pure and moral beings at the time, close to God in spirit, but God realized that we were weak of spirit and ignorant of the nature of things, and thus he feared that we would not achieve the potential he'd mapped out for us. Thus he removed our immortality, seperated good and evil within us, gave us physical forms, and placed us on the Earth with the hopes that we would learn and grow and become the children he'd hoped for. It was as if we were young children leaving the safety of the nursery to go to school.

Thus, we're seperated from God and live our lives, not out of our inherant badness and rebelliousness (after all, could a perfect God make beings so easily swayed when in a supposedly perfect state?), but out of God's desire to perfect us.

Under this premise, our lives should be spent learning, growing, gaining experience, living morally, and helping others. Now we throw in an ancient concept called Theosis.

If you aren't familiar with Theosis, Theosis is a process, by which we become "like God." This doesn't mean we become God, but merely become divine. Connecting the dots, I see Theosis as a method by which we reattain the immortality, moral perfection, and harmony with God that we lost long ago. To achieve Theosis, we must learn and grow enough, and live as morally as possible, and thus, through personal effort, we "save" ourselves and join God in spirit.

Now we'll include Jesus in the picture. I've said in another post that I considered Jesus to be a mortal man, but a wise man who lived a good life and helped many people. It is my belief that, through his good life, Jesus achieved Theosis and thus BECAME divine, rising from mortal man to the place reserved for us at God's side. By living a Christ-like life, I think we all can achieve Theosis and earn our birthright.

The word Christ is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew "messiah", which means "annointed one." Annointed with what? The spirit of God. Jesus became at one with God's spirit, and we all can do the same. We all should strive to become "Christ", not as in becoming Jesus, but annointed with God's spirit like Jesus was...completely man and, by Theosis, completely divine, like Jesus was.

This may seem far-fetched, but, in my subjective eyes, it works. It's unconventional, sure, and perhaps heretical, by the reckoning of some. I'm still developing this theory, and filling in holes. Any support, suggestions, constructive questions, or even criticism (from which I can improve my theory) would be greatly appreciated.

evearael · Apr 19, 2006

You may want to consider interweaving verses about Enoch... Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, for God took him away."

Halcyon · Apr 19, 2006

The Panentheist said:
I'm a Christian, but my spiritual theories might strike some as odd or even heretical, but as many of them as possible are rooted in either Biblical or historical ideas. One such theory of mine in my view on the concept of "Salvation".

Let me start from the beginning of the issue. All that follows, unless otherwise specified, is theoretical.

God created humanity, Biblically symbolized by Adam and Eve. We were pure and moral beings at the time, close to God in spirit, but God realized that we were weak of spirit and ignorant of the nature of things, and thus he feared that we would not achieve the potential he'd mapped out for us. Thus he removed our immortality, seperated good and evil within us, gave us physical forms, and placed us on the Earth with the hopes that we would learn and grow and become the children he'd hoped for. It was as if we were young children leaving the safety of the nursery to go to school.

Thus, we're seperated from God and live our lives, not out of our inherant badness and rebelliousness (after all, could a perfect God make beings so easily swayed when in a supposedly perfect state?), but out of God's desire to perfect us.

Under this premise, our lives should be spent learning, growing, gaining experience, living morally, and helping others. Now we throw in an ancient concept called Theosis.

If you aren't familiar with Theosis, Theosis is a process, by which we become "like God." This doesn't mean we become God, but merely become divine. Connecting the dots, I see Theosis as a method by which we reattain the immortality, moral perfection, and harmony with God that we lost long ago. To achieve Theosis, we must learn and grow enough, and live as morally as possible, and thus, through personal effort, we "save" ourselves and join God in spirit.

Now we'll include Jesus in the picture. I've said in another post that I considered Jesus to be a mortal man, but a wise man who lived a good life and helped many people. It is my belief that, through his good life, Jesus achieved Theosis and thus BECAME divine, rising from mortal man to the place reserved for us at God's side. By living a Christ-like life, I think we all can achieve Theosis and earn our birthright.

The word Christ is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew "messiah", which means "annointed one." Annointed with what? The spirit of God. Jesus became at one with God's spirit, and we all can do the same. We all should strive to become "Christ", not as in becoming Jesus, but annointed with God's spirit like Jesus was...completely man and, by Theosis, completely divine, like Jesus was.

This may seem far-fetched, but, in my subjective eyes, it works. It's unconventional, sure, and perhaps heretical, by the reckoning of some. I'm still developing this theory, and filling in holes. Any support, suggestions, constructive questions, or even criticism (from which I can improve my theory) would be greatly appreciated.

It is heretical, especially the highlighted part.

But you're not alone, several people on this site hold different beliefs to the orthodox. My personal beliefs are similar to several of your beliefs

michel · Apr 19, 2006

The Panentheist said:
I'm a Christian, but my spiritual theories might strike some as odd or even heretical, but as many of them as possible are rooted in either Biblical or historical ideas. One such theory of mine in my view on the concept of "Salvation".

.

God realized that we were weak of spirit and ignorant of nature of things, and thus he feared that we would not achieve the potential he'd mapped out for us. Thus he removed our immortality, seperated good and evil within us, gave us physical forms, and placed us on the Earth with the hopes that we would learn and grow and become the children he'd hoped for.

Thus, we're seperated from God and live our lives, not out of our inherant badness and rebelliousness (after all, could a perfect God make beings so easily swayed when in a supposedly perfect state?), but out of God's desire to perfect us.

Under this premise, our lives should be spent learning, growing, gaining experience, living morally, and helping others. Now we throw in an ancient concept called Theosis.

If you aren't familiar with Theosis, Theosis is a process, by which we become "like God." This doesn't mean we become God, but merely become divine. Connecting the dots, I see Theosis as a method by which we reattain the immortality, moral perfection, and harmony with God that we lost long ago. To achieve Theosis, we must learn and grow enough, and live as morally as possible, and thus, through personal effort, we "save" ourselves and join God in spirit.

Now we'll include Jesus in the picture. I've said in another post that I considered Jesus to be a mortal man, but a wise man who lived a good life and helped many people. It is my belief that, through his good life, Jesus achieved Theosis and thus BECAME divine, rising from mortal man to the place reserved for us at God's side. By living a Christ-like life, I think we all can achieve Theosis and earn our birthright.

Christ is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew "messiah", which means "annointed one." Annointed with what? The spirit of God. Jesus became at one with God's spirit, and we all can do the same. We all should strive to become Christ, annointed with God's spirit like Jesus was...completely man and, by Theosis, completely divine, like Jesus was.

If that is heresy, call me a heretic.

"God realized that we were weak of spirit and ignorant of nature of things, and thus he feared that we would not achieve the potential he'd mapped out for us"

I am not sure that God did actually 'map out a potential' for us, but the rest of what you wrote (which I have quoted) is pretty much what I believe.

Add to that reincarnation, and it would seem as if our beliefs are pretty much paralllel. I believe that Jesu Christ's incarnation here was the last one before he 're-joined God forever', which is what I believe we will all do at some time - ie when we have become 'perfect enough'.

As far as my deviation from yours (in believing in reincarnation is concerned), the logic behind the idea is that there is no way that we humans can be put through every test possible (to qualify for God-likeness) in one incarnation; my other reasons are because of what I would call strong indication that there is reincarnation.

The Panentheist · Apr 19, 2006

Wow, I've gotten more positive responses than I imagined. I was expecting a burning cross in my yard by dawn.

Thanks for the suggestion, Evearael. And I've thought along those lines, too, Michel. I've considered reincarnation as well, thinking, like you, that such a measure would be needed for us to learn what we needed to learn. I merely avoided reincarnation due to lack of Biblical or historical support, though it makes more sense, assuming that everything else we've thought is accurate. And about the "mapping potential" thing; I only meant that I think God has a plan for us, beyond this life we live now, as Romans 8:18-22 seems to imply.

Green Gaia · Apr 19, 2006

The Panentheist said:
Wow, I've gotten more positive responses than I imagined. I was expecting a burning cross in my yard by dawn.

We're not that kind of forum.

Mike182 · Apr 19, 2006

you've got heretical beliefs...... let's not delve into mine then :biglaugh:

parts of your theories are things ive not conciderd before, you have me intruiged! i hope you decide to stick around for a bit, i would be interested in hearing your oppinion on many of the discussions and debates we have going at the moment

mike.

angellous_evangellous · Apr 19, 2006

It's heretical in total as it stands, no emphasis on human sin nor the role of Christ. What you've proposed cannot be called Christianity, but rather a humanistic Gnosticism.

Jeremiah61 · May 23, 2006

As for Jesus being merely a "wise man," one would have to disregard such passages as-

John 1:1-14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 10:30
"I and my Father are one."

John 15:1-4
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Hebrews 1:8
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom."

So the question is, if Jesus were a mere man, what of these statements?

Thus, we're seperated from God and live our lives, not out of our inherant badness and rebelliousness (after all, could a perfect God make beings so easily swayed when in a supposedly perfect state?), but out of God's desire to perfect us.

How could Adam and Eve have been perfect if not given the oppurtunity to be imperfect? Which is of greater worth, to be good because it is all one can do, or to be good because one chooses to be. The greater the potential for virtue, the greater the potential for vice. If Adam and Eve were not given the oppurtunity to sin, how could they have been perfect; they would have simply been automatons. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.

In regards to God seperating us from Himself for our perfection, and not for our transgressions, is it not written-
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

No offense intended in above statements, ite?

Jeremiah61 · May 23, 2006

As C.S. Lewis one put it, regarding Christ's deity-

"Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside of the world, who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips."

To say the Christ only a moral teacher is preposterous. A "moral teacher" would not have said the kind of things Jesus said.

James the Persian · May 24, 2006

I'm afraid you are rather misrepresenting Theosis. It is not at all a doctrine of us saving ourselves but of us working in synergy with God to become like Him by His grace. In other words, if left to our own efforts alone we could never progress in the process of Theosis. Seeing as this is the dominant thread in the soteriology of the Orthodox Church, I feel I know this pretty well. I'd also suggest that by your belief that God made us mortal rather than that we did that to ourselves you in effect say that God is against us rather than helps us and this would render Theosis impossible. Furthermore, you appear to have more of an Adoptionalist view of who Christ was which, unfortunately, destroys all ability for you to cling to he doctrine of Theosis. If Christ was not truly God Incarnate then the entire underpinnings of Theosis fall away. Frankly, I would suggest that you need to do a lot more research into Theosis if you want to understand it correctly, because it simply does not work within your Pelagian and Adoptionalist framework. I would suggest reading St. Athanasios to understand the importance of the Incarnation to the doctrine and St. John Cassian to understand the synergy of man's work and God's grace.

James

joeboonda · May 24, 2006

The whole theory is full of heresy according to the authority of the scriptures. But just looking at the salvation bit, how you feel we grow into salvation, through our own efforts is in direct contrast to the Word of God, as is what you believe about Jesus Christ. See what Paul wrote in Romans to Israel:

10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is God incarnate, who died for our sins, was buried and rose again, according to scripture. This is the Gospel, that He paid for our sins, and gave us His righteousness in place of our own. On the authority of the Bible is what I place my faith, not on my 'feelings', or some other strange doctrine I or some man comes up with, but only on the BIBLE, the Word of God. Period. Beware, for what you believe does NOT make you a saved, born-again Christian according to God's Word.

Troublemane · Mar 28, 2008

Hey Panentheist, great post! Yes I agree with A_E, it sounds like gnosticism, which aint a bad thing, but as many have said its "heretical" (ie, different opinion). Of course, if God is not separate from his creations (the main idea behind panentheism

), then any apparent separateness from the divine is just an illusion we humans have built up, and so this learning experience you so eloquently described is self-imposed. (God sent God to school)

Mr Cheese · Jun 24, 2009

Halcyon said:
It is heretical, especially the highlighted part.

But you're not alone, several people on this site hold different beliefs to the orthodox. My personal beliefs are similar to several of your beliefs

Theosis involves the action of the true self, or Christ...

thus we do indeed save ourselves...

This is Orthodox Christianity (greek, russian, coptic etc)

Mr Cheese · Jun 24, 2009

James the Persian said:
I'm afraid you are rather misrepresenting Theosis. It is not at all a doctrine of us saving ourselves but of us working in synergy with God to become like Him by His grace. In other words, if left to our own efforts alone we could never progress in the process of Theosis. Seeing as this is the dominant thread in the soteriology of the Orthodox Church, I feel I know this pretty well. I'd also suggest that by your belief that God made us mortal rather than that we did that to ourselves you in effect say that God is against us rather than helps us and this would render Theosis impossible. Furthermore, you appear to have more of an Adoptionalist view of who Christ was which, unfortunately, destroys all ability for you to cling to he doctrine of Theosis. If Christ was not truly God Incarnate then the entire underpinnings of Theosis fall away. Frankly, I would suggest that you need to do a lot more research into Theosis if you want to understand it correctly, because it simply does not work within your Pelagian and Adoptionalist framework. I would suggest reading St. Athanasios to understand the importance of the Incarnation to the doctrine and St. John Cassian to understand the synergy of man's work and God's grace.

James

We are saving ourselves in the sense that our true selves are God...

akin to the teachings of folk like Eckhart...

Mr Cheese · Jun 24, 2009

Archimandrite George has been the Abbot of St. Gregorios Monastery since 1974. He is well known throughout the Orthodox world both as a theologian and spiritual father. He has written many books and articles on theology and the spiritual life. His works have been translated into many languages.
The idea of Theosis will be unfamiliar to the Western mind, although it is not a new concept to Christianity. When Christ said, Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, [1] this is a call to a life of Theosis.
Theosis is personal communion with God face to face. [2] To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christs teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; [3] His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God [4] a Kingdom not of this world. [5] When Jesus said, You are gods, [6] be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect, [7] or the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father, [8] this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.

The whole sacrificial tradition of Israel beginning with the sacrificial offering of Isaac reaches fulfillment in Jesus Christ. St. John the Baptist echoing Isaiah says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes upon Himself the sins of the world. [9] St. Paul has this in mind when he says, If you are Christs, then you are descendants of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise, [10] because those who believe are children of Abraham. [11] The name Israel, was given to Jacob by God as an expression of his fidelity. Later this name was inherited by his faithful descendants. This train of thought is expounded in the writings of St. Paul, where he blesses the Church as the Israel of God; [12] whilst elsewhere he wrestles with and is pained by his fellow Jews denial of their own Messiah, labeling them Israel according to the flesh. [13]
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/theosis.aspx

Here we can see how we save ourselves, or more accuratly Christ saves us, so to speak...

There are of course different "stages" of theosis...
Theosis as has been mentioned is rather akin to Gnosis, the mandaeans for example detail different levels of Gnosis
Nazirutha is the Mandaean/Aramaic name for Nazorean Gnosis. Those among the Mandaeans who possess secret knowledge are called Nazuraiia, or Nazoreans. The less enlightened lay Mandeaeans are called Mandaiia, meaning gnostics. True enlightenment, however, is considered very rare and is called Nazirutha. Below is a summary of Nazirutha doctrine according to the Mandaean scholar E.S. Drower:
1. A supreme formless Entity, the expression of which in time and space is creation of spiritual, etheric, and material worlds and beings. Production of these is delegated by It to a creator or creators who originated in It. The cosmos is created by Archetypal Man, who produces it in similitude to his own shape.
2. Dualism: a cosmic Father and Mother, Light and Dark-ness, Right and Left, syzygy in cosmic and microcosmic form.
3. As a feature of this dualism, counter-types, a world of ideas.
4. The soul is portrayed as an exile, a captive; her home and origin being the supreme Entity to which she eventually returns.
5. Planets and stars influence fate and human beings, and are also places of detention after death.
6. A saviour spirit or saviour spirits which assist the soul on her journey through life and after it to worlds of light.
7. A cult-language of symbol and metaphor. Ideas and quali-ties are personified.
8. Mysteries, i.e. sacraments to aid and purify the soul, to ensure her rebirth into a spiritual body, and her ascent from the world of matter. These are often adaptations of existing seasonal and traditional rites to which an esoteric interpretation is attached. In the case of the Nasoraeans this interpretation is based on the Creation story (see 1 and 2), especially on the Divine Man, Adam, as crowned and anointed King-priest.
9. Great secrecy is enjoined upon initiates; full explanation of I, 2, and 8 being reserved for those considered able to understand and preserve the gnosis.
Other features and developments occur in various syncretic and gnostic systems, but the above are, upon the whole, the distinguishing features of Nasoraean gnosis, Nasiratha. - The Secret Adam by Drower, pg xvi

We also find this idea in the term known as "Theurgy" in its original usuage 9although there are are alternatives) but the one I propose here is the Egyptian one which states theurgy is the act of becoming a hollow reed.
Here is my crude attempt at a blog post on theosis where some of the above is extracted
I am dating a Coptic Christian, so I am little informed ...
Reflection for Januray 30, 2009: What is the purpose of Religion? (Part 1) « Prayers and Reflections

simon kole · Feb 20, 2011

The Panentheist said:
I'm a Christian, but my spiritual theories might strike some as odd or even heretical, but as many of them as possible are rooted in either Biblical or historical ideas. One such theory of mine in my view on the concept of "Salvation".

Let me start from the beginning of the issue. All that follows, unless otherwise specified, is theoretical.

God created humanity, Biblically symbolized by Adam and Eve. We were pure and moral beings at the time, close to God in spirit, but God realized that we were weak of spirit and ignorant of the nature of things, and thus he feared that we would not achieve the potential he'd mapped out for us. Thus he removed our immortality, seperated good and evil within us, gave us physical forms, and placed us on the Earth with the hopes that we would learn and grow and become the children he'd hoped for. It was as if we were young children leaving the safety of the nursery to go to school.

Thus, we're seperated from God and live our lives, not out of our inherant badness and rebelliousness (after all, could a perfect God make beings so easily swayed when in a supposedly perfect state?), but out of God's desire to perfect us.

Under this premise, our lives should be spent learning, growing, gaining experience, living morally, and helping others. Now we throw in an ancient concept called Theosis.

If you aren't familiar with Theosis, Theosis is a process, by which we become "like God." This doesn't mean we become God, but merely become divine. Connecting the dots, I see Theosis as a method by which we reattain the immortality, moral perfection, and harmony with God that we lost long ago. To achieve Theosis, we must learn and grow enough, and live as morally as possible, and thus, through personal effort, we "save" ourselves and join God in spirit.

Now we'll include Jesus in the picture. I've said in another post that I considered Jesus to be a mortal man, but a wise man who lived a good life and helped many people. It is my belief that, through his good life, Jesus achieved Theosis and thus BECAME divine, rising from mortal man to the place reserved for us at God's side. By living a Christ-like life, I think we all can achieve Theosis and earn our birthright.

The word Christ is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew "messiah", which means "annointed one." Annointed with what? The spirit of God. Jesus became at one with God's spirit, and we all can do the same. We all should strive to become "Christ", not as in becoming Jesus, but annointed with God's spirit like Jesus was...completely man and, by Theosis, completely divine, like Jesus was.

This may seem far-fetched, but, in my subjective eyes, it works. It's unconventional, sure, and perhaps heretical, by the reckoning of some. I'm still developing this theory, and filling in holes. Any support, suggestions, constructive questions, or even criticism (from which I can improve my theory) would be greatly appreciated.

just dont call it revealed christianity

Cricket · Apr 30, 2011

michel said:
If that is heresy, call me a heretic.

"God realized that we were weak of spirit and ignorant of nature of things, and thus he feared that we would not achieve the potential he'd mapped out for us"

I am not sure that God did actually 'map out a potential' for us, but the rest of what you wrote (which I have quoted) is pretty much what I believe.

Add to that reincarnation, and it would seem as if our beliefs are pretty much paralllel. I believe that Jesu Christ's incarnation here was the last one before he 're-joined God forever', which is what I believe we will all do at some time - ie when we have become 'perfect enough'.

As far as my deviation from yours (in believing in reincarnation is concerned), the logic behind the idea is that there is no way that we humans can be put through every test possible (to qualify for God-likeness) in one incarnation; my other reasons are because of what I would call strong indication that there is reincarnation.

Get OUT of my brain! Out! Out!

Wow. That pretty much sums up my beliefs right there. Bingo. Well-articulated.

Respectfully,

Cricket

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